US 2024 Presidential Election

The Rogue Wolf

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Agema

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I worked with a guy who supported Trump before the 2016 election. He once said that if he was ever a boss, on his first day he would just randomly fire an employee just to establish how tough of a boss he would be. I'm guessing thats their mentality, establish dominance by going after a weak target to show how serious they are and once one fall the other should "fall in line".
Sure, but some people are fucking idiots.

That guy knows so little about being the boss that he doesn't even comprehend that many bosses don't actually have that power (legally, at least).

You can also go away and read up on management / leadership styles, and pretty much every guide you will find is going to tell you that that sort of stunt is characteristic of a leader who is more likely to crater his team's output than increase it.
 

Silvanus

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That assessment is the historic commitment translated into practice. "These changes are a result of the modifications to the hiring process for ATC developed by the Barrier Analysis Implementation team."
That sentence doesn't indicate that. It's a vague statement to the effect that the hiring process was modified (in some unspecified way) by that team's work. That's it.

What were the recommendations in the Barrier Analysis Report?

The only thing different between the report recommendations and the final implementation is that they made it a separate assessment rather than an addition to the ATSAT. They deliberately designed a test to cull the majority of applicants with priority for diversity.
This is a gigantic stretch. Those recommendations you've quoted categorically do not suggest what you've accused them of-- the use of proxy characteristics in the questionnaire to target and weed out qualified candidates who aren't from minority groups.

Look at what those recommendations actually, directly suggest-- solid actions-- regarding diversity. "Consider [diversity] a high priority". "Consider RNO and gender diversity [alongside cognitive ability]'". The only other reference is that the multi-hurdle, front-loaded approach they suggest can also "maximise diversity while minimising reductions to criterion-related validity", which isn't a suggested action to do with diversity, but one potential benefit of the overall approach.

Broadly it just says their approach (multi-hurdle, front-loaded) promotes diversity and that diversity should be considered during evaluation. Nothing about proxy characteristics. Nothing about unfair exclusion.

I am not making leaps here, I am reading their words.
No, you're not. You're reading into them.
 

tstorm823

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Oh will you stop with that horseshit. We're talking about what the data shows as observable impact. Whatever opinions you, I, or anyone else have on the test are utterly irrelevant. Your claim was that the numbers showed a causal link between the test and the number of hires. So naturally that means that what makes or breaks the case is entirely contained in those numbers and the factors that affected them.
Shall I try this a third time?
I said:
I don't think there is sufficient justification to treat the assessment as a sole cause of the drop, but rejecting thousands of qualified applicants while being increasingly understaffed seems to be negligent at best.
That I said that in my first post on the subject, and you think you've refuted my point by showing other potential causes shows you don't understand what I'm saying. Your attempt at identifying what my claim was above directly contradicts what I said from the beginning, and it's hardly surprising that you miss the point when you are deliberately avoiding the central point.
I suppose you are right on a technicality that it is avoidable: someone interpreting his comments could be extraordinarily stupid or deliberately refuse to think them through. In which case, which one are you angling for?

I think what you might mean is that Trump didn't say that controller error was definitely the cause of the crash. He also offered up other possibilities (such as the inevitability that accidents happen, or pilot error). But, you know, needlessly slandering people is probably one of the reasons that leaders conventionally wait for investigation results.
Here's what I might suggest in as specific a way I can: when he emphasizes a directive to hire the disabled for this role, you hear that as an insult to both air traffic controllers and the disabled. When a Trump supporter hears him say that, they hear it as a criticism of the priorities of the Biden Administration (assuming they don't know anything beyond what they've heard recently). The Trump voters are not going to buy into the idea that a critical safety role is the proper place for explicit diversity hires, and the vast majority of those voters are not going to see that as a fault of women, the disabled, or racial minorities. Rather, they see it as the fault of an American left that takes the normal workings of society (the price of eggs) for granted and focuses their efforts instead on social justice activism. The target of Trump's ire in those comments was almost certainly Democrats. Not unambiguously, I'll give you that, but i doubt he says Biden so many times by accident.
That sentence doesn't indicate that. It's a vague statement to the effect that the hiring process was modified (in some unspecified way) by that team's work. That's it.
It's line 1 of the document that added the assessment to the hiring process, labeled "reason for change". Cut the crap or you're not getting another response.
Nothing about proxy characteristics. Nothing about unfair exclusion.
Not "proxy characteristics", just "additional predictors".

Do you think it's a coincidence that the barrier analysis report recommended outreach efforts to the national community, and that " RNO and gender diversity should be explicitly considered", and then the assessment had a question about where you learned about the job opportunity, and gave maximum points only to those who found out through public notice or advertisement?
 

Agema

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Here's what I might suggest in as specific a way I can: when he emphasizes a directive to hire the disabled for this role, you hear that as an insult to both air traffic controllers and the disabled. When a Trump supporter hears him say that, they hear it as a criticism of the priorities of the Biden Administration (assuming they don't know anything beyond what they've heard recently).
Yes, I'm aware that many Trump supporters revel in, don't think about or actively blind themselves to how much of a piece of shit Trump is. It's very much suggested by the term "Trump supporter", and an important psychological defence to avoid feeling awkward about voting for him.
 
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tstorm823

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Yes, I'm aware that many Trump supporters revel in, don't think about or actively blind themselves to how much of a piece of shit Trump is. It's very much suggested by the term "Trump supporter", and an important psychological defence to avoid feeling awkward about voting for him.
Well, at least you will never have to worry about people needing to infer insults in what you say.
 

Silvanus

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It's line 1 of the document that added the assessment to the hiring process, labeled "reason for change".
So what? It remains a general statement of priority. It still doesn't say a damn word about the actual actions you're alleging they took. And still less about the outcomes you're attributing to them.

Not "proxy characteristics", just "additional predictors".
Not proxy characteristics? That's not what you were saying here: "they can use proxies for race or gender that reach their desired outcomes".

Do you think it's a coincidence that the barrier analysis report recommended outreach efforts to the national community, and that " RNO and gender diversity should be explicitly considered", and then the assessment had a question about where you learned about the job opportunity, and gave maximum points only to those who found out through public notice or advertisement?
I mean.... that could quite easily be coincidence. The connection between those two things is pretty tenuous.

To be clear, it'd be a generally poor idea to reward candidates for how they heard about the role, regardless. I'm hoping you didn't take that detail from that blog and have some better substantiation.
 

tstorm823

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I mean.... that could quite easily be coincidence. The connection between those two things is pretty tenuous.
Let's go with lol.
I'm hoping you didn't take that detail from that blog and have some better substantiation.
I have multiple big pdfs open on my computer, eyes to read them, and a brain to process. That is where the information I'm giving you is from. I'm not going to take anything about this as gospel without reaching the primary sources myself.
1738549335305.png
 

Silvanus

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Let's go with lol.
Yes, when somebody is so wholly down the rabbit hole, the mundane or simple explanation seems impossible or laughable.

Looking at the options, my first thought would be that they're trying to prioritise people who're applying without prior connection. Then we have the fact the pass req was a specific score rather than proportional or by percentile. That tells us two things: 1) the pass req may have been calculated independently of some scoring questions (a common practice when employers want to reward something without disadvantaging the rest of the cohort) and 2) people scoring on that question have no impact on people who don't.

I have multiple big pdfs open on my computer, eyes to read them, and a brain to process. That is where the information I'm giving you is from. I'm not going to take anything about this as gospel without reaching the primary sources myself.
View attachment 12761
That's fine. I hope you can forgive scepticism, since the source you provided to begin with was already misrepresenting the process a bit.
 
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Satinavian

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Ok, i must say the US democracy was already in trouble with the blatantly partisan Supreme Court and having both chambers controlled by the same party as the president.

But now we get reports of Musk and his cronies operating the treasury, Trump deciding the US budget via executive orders without even bothering congress (remember : the congress alone is supposed to control federal money), various other departments also taken over by Musks cronies, all non entry level FBI personal fired and replaced with MAGA recruits without policing experience, the Secret Service busy with hunting children who posted something bad about Trump on social media, scores of inspector generals fired to get rid of any oversight (also expressly illegal) ...

This is just a fascist takeover exactly like the infamous ones in the past.
 

Agema

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Well, at least you will never have to worry about people needing to infer insults in what you say.
I actually would afford people a certain level of respect for transparency: if someone wishes to say that they think Trump will be good for the USA and thus will support him despite the corruption and misconduct. If you want your team to win, and you understand politics is truly about raw power not norms and ethics and laws, you can just say so. If you think the USA was doing well under Trump and that the overall governance was worth the elements of corruption and chaos, you can just say so. There is a certainly a level of respect that can be afforded for honesty.

Where I have problem is when they keep pretending Trump isn't a crook, and his ethical mis-steps and corruption aren't - flying in the face of facts and reason and his past conduct, even to the level of absurdity. It's things like to deny or diminish the fact that he is a fraudster, a sex attacker, abuses power for self-aggrandisement, etc. Like downplaying of the 2020 election, of which Jan 6th was just a part.

That can be sheer chutzpah - for instance people like Trump himself who believe the only virtue is winning, and any tactic to get a step closer is worth it. But for some, it's the hypocrisy and self-delusion of refusing to apply standards they like to think they believe in. They want to think they are moral people, but deep down they know the sleaze of the administration they supported sticks to them too, and it makes them feel dirty. Ultimately, the tragedy of this is that this isn't dishonesty and bullshit to try to convince the opponents of Trump, it's the dishonesty and bullshit those Trump supporters are telling themselves to salve their own psychological pain for supporting a moral abscess.