US 2024 Presidential Election

[tstorm823]

So, therefore, again you are effectively arguing here that the ICE agent was justified in shooting her, contrary to your earlier claim. So which do you actually believe?

An act of justified violence in not justified by how much fault the target of the violence bears. It doesn't matter if the person brought it on themselves, it does not matter if they deserve to have violence performed against them, all that matters is the immediate endangerment to others and the ability of an act of violence to eliminate that danger.

If an idiot jumps off a roof trying to land in a pool, falls short, and breaks his leg, in a sense he got what he deserved, he did it to himself. That is in no way stating that if an idiot jumps off a roof, the police are allowed to go break his leg.

Which isn't when he fires. He fires when the wheels are pointing away from him, when he's already plainly to the left of the vehicle's front.

That happened in like a quarter of a second.

Here is one of those human empathy moments. Actually try to put yourself in the mind of both the shooter and the woman, see if you can understand both of them.

 

[Silvanus]

That happened in like a quarter of a second.

Here is one of those human empathy moments. Actually try to put yourself in the mind of both the shooter and the woman, see if you can understand both of them.

Before he fires, he walks in front of the car from the other side. It starts to move when he's roughly at its corner, is clearly turning, and attains a speed of perhaps 1 or 2 MPH. And you're telling me the sheer fear of that situation drove him to shoot her, and then continue shooting twice more through the side window.

 

[Hades]

An act of justified violence in not justified by how much fault the target of the violence bears. It doesn't matter if the person brought it on themselves, it does not matter if they deserve to have violence performed against them, all that matters is the immediate endangerment to others and the ability of an act of violence to eliminate that danger.

If an idiot jumps off a roof trying to land in a pool, falls short, and breaks his leg, in a sense he got what he deserved, he did it to himself. That is in no way stating that if an idiot jumps off a roof, the police are allowed to go break his leg.

That happened in like a quarter of a second.

Here is one of those human empathy moments. Actually try to put yourself in the mind of both the shooter and the woman, see if you can understand both of them.

But we do understand him. He's a brownshirt on a powertrip. He knew he had all the power, and a malicious government backing him. And then he made the decission to abuse that situation to feel big and strong.

Him joining ICE to satisfy his violent urges on some brown people would be speculation, but extremely plausible given what we know of ICE's conduct. What is not speculation is that this brownshirt absolutely wasn't prepared to wield the power and ''legitimacy'' of violence this administration promotes. That's just a fact. He shouldn't have been anywhere near such power.

This all wasn't a horrible mistake but the natural outcome of leaving a questionable organisation without much oversight, and them having a code of conduct that seems to promote violence over peacekeeping. It was always going to lead to this sooner rather than later.

Its worth pointing out that the murderer and his backers do not paint this as an unclear situation with a lot of nuance and that a justice call went unfortunately wrong. No, the worst people in America say the murderer did nothing wrong and that the victim was just a loony terrorist. If they don't say there's any nuance here then why should WE?

Not to mention that they seem to pretty openly parade their extreme malice. Slandering the victim, trampling her memorial and shielding the murderer. Nothing suggests THEY view it as an unfortunate mistake.

 

[Agema]

An act of justified violence in not justified by how much fault the target of the violence bears. It doesn't matter if the person brought it on themselves, it does not matter if they deserve to have violence performed against them, all that matters is the immediate endangerment to others and the ability of an act of violence to eliminate that danger.

What on earth do think the argument of justifiable self-defence is, if not that the victim brought the violence on themselves? Imagine a prosecution take such a case into a court and say "The victim caused this". They may as well drop the case there and then because they've effectively just told the jury to side with the defence.

You might better say that the victim's behaviour contributed to the incident (presumably then explaining why it does not exculpate the accused), which can accept problematic behaviour without carrying the same force of blame. But if you walk around making bald statements like "Her actions definitely caused the event..." you are making an extremely strong statement pushing out a lot of blame. It's not just an exaggeration, it's inconsistent with your conclusion.

 

[BrawlMan]

It's not just an exaggeration, it's inconsistent with your conclusion.

What else are you all expecting from tstorm at this point? That's been his constant mo since day fucking one.

​

 

[Hades]

What else are you all expecting from tstorm at this point? That's been his constant mo since day fucking one.

​

So what came up on the killer? Not so much interested in his name as much as if his career has shown similar violent conduct in the past, or if he acts like a fascist freak on social media.

 

[Agema]

So what came up on the killer? Not so much interested in his name as much as if his career has shown similar violent conduct in the past, or if he acts like a fascist freak on social media.

Yes. There are lots of questions that can be asked about law enforcement agencies generally. US law enforcement agencies are not exactly famed for low violence solutions, de-escalation and the like.

Apparently, ICE had a massive problem after inception with a huge proportion of its officers cited for serious infractions relative to other agencies. Eventually this settled down. The risk with the massive expansion under Trump is that many of its agents have been hired quickly with low oversight and modest training. If so likely a high proportion of recruits are error-prone, or at worst more fundamentally unsuitable for the job. The obvious concern then is that the federal authorities have very little interest in appropriate oversight, so illegal and abusive conduct may not be tackled and become embedded and thoroughly institutionalised in the agency.

 

[Schadrach]

https://giftarticle.ft.com/giftarticle/actions/redeem/594fb239-3864-46d6-b112-07cb14086bad

I'll believe it when I actually see it but it's amazing for how awful basically everything Trump does, he still manages to have an excellent idea every once in a while (and outflanks Democrats on the issue).

View attachment 14136

He's so full of so many awful ideas that the occasional good ones are shocking. Also, shouldn't this be anathema to typical GOP thinking, at least pre-MAGA? Watching them fawn over it is such a beautiful demonstration that it is, in fact, a cult.

 

[tstorm823]

Before he fires, he walks in front of the car from the other side. It starts to move when he's roughly at its corner, is clearly turning, and attains a speed of perhaps 1 or 2 MPH. And you're telling me the sheer fear of that situation drove him to shoot her, and then continue shooting twice more through the side window.

I'm not telling you anything, I want you to try empathy for yourself.

But we do understand him. He's a brownshirt on a powertrip.

No.

You might better say that the victim's behaviour contributed to the incident (presumably then explaining why it does not exculpate the accused), which can accept problematic behaviour without carrying the same force of blame.

The blame is important, though. The lesson that should be learned from this is to not barricade the road in front of law enforcement and then try to evade arrest in your car while surrounded by said law enforcement, where the message someone like Hades here is receiving is that ICE are Nazis that want to murder people anyway so you may as well run them over.

 

[tstorm823]

He's so full of so many awful ideas that the occasional good ones are shocking. Also, shouldn't this be anathema to typical GOP thinking, at least pre-MAGA? Watching them fawn over it is such a beautiful demonstration that it is, in fact, a cult.

Alternatively, you could say that parties change membership as generations are born and die, so it may be totally new people reacting to a completely different set of circumstances, and may have totally different policy positions on something that is not at all core to the party's beliefs

 

[tstorm823]

If they don't say there's any nuance here then why should WE?

Ask yourself why you insist on being the worst person? You say they are the worst people in the country, and then your standard of behavior for yourself is to be as bad on purpose. Why?

 

[Silvanus]

I'm not telling you anything, I want you to try empathy for yourself.

You first.

I have mentally put myself in the position of someone at the corner of a very slow-moving vehicle turning away from me, posing no credible danger to myself. I would take a casual step to the right, all that even could be necessary to save myself a light bruise. It would not ever occur to me shoot the driver. Never in a hundred years would it occur to me to then keep fucking firing when i'm well out of the way.

Now you. Put yourself in the shoes of those who lost their mother or wife. Empathise with how they may feel knowing people are blaming her for her own killing, because her car moved a few feet close to a trigger-happy ICE agent.

The idea of you preaching to anyone about empathy is utterly noxious.

 

[tippy2k2]

He's so full of so many awful ideas that the occasional good ones are shocking. Also, shouldn't this be anathema to typical GOP thinking, at least pre-MAGA? Watching them fawn over it is such a beautiful demonstration that it is, in fact, a cult.

It's just especially unexpected because Trump has so many fingers in the real estate game (or did at least) that I'd think he'd be very against something like this (either because it would hurt his investments or hurt the rich fucks he hangs with).

But who knows. I imagine this bill will pass after we get our $5,000 Doge checks and our $2,000 Tariff checks so we shall see.

 

[Hades]

Ask yourself why you insist on being the worst person? You say they are the worst people in the country, and then your standard of behavior for yourself is to be as bad on purpose. Why?

Considering I'm neither a rapist nor trying to steal European land or overturn elections I don't see much similarities with the current White House

 

[Hades]

No.

yes

 

[tstorm823]

You first.

I have mentally put myself in the position of someone at the corner of a very slow-moving vehicle turning away from me, posing no credible danger to myself.

Try harder.

 

[thebobmaster]

And then you have the Vice President saying shit like this.



"Vance also asserted that the media has failed to cover that Good was “part of a broader left-wing network to attack, to dox, to assault and to make it impossible for our ICE officers to do their job.”

“If the media wants to tell the truth,” he added, “they ought to tell the truth that a group of left-wing radicals have been working tirelessly, sometimes using domestic terror techniques to try to make it impossible for the president of the United States to do what the American people elected him to do, which is enforce our immigration laws.”"

Vance says death of Minnesota woman killed by ICE was 'a tragedy of her own making'

In a fiery tirade, Vance defended the ICE officer who fatally shot Renee Nicole Good and claimed that she had been "brainwashed."

www.nbcnews.com

 

[BrawlMan]

Try harder.

How about you actually be a better person, and not constantly suck up to a dictators who do not give a single solitary fuck about you. To them, you've just another's faceless sacrifice like anybody else that's not rich or elite. Even then that doesn't always save them either.

The police chief is lying out of his butt. There was no police on the scene until after the 911 call. This dude is being so vague cause he don't want to get the fury of of ICE, nor get in trouble with the mayor, who it is against Trump and his thugs.

Weiterleitungshinweis

Misconduct expert says state has the right to charge ICE officer who killed Renée Good

Alas, the FBI's takeover of the investigation could make it difficult.

www.motherjones.com

A different shooting happened on new year's eve.

Why No Charges? Friends, Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty ICE Officer Ask After New Year’s Eve Shooting.

Keith Porter, 43, had been firing a gun into the air to celebrate before he was killed, family members say. If the shooter weren’t an ICE agent,

capitalandmain.com

 

[Silvanus]

Try harder.

Don't really think a lack of empathy is what prevents people from justifying unnecessary killing.

Think its almost the exact opposite, in fact.

 

[Hades]

And then you have the Vice President saying shit like this.



"Vance also asserted that the media has failed to cover that Good was “part of a broader left-wing network to attack, to dox, to assault and to make it impossible for our ICE officers to do their job.”

“If the media wants to tell the truth,” he added, “they ought to tell the truth that a group of left-wing radicals have been working tirelessly, sometimes using domestic terror techniques to try to make it impossible for the president of the United States to do what the American people elected him to do, which is enforce our immigration laws.”"

Vance says death of Minnesota woman killed by ICE was 'a tragedy of her own making'

In a fiery tirade, Vance defended the ICE officer who fatally shot Renee Nicole Good and claimed that she had been "brainwashed."

www.nbcnews.com

Ah the vermin again slandering the victim as a terrorist. That further just decreases the odds that this really was an unfortunate accident. This is the administration empowering their brownshirt and reacting with glee when they murder the opposition. It’s about showcasing their dominance over the public. They want to make clear their brownshirts can murder you on a whim, and that the government will openly lie that your a terrorist who deserved it. They know it’s a lie, and they know everyone else knows it too

Vance might be a worse person than Trump who at least has the dubious defense of being mentally ill. He has no more knowledge of what's right and wrong than a goat. But Vance doesn't have that excuse. He likely does know the difference and makes the active choice to be evil.