US Military Testing Jet-Mounted Lasers in 2014

[waj9876]

...Yes. Fucking yes.

Now it's only a matter of time before science finds a way to make me immortal. And video games become so realistic it's as if you actually are in the game. MMOs will be so badass when that finally happens.

We are in the future, it took a bit longer than those from the 40s and 50s thought. But we're finally starting.

 

[LtWigglesworth]

Laser-equipped fighters could also take out submarine-based platforms before they can launch, and would deter the more traditional bomber dropping a dumb nuke method.

In terms of NK and Iran launching... it really depends. NK really wants a chance to project it's power, and the government and military still have some holdouts there who believe they're still fighting the Cold War and that the Soviets are still supporting them in the ultimate goal of destroying capitalism. And in terms of Iran, I think cooler heads would prevail in terms of using the bomb against the US. Using it against Israel is the real worry, which many Iranians would not heasitate to do. Iran's current ruling party knows it means the end of Iran if they so much as point a launcher at Israel, but if they get a working bomb and their populace finds out, they may risk it just to avoid being dragged out in the streets and hung.

In terms of strikes, drone strikes are very impercise compared to a laser shot. The advantage of the drone strike is that it can take out a lot of people if it needs to. However, it you end up shooting at a civilian due to faulty information, a laser offers less risk for collateral damage, at the expense of only affecting one target at a time. Instead of shooting at target only to find out you blew up a village that was miles away from any terrorist leader, like what happens with a drone strike, you only leave one incenerated body and a bunch of angry villagers, but the entire populace as a hole could probably care less about what happens to Saif the Cattle Farmer.

A few issues with the issue of lasers as ICBM defense.
1) If you're faced with a full launch of missiles, you'll have a huge amount of targets to detect, track, and destroy:
Lets consider what would happen if China launched its full arsenal. ( Ignoring the fact that the Chinese are lead by logical people and would never sign their own death warrant in that way ).
The Chinese have "only" 200-300 warheads. These would be mounted in the 90 ICBMs that they possess. Therefore you have to track and destroy 90 targets in the launch phase. Once the warheads separate from the missile body you will have to track the warheads and all the decoys, and try to distinguish between the two. You now have about 500-700 targets to track and kill. This is the phase of flight that your lasers will have to operate on. Engaging 500-700 hypersonic targets, spread across the United States' airspace in the minute or so available will be an impossible challenge.

Remember what happens if only one gets through.

Of course that's only Chinas small arsenal. Defending against Russia's 2700 warheads would be completely, utterly impossible.

2) Killing a warhead isn't that easy:
Warheads are designed to re-enter the atmosphere from sub-orbital space and at hypersonic speeds. This means that they are heat-shielded that same as a space capsule, and a point heat of, say 2500 degress celcius, will do nothing. Also the warheads will be spinning to stabilise them. This means that the laser now paints a far larger area of the warhead, and so heats the warhead up by less.
The coating of the warhead can also be adjusted. A mirrored coating ( Or any coating as far away from a pure "black body" as possible) will greatly reduce the head transferred by the laser.

3) Issues with the laser system.
These are mainly engineering ones, such as effective tracking and energy storage. Throwing a lot of money will help. A bigger one is scattering and thermal blooming causing the laser's effectiveness to drop markedly, especially over range. What happens for example if there is heavy cloud or rain on the day that the missiles come?

An SR 71 will be significantly lacking in payload capacity and could never carry a laser with enough power for missile defence, even if they hadn't been retired in 1998.

With regards to destroying a submarine system before launch. No. Just no. No laser will penetrate the 50 odd metres of water they can launch beneath.

I think a bomber, even a B2 or a TU 160 wouldn't need a laser as deterrence. A Patriot or S400 missile does that just fine...

Neither Iran nor NK would be stupid enough to launch a nuke against anyone. As soon as they launch there would be a massive US nuclear retaliation and they know it. The nuclear programmes are merely saber rattling in order to shore up their own regime, or to use as a bargaining chip in diplomatic discussions.
Also don't forget that Israel is a nuclear state.

The use of lasers as point defence for fighters is interesting but I can see many challenges. If anyone is interested I could list some.

 

[Do4600]

LASERs flash boil fluid in the surrounding tissue of the burnt away flesh. People hit with powerful enough LASERs will pop literally like bloody zits.

That's just silly, the heat from a laser is localized and not nearly powerful enough to cause that. People are hit by average lightning bolts that are 2,500 times more powerful than that laser and escape with a few third degree burns, and lightning heats the surrounding air to 54,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The LIPC would cause more damage than these lasers.

 

[Do4600]

Accidental double post, please delete/disregard.

 

[Vareoth]

If the US military stopped spending so much money on ways to kill brown people they might actually be able to get their economy back on track.

I do always have to laugh at all the euros who cant read

> Lasers used to shoot down missiles and projectiles!
> OMG STOP SPENDING MONEY ON WAYS TO KILL BROWN PEOPLE!

And they wonder why no one takes them seriously when discussing things relating to the US.

When you start to generalize an entire continent you know you have reached a new level of ignorance and stupidity.

 

[Vareoth]

If the US military stopped spending so much money on ways to kill brown people they might actually be able to get their economy back on track.

I do always have to laugh at all the euros who cant read

> Lasers used to shoot down missiles and projectiles!
> OMG STOP SPENDING MONEY ON WAYS TO KILL BROWN PEOPLE!

And they wonder why no one takes them seriously when discussing things relating to the US.

When you start to generalize an entire continent you know you have reached a new level of ignorance and stupidity.

Just like said folks do when they go 'MURICA you mean?

Exactly like that. Why would you lower yourself to such a level?

 

[Vareoth]

If the US military stopped spending so much money on ways to kill brown people they might actually be able to get their economy back on track.

I do always have to laugh at all the euros who cant read

> Lasers used to shoot down missiles and projectiles!
> OMG STOP SPENDING MONEY ON WAYS TO KILL BROWN PEOPLE!

And they wonder why no one takes them seriously when discussing things relating to the US.

When you start to generalize an entire continent you know you have reached a new level of ignorance and stupidity.

Just like said folks do when they go 'MURICA you mean?

Exactly like that. Why would you lower yourself to such a level?

Because its fun of course! Plus I have to lower myself to their level from time to time so that when I do argue with such I am not beaten by their vast experience.

So it's a classic example of know thy enemy? That's some ancient wisdom right there. However, take care to not drown in the dense oceans of stupidity that flow trough the interwebz.

 

[TornadoADV]

LASERs flash boil fluid in the surrounding tissue of the burnt away flesh. People hit with powerful enough LASERs will pop literally like bloody zits.

That's just silly, the heat from a laser is localized and not nearly powerful enough to cause that. People are hit by average lightning bolts that are 2,500 times more powerful than that laser and escape with a few third degree burns, and lightning heats the surrounding air to 54,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The LIPC would cause more damage than these lasers.

LASERs are sustained, directed light. Lightning is instantaneous, random electricity. What makes the human body resistant against sudden heat changes (heat sink in terms of water mass in the body), becomes a liability in sustained heat changes. A LASER will literally boil a person alive inside their own skin before bursting.

 

[Spartan448]

-snip of Zeus-

But the points you state are exactly why it's important that we continue developing these lasers. Theoretically, if we built a laser powerfull enough, it could be very easy to penetrate the warheads. There's only so much armor you can put on something that needs to explode without restricting it's blast radius. If the targets can be identified before they split, than you could theoretically have emplacements in position to track and destroy them as they split, in theory, destroying one in midair and causing it to detonate should take care of at least some others. In terms of Russia's nearly 3000 warheads, the more warheads you launch, the more crowded the airspace is, meaning it's easier to take out the nuclear attack by using heat to induce midair detonations where they won't affect civilian populations.

In addition, you point out that neither China or Russia has cause, nor the stupidity required to actually start a nuclear war. Lasers at this point in time are more for defending against smaller nations like NK and Iran, which would launch a nuke given the chance, NK just to show that it's still relevant, and Iran would probably launch one at Israel. I do not think that any of the Arab nations have gotten over the whole "eliminate the nation of Israel" thing. In addition, giving laser defense platforms to India and Pakistan would prevent them from going nuclear on each other.

Yes, at this stage in the game, a laser is not the best weapon for nuclear payload interception. However, going into the future, lasers are going to be an important part of making nuclear weapons obsolete, and making the world a safer place (No-one can launch artillery/missile strikes at each other if the shells and rockets get shot down each time).

Also, it's cool to be able to say "Guess what??? WE HAVE LAZORS N00B!!1!!!11!!!!1!!!"

 

[LtWigglesworth]

snip

1) There is no way that heating a nuclear warhead will cause it to explode. That is pure fantasy. For a nuke to detonate the explosives and explosive lenses that surround the first fission stage must detonate at precisely the right time. If you manage to destroy one incoming warhead with laser, no matter how powerful that laser is, you will only destroy that one.

2) The energy released by a nuke is huge. You could give it the armour of a tank and it wouldn't reduce the blast radius. Infact it would likely become more deadly as you now have ,say, another tonne of radioactive particles as fallout.

Unfortunately, the odds are skewed in favour of the attacker in the ICBM/ ICBM defence game

 

[LtWigglesworth]

LASERs flash boil fluid in the surrounding tissue of the burnt away flesh. People hit with powerful enough LASERs will pop literally like bloody zits.

That's just silly, the heat from a laser is localized and not nearly powerful enough to cause that. People are hit by average lightning bolts that are 2,500 times more powerful than that laser and escape with a few third degree burns, and lightning heats the surrounding air to 54,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The LIPC would cause more damage than these lasers.

LASERs are sustained, directed light. Lightning is instantaneous, random electricity. What makes the human body resistant against sudden heat changes (heat sink in terms of water mass in the body), becomes a liability in sustained heat changes. A LASER will literally boil a person alive inside their own skin before bursting.

Well, we can actually calculate what it would take to boil a human alive. If the average person is 70kg, and we assume that we're only heating the water till it turns to steam, that person is 70% water. So we have a total of 49kg of water to heat.

Starting from an initial temperature of 37C. To heat up to 100C would require 263 kJ, or 0.263 seconds standing in front of a 1MW laser, assuming all heat is transferred to the body, and distributed evenly. To boil the person would require an additional 81.6 MW. So for a 1MW laser to make a person boil and pop like a zit you'd have to keep it on them for almost a minute and a half. At least.

Shooting people is easier.

 

[LtWigglesworth]

I should really have rolled these all into one, but never mind...

I think a nuclear free world is a fantasy. The cat is out of the box and the tremendous force multiplier that a nuke is means that we'll never put the cat back in.
As soon as NK (which has them) or Iran get a nuke, they become a country of some gravity. No-one would give a shit about NK if it wasn't for the nuclear program.
So as smaller states get them the traditional powers will want to keep a reduced arsenal as a deterrence.
And NK's generals like to live and they realise that as soon as they launch, they will die in a retaliation. To stay relevant they can keep testing weapons in mines and failing at missile tests. It keeps them relevant without getting them turned to radioactive ash.

 

[TornadoADV]

LASERs flash boil fluid in the surrounding tissue of the burnt away flesh. People hit with powerful enough LASERs will pop literally like bloody zits.

That's just silly, the heat from a laser is localized and not nearly powerful enough to cause that. People are hit by average lightning bolts that are 2,500 times more powerful than that laser and escape with a few third degree burns, and lightning heats the surrounding air to 54,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The LIPC would cause more damage than these lasers.

LASERs are sustained, directed light. Lightning is instantaneous, random electricity. What makes the human body resistant against sudden heat changes (heat sink in terms of water mass in the body), becomes a liability in sustained heat changes. A LASER will literally boil a person alive inside their own skin before bursting.

Well, we can actually calculate what it would take to boil a human alive. If the average person is 70kg, and we assume that we're only heating the water till it turns to steam, that person is 70% water. So we have a total of 49kg of water to heat.

Starting from an initial temperature of 37C. To heat up to 100C would require 263 kJ, or 0.263 seconds standing in front of a 1MW laser, assuming all heat is transferred to the body, and distributed evenly. To boil the person would require an additional 81.6 MW. So for a 1MW laser to make a person boil and pop like a zit you'd have to keep it on them for almost a minute and a half. At least.

Shooting people is easier.

But that's the rub, you're not trying to heat all the water, just the water in the local area will boil off almost instantly, causing hideous wounds as the flesh quickly expands and explodes, exploding limbs off bodies, popping heads and causing guts to burst.

 

[LtWigglesworth]

But that's the rub, you're not trying to heat all the water, just the water in the local area will boil off almost instantly, causing hideous wounds as the flesh quickly expands and explodes, exploding limbs off bodies, popping heads and causing guts to burst.

That's assuming:
a) significant penetration by the laser.
b) No charring that reduces damage.
c) no transfer of heat away from site of impact.
d) That the human skin somehow contains the steam that has built up allowing a small steam explosion.

What you will have is a small, but deep, charred wound and severe burns in the near vicinity. The lethality will depend on where it hits; Head, neck, lung/heart region - severe injuries, likely fatal. Limbs and extremities - damage to limbs, incapacitation, need for medevac.

If you want to make people pop, then for an aircraft or AFV you'd be better off with a 30mm autocannon firing HE rounds. It would be cheaper, more reliable, more durable, and probably lighter than a laser with all the necessary energy storage. Plus it'll sound more terrifying.

 

[You Can't Take the Sky From Me]

An AR-15 isn't going to be much help against an ICBM with a nuclear payload. The whole lazors things is mostly about developing a defensive platform for feasable use in defending against nuclear payloads, without much risk to the environment because of atomic radiation. With North Korea and Iran getting closer and closer to nukes, and getting more belligerant by the second, developing something that can safely and reliably shoot down a nuke is the differance between a feasable way to finally phase-out nuclear weapons (due to being obsolete), and some idiot lighting a match and starting a global nuclear war.

Also, adapting lasers for smaller platforms means a drone strike can be a precise thing instead of "We'll bomb this village and hope that the blast wave, fireball, and shrapnel don't kill all of the children this time."

Hey you, Spartan guy, stop ruining everyone's good, clean, American bashing by bringing logic and likely outcomes of developing technology into the debate. All is does is make you look reasonable and this is the Internet there's no place for reason here, dammit!

*Takes a bow*

Sir, you are correct, this IS the Internet. And what, my good friend, is more appropriate for the internet than causing chaps such as your good self to inexplicably become irritated when someone dares to use reason? Is it not true that the point of doing this on the internet is for the most part "For teh lulz"? It is times like these, when I read reactions like yours, that I put my feet on the table, adjust my top hat and monicle, pour myself a glass of Chateau Piccard, circa 2360, and enjoy the lulz that those reactions bring me. I then chuckle to myself and ask my butler Jeeves to ready my flying 24-karat gold Ferrari so that I will not be late for my dinner meeting with all past, present, and future world leaders and discuss various things that people who do not use reason on the internet are forbidden to hear.

You, I like you, even if you do insist on using logic on the internet. You at least seem to understand that a) Lasers on fighter jets is cool, and b) this is only the beginning, and that this is probably going somewhere. Also Chateau Piccard is overrated, go with Chateau d'Kirk or Janeway Estates, they're far less bossy.

 

[LtWigglesworth]

[

I would say silence would be almost as terrifying as loud noises.

You are standing around talking to Joe and Tim, suddenly Joe drops with a smoking hole in his head, no sound, no warning, then Tim drops next a second later.

I would be shitting myself personally

Haha well I would too. But loud noises can also stun and disorient, which is always useful.

Besides, a laser as a main weapon would be extremely vulnerable to small arms fire and shrapnel. Against a small shitty enemy like taliban insurgents, or the Iraqi army, that might not be a major difficulty, but against someone who understands the idea of combined arms those lenses would be at great risk of being cracked or shattered in an artillery barrage.

 

[TornadoADV]

But that's the rub, you're not trying to heat all the water, just the water in the local area will boil off almost instantly, causing hideous wounds as the flesh quickly expands and explodes, exploding limbs off bodies, popping heads and causing guts to burst.

That's assuming:
a) significant penetration by the laser.
b) No charring that reduces damage.
c) no transfer of heat away from site of impact.
d) That the human skin somehow contains the steam that has built up allowing a small steam explosion.

What you will have is a small, but deep, charred wound and severe burns in the near vicinity. The lethality will depend on where it hits; Head, neck, lung/heart region - severe injuries, likely fatal. Limbs and extremities - damage to limbs, incapacitation, need for medevac.

If you want to make people pop, then for an aircraft or AFV you'd be better off with a 30mm autocannon firing HE rounds. It would be cheaper, more reliable, more durable, and probably lighter than a laser with all the necessary energy storage. Plus it'll sound more terrifying.

Human skin is incredibly flexible and plaint, if it wasn't, women couldn't hold fetuses inside their wombs for one, nor could you grow muscle mass too fast or risk splitting your own skin. (Talk about a new meaning on "Getting Ripped"!)

Haha well I would too. But loud noises can also stun and disorient, which is always useful.

Besides, a laser as a main weapon would be extremely vulnerable to small arms fire and shrapnel. Against a small shitty enemy like taliban insurgents, or the Iraqi army, that might not be a major difficulty, but against someone who understands the idea of combined arms those lenses would be at great risk of being cracked or shattered in an artillery barrage.

That's why they are being put on aircraft and as PDLs for emplaced positions. You can put a THEL on top of the mobile LASER to intercept incoming artillery and bombs or the simple thing of having an armored shutter to protect from fragmentation.