Caverat said:
PhantomEcho said:
Caverat said:
This is being blown completely out of proportion. Consider the sources for these cries of the US turning into a police state, AlJazeera? Anonymous? If the US government were to do anything, I mean anything, they'd cry bloody murder and scream of the inherent wickedness of the fascist military industrial elite secretly running the US.
This Nation Defense Authorization Act(It's been enacted for each of the last 48 years) includes language in Section 1032 stating the intent is not to change existing common law, such as Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which ruled that lawful United States citizens have the right to challenge their detention before an impartial judge and military commission.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr1540rh/pdf/BILLS-112hr1540rh.pdf
There is a link to the bill, which should have been provided alongside the Al Jazeera article by the OP. If you're going to quote a biased news service, at least post access to the source of the controversy if it is a document.
PhantomEcho said:
First of all, yes. The Federal Government of the United States of America can, and has, illegally detained citizens and non-citizens alike for far longer than the passage of the Defense Authorization Act.
Yes, it is also an act which is written up, every year, time and time again.
Earlier this year, there was a lot of huffing and puffing over the wording of the bill. People were concerned that it gave the President too much power, and that it could be used, despite specifically stating otherwise, to justify the detention of United States citizens.
Earlier this week, the current Administration requested that the wording of the act be changed to SPECIFICALLY ALLOW the detention of United States citizens.
As of today, it has been announced that President Obama will NOT veto the bill.
Those are the facts as of this moment.
There is no hype, or alarmism involved. People have a very, very legitimate cause to be concerned.
Keep in mind that it is a fact, to some people, that vaccines cause autism. One person's facts can easily be another's bullshit.
Keep in mind that there is a difference between 'facts' that people make up, and 'facts' that are certifiable reports which can be verified by both mainstream and fringe sources.
Bullshit is telling people to bury their heads in the sand because it's all 'being overblown'. I'm not telling anybody to do anything. I'm also not presenting any information other than what factual accounts of what has happened, and even then only those that can be verified.
I leave it up to the reader to do their homework.
The people who are concerned have a very justifiable reason for being concerned.
Let's clarify some things you have stated, though:
"Consider the sources for these cries of the US turning into a police state, AlJazeera? Anonymous? If the US government were to do anything, I mean anything, they'd cry bloody murder and scream of the inherent wickedness of the fascist military industrial elite secretly running the US."
Who are the sources? Why... here's one:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/obama-supports-defense-bill-after-changes-to-detainee-provisions/
Oh, and another: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/obama-supports-defense-bill-after-changes-to-detainee-provisions/
Oh, and would you look at that... there's an entire site covering it right now: http://current.com/
Why? Because this is our country. Because these are laws that need to represent and DEFEND us... and it's important to UNDERSTAND what they do, and what they mean. As you can see, there's a lot of negativity out there. And there's good reason for it.
Because this is how countries BECOME fascist nations ruled by the industrial elites while the poor suffer under their heels. It's apathy. It's complete disregard that allows these states to rise up, often times from nations just like ours.
So rather than spouting your own brand of bias, how about you find some actual people talking about this? How about you find some sources of information who explain why this is all just a big misunderstanding? Wouldn't that be what reasonable people do in a society where we're free to make up our own minds... show both sides?
I've shown my sources of information. Where are yours? Who are they? What do they represent?
Let's keep people informed on what's going on.
Let's let people be the judge.
Secondly:
"This Nation Defense Authorization Act(It's been enacted for each of the last 48 years) includes language in Section 1032 stating the intent is not to change existing common law, such as Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which ruled that lawful United States citizens have the right to challenge their detention before an impartial judge and military commission."
Lawful United States citizens have the right to challenge their detention before an impartial judge and military commission?
Do you know what that means? That means they march you up in front of a military tribunal, without representation or a crime against which to challenge your guilt, before hauling you off to whatever 'terrorist imprisonment center' they're most fond of using that day.
That is not a trial. You are not being charged with a crime. You are not looking at being sentenced. You are being ACCUSED of, and I will try to quote it as closely as possible, 'actions or behaviors which identify you as being a possible terror suspect'.
Have you READ the list of what defines a possible terror suspect? I have. It's very, very vague. I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to compete against it... I'd be rotting in a hole somewhere by now.
But the most blatant issue with this provision of the act is that it is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It violates not only human rights, but the CONSTITUTIONAL rights of the American citizenry.
To tell people they are 'blowing this out of proportion' is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?
How -should- we react to laws that abjectly violate the founding principles of our government?
Perhaps you think we should all issue a sternly worded memo?
Oh, I know, perhaps we should... wait and see?
Wow, you really missed my point by a mile. The number of people or groups crying about something doesn't make it true, regardless how large that number is.
Even if it was, big deal. If you truly believe this is the death knell of the concept of rights and civil liberties in the US, fucking do something about it, you aren't impressing anyone with a rant that is effectively restating your opinion every sentence with a periodic 'These are facts, K thnx bye', especially on a damned video game enthusiasts' website.
Criticizing me for my own brand of bias, and asking me for my sources? I POSTED A LINK TO THE FUCKING BILL NUMBNUTS.
You leave it up to the reader to do their homework just like most anti-government outspoken folk, you state your opinion repeatedly in such a way that is extremely condescending to those that disagree with you, claim fact-bombs periodically, then stand back like you aren't calling a person an idiot for disagreeing with you.
Hey, I do the same thing. Here's why: This talk of the loss of civil liberties, and America becoming a police state has literally been going on since the sixties. Now around 50 frigging years of people harping on about it, and the only liberty I've seen vanish is that I can't smoke in fucking restaurants anymore. THE FUCKING HUMANITY.
Ah yes. I see that. You posted the link to the bill.
That justifies all of your commentary up until. Oh wait. It actually doesn't justify any of the commentary you provided. In fact, it's just a 600-page something bill, written in near-incomprehensible legalese.
I'm sure everyone here is just -thrilled- to go try to decipher it.
In the mean time, however, I'd love to see you provide some useful input.
The problem with your argument is that you don't actually make a point, not that I've failed to grasp it's immeasurable depth. Your argument is that it's all a bunch of blown out of proportion non-sense, and that everyone points out how it's terrible, are obviously all full of bullshit.
Because the very clear statement by the committee responsible for designing and passing the bill, in which he indicates that the bill no longer exempts United States citizens from being indefinitely detained by military personnel operating on American soil, held without being charged, and never given a proper trial with representation... somehow shouldn't alarm anyone.
Oh, no... I'm sure you're right and we should all just ignore what's going on around us, right?
There's no possible way that my statements here are at all intended to entice people into doing some research, making themselves aware of their government's actions and decisions, and formulating their own conclusions.
I mean, how ridiculous would it be if there was someone... just... one man... out there trying to convince people that he doesn't have ALL the right answers, but he does have enough common sense to pay attention, and so should they?
Crazy, huh? How about that?
I don't call people who disagree with me idiots, unless they actually display some semblance of idiocy. In fact, my first post presented nothing more than the clearly stated FACTS of the day, as they were reported by both mainstream news sources such as C-SPAN, FOX News, ABC, CNN, and etc.
Only at the very end, and in one sentence, did I suggest there was cause for concern. Because I believe that there is very legitimate cause for concern.
Now explain to me, where did I beat anyone over the head with that? Where did I go on a tirade about how stupid all of you folks are for 'not seeing the clear and present danger' right in front of us?
Was it in the part where I stated "Those are the facts as of now?"
Oh, oh! I know... was it in my response to your comment when I snarkily asked you if we should 'wait and see'? You know, like we've been doing since the sixties?
The irony, here, is that I am addressing the people of this nation... the REAL government... and telling them, of all the blasphemous things to do, to WATCH THE NEWS! TO READ THE NEWSPAPERS! TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN THEIR GOVERNMENTS and then to CRITICALLY ASSESS WHAT IT IS THEY'RE PAYING ATTENTION TO AND FORMULATE THEIR OWN OPINIONS.
Oh, horror! Aghast!
I'm such an anti-governmental rebel, telling people to read and think! How dare I? How dare I share a ONE SENTENCE OPINION in two posts entirely dedicated to suggesting people go out and LEARN MORE. Not from conspiracy sites. Not from anti-government hate blogs.
Oh hell no, I actually suggested that someone should look at Current TV... and ABC News... and the blog of a protester who got arrested. WHAT A MANIPULATIVE CAD I must be, suggesting folks watch C-SPAN and read newspapers and sort through the bias to formulate an opinion.
That's me, folks. I'm the Big Anti-Government Rebel... here to tell you that ARRESTING YOUR OWN PEOPLE AND DETAINING THEM INDEFINITELY, NO MATTER HOW BROADLY WRITTEN AND UNENFORCED... is never the kind of thing you want to see make it into laws in a country that still touts how FREE and SUPERIOR it is to the rest of the world.
You know, because my OTHER big rebellious decision would have been to... I don't know... NOT PASS THE LAW UNTIL THAT PARTICULAR SECTION WAS REMOVED, RATHER THAN PRESS THE COMMITTEE DRAFTING IT TO MAKE IT EVEN MORE BROAD... and then PASS IT ONCE THAT PARTICULAR SECTION WAS REMOVED AND THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE WERE DEFENDED... as per the job of all members of the federal government when they are sworn into office.
Oh look. I can use big capital letters to make my point too! Does that mean I'm right? Am I edgy and ironic yet?
Of course not, so spare me. It just means I make an attempt to be informed, and suggest other people be informed too. THE HUMANITY.
Whatever valid points you might have made, however, are lost... because like so many of our politicians nowadays... you just don't know how to make an argument without resorting to attacking your opponent.
And I have to admit, I'm surprised. I'd have thought you would have at least brought out the big guns and pointed out how 'Current TV is obviously a Left-Wing Progressive Slander Machine', or how 'ABC news is... well... who the hell watches ABC anymore?'... but no. The best you have is to call me one of those 'anti-government outspoken folks', and suggest I do something?
Well, here's a news-flash for you... but SPEAKING OUT... is doing something. So is my choice on who to vote for, and what laws to support. But it doesn't really matter if one man stands up and says enough is enough.
We're a nation of people. A nation of people who have to move in unison if anything is to get done. So between all the OTHER things I do which I'm sure you also don't count as 'doing anything about it'... I spread a simple message to people.
Factual information.
Here, let's take a look at my 'rant' as you called it:
"First of all, yes. The Federal Government of the United States of America can, and has, illegally detained citizens and non-citizens alike for far longer than the passage of the Defense Authorization Act.
Yes, it is also an act which is written up, every year, time and time again.
Earlier this year, there was a lot of huffing and puffing over the wording of the bill. People were concerned that it gave the President too much power, and that it could be used, despite specifically stating otherwise, to justify the detention of United States citizens.
Earlier this week, the current Administration requested that the wording of the act be changed to SPECIFICALLY ALLOW the detention of United States citizens.
As of today, it has been announced that President Obama will NOT veto the bill.
Those are the facts as of this moment.
There is no hype, or alarmism involved. People have a very, very legitimate cause to be concerned."
The part that's opinion? That very LAST sentence, where I suggest that this isn't hype, but rather a very real and legitimate cause for concern.
"you aren't impressing anyone with a rant that is effectively restating your opinion every sentence with a periodic 'These are facts, K thnx bye', especially on a damned video game enthusiasts' website."
Mmm. I see.
My... opinion every sentence? Surely you don't mean that one little bit of opinion down at the bottom there?!
Or were you referring back to your 'fact-bomb' note, where I dropped a bunch of facts and then arrogantly sat back and responded to... YOUR COMMENT... treating you like... a jackass for singling out my comment as bullshit when it actually provided nothing but non-biased facts and a singular sentence of biased opinion?
Your comment, which singled out mine to suggest it was bullshit, after spewing nothing but pure opinion coupled with the full 600+ page copy of the bill which you know nobody on this 'damned video game enthusiast's website' is ever going to go and read... was somehow more valid than mine because I gave the information as it stood and then DIDN'T feel the need to qualify it with three blocks of personal opinion like you did?
You know what? This isn't even fun anymore.
Your logical pattern is so full of holes, Jerry the Mouse had a sword fight with a cat on top of it. Your justification is so weak, Arnold Schwarzenegger was referring to IT when he talked about 'girly men'. Your momma's so fat...
... no, not even juvenile humor can save this.
Good day, sir.
(PS: Everybody, read about and watch what's going on around you. I don't care what some idiot tells you to do, one way or the other, there's nothing more important to the American System than well-informed citizenry. The smarter you all are, the more power you have to change things. But if you don't even understand what you're losing... you'll wind up like those poor schmucks everyone keeps talking about in China. Rights are inefficient and unwieldy. Governments don't -give- them, citizens TAKE them. And when you stop caring enough to HOLD ONTO THEM... then governments will gladly take them back.
Today, tomorrow... it doesn't matter what the issue or argument is. Stay informed. It's the most honorable thing short of sacrificing your life that you can do for your country.)
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