Used Game Sales are a "Bigger Problem Than Piracy"

[crypt-creature]

You do know that used games give absolutely NO money back to the developers so they can't make more games and make them better using better technology. It's because of people like you why most developers just do what they're required to do and not create anything new. Probably why games like Madden, Guitar Hero and CoD are put out at least once a year. Buying used games is also why alot of publishers put a price other than "free" on DLC because you're not giving money to where it really needs to go. If you can't pay $50-60 a game, stop buying games used, because like I said before, you have more pressing matters that need attention, like managing your budget well and not like a idiot.

Oh please, companies also put out the three titles you listed because they know that those titles are popular and will sell even with minor updates. Such a thing has been proven time and time again that developers can get away with reusing the same formula until it's not popular and the next 'big thing' takes over (which they'll end up copying to some degree anyway).

Many of the games being made aren't worth the price tag being put on them, and I'm sorry but that isn't due to people buying used games.
It's companies shoveling out half completed ideas or running out of creativity or in general, marketing a bad idea and trying to compete with the other company releasing anticipated title 'X'.
Many people don't want to buy new games because they don't know if said game is really worth it, and in many cases it isn't.

Realize that it might not just be an issue of can people afford $50-60 games, but are the games worth the money?
If they aren't then people aren't going to pay for it. Used games or not doesn't matter in that case.

It doesn't matter how much technology or graphics are put into a game, if it sucks then it isn't worth the original price I spent for it (and most games these days do)

 

[Dreyfuss]

I never trade in games, but I buy a ton used. On the one hand, I feel a little bad that the devs don't see any money for it, but on the other, the producers and publishers were going to take most of it anyway, and they don't deserve a penny.

Besides, the real reason I don't trade in games is because I only get games that are actually GOOD. Maybe if these mega-bucks corporations stopped shoveling out shit by the fukkton and produced something GOOD, it wouldn't hit the bargain bin so fast.

But no, we get generic FPS after generic FPS, more than half of which are targeted to platforms that were never meant nor capable of properly supporting the genre, all because our twitchy, violent, hopped-up culture loves to murder but not if it means leaving their couch.

To anyone that actually wants to make a difference, pay the recommended price for this and send it all to developers. They deserve it. http://www.wolfire.com/humble

 

[Dogstile]

ugh

See, the problem I have with your mindset is that you think that somehow once i've brought a game, that I can't do what I want with it. I've paid the price it was sold to me at in full. If I want to trade it in, I will. Its MY game.

Heck, I even sell my games to my friends on occasion. I don't want a game and my friend does? Because GAME will only give me £5 and sell it for £20, i'll do my friend a favour and sell it at £15.

I can do that with any car I buy, any house I buy, and any furniture I buy. If i'm not allowed to do what I want with my property (as long as it doesn't physically harm another person or break any laws) I believe that I should be allowed to do what I like with it.

If you came up to me and told me I couldn't do that, i'd just punch you in the throat and tell you to mind your own business. Same thing i'd do to any company representative who thinks the same.

Not to be a dick or anything; but read the EULA for most games.

Basically, your being "licensed" the game. For the sake of argument, you don't actually own the game, you own the right to use it.

For all intents and purposes these gaming companies aren't going to stop letting us sell back used games, nor, can they. They can do the ultimate dick move and start DRM'ing EVERYTHING (or some sort of mutant authentication server)...

Eh. I don't see the problem with someone wanting to make money from their work. If anyone wants to learn something from this; do some research on how hard it actually is designing games. Were talking taking conference calls while your wife is giving birth... If that were me... I would expect at the very least a FAT paycheck...

EULA's never stand up in court. And i'm sure most people would agree that if you own a physical disc then they don't care if someone thinks they were sold a license or not, they were sold something, they brought it, its theirs.

That's my mindset. If a developer wants to tell me that something is theirs after they've advertised it and sold it to me like someone sells a 'product' then that's their problem.

Aside from that, I hear that the EULA would break that whole first sale thing that the US has going on.

And for the people who say that game is just trying to make as much money possible. Of course they are. They /are/ going under lately.

 

[lodo_bear]

Well I guess I'll do them a favor and pirate the games instead.

If I may state it plain, I think this reply wins the thread.

I'm torn about this one, personally. Buying a used anything doesn't give any money to the original seller, and I want to give them money because they're the ones who made the thing in the first place. However, if not for the used market, I wouldn't have most of the things I own today. My car, my toys and tools, my games, and my books (especially my books) all came to me from resellers, because they were charging prices I could afford.

How am I to resolve this dilemma?

 

[crypt-creature]

There's this point I have a hard time understanding... Why do people think that a publisher has anything to gain from having "used" players playing their games? They're simply losing money with those people, especialy on services they have maintain the infrastructure for online play such as on the Playstation!

Think of it this way, they release patches, updates and maintain the communities with their paid staff... Paying the full price of a game goes directly to funding such activities. If they didn't see any of your money, I don't have a problem with them cutting you out.

Not only that... Used games outlet require some preorder promotions from developers otherwise they won't carry the title in their stores. The whole point of getting that new costume or bonus that's basicly worthless, is simply to drag you to their store and blast you with ads, try to sell you additional crap (magazines, waranty... etc!)

I don't see how people can actually support those stores, just like when I buy music CDs, it's usualy because i want to support the artist and make sure they keep at it!

On another note, I'd love to see the age of people posting, because so far, I think it's only people who don't yet have a full time job or are in school, 50$ once in a while isn't much when you are settled in life, most pay that much per month just internet on their iPhones!

Why do people think that every single game out there is worth buying new, or that you can even find some games new (it does happen).

Used game stores don't 'require' preorder promotions. Many used stores, unless they are a chain or carry new titles, don't have to carry promotions of any sort.

People can support it because there are some people who need to buy games used. Besides, there are developers that get disband because they are under contract from another company. In that case, it doesn't matter if I buy the game new or used, as the money will default to the parent company and nothing goes to the developers. Sure, the parent company had a hand in hiring the developing team, but that doesn't mean I want to give them my money over the people who actually came up with the game and put man-power into building it from the ground up.
Plus many people can't always afford a brand spankin new game. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to play it or buy it used when it can be just as good.

So, now you have to be an adult with a job to be able to afford and have the right to play video-games?
Heck, even people with a full time job can't always buy a new game if they are paying for all their expenses on their own. Not everyone has a job that pays that well or live in an area that is reasonably affordable.
There are too many factors in why people buy used over new. And honestly, if a game is worth the money most people have no problem buying it new.
Problem is, most games aren't.

 

[DustyDrB]

So I buy a used game for 25-30 dollars, play it and sell it for 10-15. I paid 10-20 dollars for a game that way. I've never had a damaged disk doing this, why would I stop doing so if it is perfectly legal? Because other people are making less money from it? I'm not even going to act like I'm not selfish and acting in my own best interest. I'm by no means hurting for cash, but I'd still be a sucker to just flat-out pay $60 for a game. This is the way buying and selling games has been for a good while, they should be used to it.

 

[Always_Remain]

And this is why I only buy old used games and even then I try to find them new. I want my money going to the people who worked hard on the game I'm purchasing, not the peddlers. Plus I find buying New used games stupid and pointless.

 

[The Zango]

Well its legal and i personally made £600 pounds from it last year so bah! I think if games where more reasonably priced then i would buy more new games.

Holy shit. You made £600 from TRADING IN games? If you don't mind me asking, how many games did you buy last year?

Unless I misunderstood and you own a used game business...

I sold my games with Playtrade. I sold ALOT of games last year and i also sold my friends games on commision

 

[Booze Zombie]

Where as PC games are now dodging this all together with digital sales, which is why people who still take note of physical transactions are like "WTF, how is PC still going".

Having a console based around downloading games into blank disks would be a good way to dodge all of this "used games are dragging us down" stuff.
Plus, it'd keep vintage games in easy-access for all.

 

[imgunagitusucka]

The logic behind the argument given for this initiative is flawed. Developers are not losing money because of used game sales. If someone buys a game used they have immediatly stated that they are unwilling to purchase that product at full price. If they were unable to buy a second hand copy, there is absolutly no evidence to suggest they would then be forced to buy a new copy. Likely, the money would subsequently go towards something the consumer deems greater value for money, even if it means waiting for a game that has yet to be released or spending the money on something else entirely. Piracy can often be a similar situation. I know people who buy plenty of DVD's retail, because these are the films they want to own. These same people also download movies illegally, but those are films that they wouldn't buy anyway, so whether or not they download the movie, the owners of the copyright aren't really losing a sale, because it wasn't there in the first place. I'm sure IW and activision aren't losing sleep over secondhand sales of MW2...because when you make quality you make profit.

 

[ClunkiestTurtle]

Now i know this is slightly unfeasible but surely if this is such a end of days problem for them the game devs could get together and form their own chain of brick and mortar stores where the revenue gets split between them or something.

Also for the whole "You know we've always banged on about piracy and how wrong it is? well actually we're not really so bothered about that it was just easy to pick on. what we really want to do is get EVERY SINGLE PENNY from a sale of our game"

Now fair play to him i guess its a somewhat understandable position and i guess its good he's being honest about it.

Also i so called this

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.189455-lets-debate-piracy-and-the-hypocrisy-behind-it?page=6#5873619

 

[Fortunefaded]

I'd rather save the 3-10 quid from buying second hand. 5 quid means I can buy a packet of chicken breasts, usualy 3-4 which feeds me for 3-4 days! Food is far more important than having a shiny box gathering dust.

Anyone who tells me to feck off and not buy games. Go fuck yourself, sometimes I want to play a game.

I also agree with previous comments:

If I REALLY want a game such as MW2 or the latest FF, I will buy it (when i have the money -g-) and I won't settle for a second hand copy as I really want it. However, a game which I've heard good things about and what not but don't desire it as much I'm more influenced to purchase it 2nd hand with a tenner knocked off the price.

I've impulse purchased 90% of my ps3 games based on them being 2nd hand and at a reduced price. If there was no second hand games then I'd own two ps3 games in 3 years.

It would also mean the gaming shops would have less income and potentially may have closed down thus limiting a new releases exposure.

 

[Funkysandwich]

They could just make games cheaper. I know they'd ***** about not earning as much per title, but if they dropped the price of new games by $20 in Australia, at lot more people would buy new games more often.

 

[tehroc]

I also have to chime in and say this thread is utterly fucking hilarious. Staunch anti-piracy industry cheerleaders shitting all over this guy because hes telling the truth.

The aftermarket, no matter how you feel about it, is taking money out of the developer's pockets for the sake of supporting parasitic retail chains. The retail chains should be required to forward a portion of all used sales to the publisher (the way rental chains do, ever since NINTENDO of AMERICA sued the loving shit out of them in the '80s, in hopes of shutting them down completely), but they don't.

And as far as people bitching about the cost of buying new, the "used" discount is rarely 10%, and as far as trading in goes, they're fucking robbing you.

Those developers already get paid, it's called a salary or hourly wage. Publishers make all the bank. You buying new does not help the developers, it only benefits the publisher. It's really not that much different then the music industry.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I fucking new it. All that DRM to combat "piracy" that also just happens to make it harder/impossible to sell them second hand. Cunts.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Yet another person that doesn't understand the First sale doctrine in the US...

Really, that reads more as rhetorical rather than something that is based in any facts.

Especially after the fact that both libraries as well as the used game market, be it SNES titles, NES titles, or anything else, has been around as long as there have been games out.

You're opposed to piracy (something proven irrelevant to developers) because its illegal, but supporting the after market (something quantifiablely harmful to developers) because its legal.

Hypocrisy in its purest, most natural form.

It doesn't matter if its legal, retail chains buying and selling used games actively subverts the commercial viability of video games.

Oh please, it is in no way hypocritical. Piracy completely circumvents any kind of payment whatsoever, whereas buying something secondhand requires that someone has first paid full price for the original game. There is absolutely no ground for comparison.

The only way I can see any merit in the industry's argument is where new games are almost immediately available at used prices only a couple of weeks after launch. However, this is more to do with there being a flaw in the viability of Triple A titles than a conspiracy by the retailers to subvert the industry. What opponents of the secondhand market like to conveniently ignore is that in order for there to BE a secondhand market, enough people have to be bored of their games to return them. In many cases, publishers are often are paying excessive amounts of money to develop games that have little value beyond a single playthrough, and they expect to recoup those costs through steep retail prices. This means two things. Firstly, if the consumer feels unsatisfied with what they got for the price, they are naturally going to be inclined to try and recoup some of that by trading the game in. Secondly, the consumer whose expectations have been built towards believing a game to have little replay value will be unlikely to pay full price when a marked down copy is available.

Every form of art has a breaking point. When audiences could no longer afford the tickets to extravagant 18th century plays set on massive stages with elaborate machinery and sets, what followed was a gradual transition towards naturalism with smaller stages and fixed sets. Game publishers need to realise that if it costs too much to produce a game which gets traded in all too quickly, then such a business model is no longer effective, and no amount of DLC will keep it afloat. What they should be doing is scaling down graphical technology (c.f. Blizzard) to allow more resources to be allocated to gameplay content. Of course, what they are more likely to do is what they are doing at present: ie, blaming the secondhand market whilst firing off developers, forcing those that remain to produce games with even less content.

 

[the_tramp]

Oliver claimed that games can be traded as many as four times in their lifespan, effectively reducing developer and publisher royalties for some titles to a quarter of what they should be.

Perhaps this guy needs to focus more on his maths skills, if a game is traded in 4 times then it is enjoyed by 5 people and therefore the developer/publisher royalties are reduced to a 1/5th. If he's made such an easy mistake how can any of his other figures hold any bargaining merit?

 

[Rect Pola]

The used market is such a scam. It sounds good on paper. Lesser games would resell for cheaper, but games people actually want cost as just as much as new through retailers and an arm and a leg through ebay. Last time I checked for Shantae I saw a complete with box for $599.

On another point. I personally like sense of just owning a library of games. Sure some games stink up the place, but I don't need the $3 I'd get for them that badly.

 

[Antari]

Yes lets blame everyone but the game designers. If they would stop producing overpriced half finished crap. We might be a little less willing to trade that crap in.

Your not innocent, and you certainly aren't perfect, so quit blaming everyone but yourself. Blitz Games huh?, I shall have to remember to avoid them.