"Vaccines don't save lives"

[f1r2a3n4k5]

There is a lot more changing in the world then just vaccines you know.

Yes, people started eating GMO in the 1990s too, but there's another sacred cow scientists can't or won't do serious research on the safety of it. I know you probably had something different in mind, but for me the bottom line is kids today get more vaccines than ever, eating food that hasn't even been in use for a generation yet- and cancer is sky rocketing and no one wants to even do the research for fear people won't take vaccines and herd immunity will be lost, for fear of having to reinvest billions into having to come up with something else, just for fear, period.

That's because a lot of these fears are misplaced. GMO's are another one. GMO's have the potential to provide the WORLD with cheap, nutritious food.

From the science perspective, it's our fault. We haven't really ever stopped to explain the benefits of some of this to the non-science crowd. So they're picking up these crazy tabloid ideas that are entirely unfounded. We SHOULD do this research so it doesn't make it seem like we're *afraid* that we'll find something we don't like. The problem is, there's no funding to do research that's already BEEN DONE. And that's where we are with vaccines. There's no evidence to suggest them DO cause cancer/autism. And it's impossible to prove that they DON'T cause illness. So.... what's the point?

The reason cancer is sky-high is because, well, ordinarily, we'd be dead by now. 2/3rds of the people that lived to 60 years of age in ALL of human history are currently alive. Think about that. Prior to now, most people would be DEAD long before cancer had a chance to get to them. A great percentage of us would have died in infancy without modern medicine.

Many of these things are facts of science. People weren't "supposed" to live as long as we do. So we acquire mutations in our DNA. A little bit, each day. But when we are living thousands of days more than usual. They add up.

 

[Killclaw Kilrathi]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

Actually we have a pretty good idea as to why there are more allergies today, but the problem is it isn't one single thing you can point the finger at. The Hygeine Hypothesis is one explaination.

http://fightthecauseofallergy.org/page/hygiene-hypothesis

Essentially, our medical and sanitation practices have got so advanced that we're not getting the early exposure to certain microbes that build up our immune systems. It also explains why allergies are more common among first world nations, it's not the only explaination but it's well supported.

Vaccines actually help to build up our immune systems, and are likely not to blame.

But if you want a catch-all, layman reason for things like allergies and cancers and mental disorders, the easiest one is that it's basically a by-product of modern living. We've essentially eliminated natural selection and replaced it with our own social parameters that aren't health-based, which is throwing our whole species a biological curve-ball. Our pollution has changed in the last thirty years or so, we use new synthetic products that may not be more polluting but put off much worse waste that can give us all kinds of nasty conditions. We can't even test this sort of thing effectively without long-term studies, which are impossible to predict with any real accuracy until they've run their decades-long course.

This is all very simplified of course, but to summarize it's impossible to just label one thing as the cause of cancer or autism or what have you, it's less of a smoking gun and more a set of variables upon variables that give us a big tangled web of cause and effect.

 

[somonels]

Well, it's true. Vaccines don't "save lives," they "prevent illnesses, some of which may cause life-long ailments sometimes deaths."

But yes, in the long term all medical treatments weaken the innate immune system. The price of saving lives now is an ever-weaker generation that comes after who also have to deal with the accumulated pollution.

yaddayada

 

[xDarc]

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Life expectancy rose 1.5% between 1990 and 2000, rates of cancer rose 20% over the same period, so that's bunk.

 

[rasputin0009]

Y'know OP, it's funny that you also happen to talk of arguing against evolution because the same people who argue that vaccines don't save lives are going to be the same people that prove evolution to be correct (or at least natural selection)

I'm not sure if you're making a case against vaccines or evolution but I'm pretty certain you're opposing one of those two... do tell me if I'm wrong though.

In simples, I was saying that those who argue that "vaccines are dangerous" will prove the theory of evolution to be correct when they die as as result of this irrational belief, therefore proving the theory of evolution.

It's such a downer when you have to explain a joke
I thought it was funny anyways.

OT: America: Where science is at the top of its game and blindly ignored at the same time. Vaccines in general definitely keep people from dying and saying otherwise is silly.

But there is an actual scientific debate on our reliance of vaccines. Our vaccine reliance is what causes "superbugs" which are super strong, super lethal mutations of all our favorite pathogens. Could we trigger a superbug that our vaccines can't keep up with and we have the latest Black Death scenario?

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

But there is an actual scientific debate on our reliance of vaccines. Our vaccine reliance is what causes "superbugs" which are super strong, super lethal mutations of all our favorite pathogens. Could we trigger a superbug that our vaccines can't keep up with and we have the latest Black Death scenario?

I don't know if there is this debate. I think this debate is actually about antibiotics, not vaccines.

Because, worst case scenario, a pathogen will evolve in a way that it is not targeted by the immune response cause by the vaccine. So then you're at the same place you were at before you had a vaccine at all. And you develop a new one. This is what happens with the flu. The flu can go through variations, so vaccine companies make seasonal adjustments.

And there are some diseases we've basically eliminated with vaccines, like smallpox. We don't even get vaccinated for it anymore because it has no transmission vectors in first-world countries.

 

[Axolotl]

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Life expectancy rose 1.5% between 1990 and 2000, rates of cancer rose 20% over the same period, so that's bunk.

Just so we're all on the same page, where are you getting those numbers fro?

 

[RicoADF]

I saw someone make this comment earlier and it reminded me that apparently there's a number of "anti-vaccine" people out there, people who think it's all nonsense and even causes a number of very serious illnesses.
If I remember right, Michelle Bachmann said something similar and since then a lot of people seemed to really rally against it - claiming everything from mental illness, mind control or even death as being the end result of getting these simple injections.

If it were people arguing against evolution or something then I wouldn't really care. I mean, you're ignoring a massive pile of evidence but nobody is getting hurt if you think everything just popped into existence. But with vaccines, peoples lives are actually at stake. I can't imagine how many children might have died because of these nut-jobs.

I just don't understand what goes through peoples head sometimes.

While I agree that vaccines are good and for the most part are worth it, some people do have some valid complaints. You've got to remember that some people have bad reactions to vaccines like any medication and they have on occasion caused massive problems and even some deaths. It's accidental and not something you can predict, but it does happen. So I can understand some believing letting nature take it's course as a safer route than playing Russian roulette with the vaccines. That said I have been vaccinated myself and would vaccinate my kids (if I ever have any), but the concerns are valid to some degree.

 

[Andy Farren]

Is it the 18th century already?

 

[JazzJack2]

Also just so you know cancer rates are going because people are living longer (age is the biggest risk factor for cancer)

Life expectancy rose 1.5% between 1990 and 2000, rates of cancer rose 20% over the same period, so that's bunk.

Did it even enter your brain that the link may not linear?

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I don't hold much love for conspiracy theories or messing with people's heads beyond shits 'n giggles or making the world a better place.

But here's the thing: When those oh so popular flu vaccines made our grandma's life shit, we blamed it on her biblically high age, shit's bound to break when you've been using the same heart/knees/cartilage/lungs/eyes for a century.

Then some of the kids started getting... well, let's refer to them as complications. Then people that couldn't be bothered to be worried about it or question their doctors started having issues.

It's too early to be very scientific about it, but all I can say is this: I've stayed away from these vaccinations, yet travel to known hotspots, have never had any complications and the good old slaughtering of a chicken that is then turned into chicken broth wholesale has never failed me so far. That, and some known-good pills and powders.

As far as I know, we're still not completely clear on the subject of trivalent influenza vaccine and schizophrenia, whereas symptoms have been witnessed both following an infection proper or after mommy dearest getting the shots without any exposition to the actual, live threat out in the wild... so, as long as we don't know, we speculate, assume and collect data. I personally don't feel like risking life and brain for this, so my choice is clear.

I do get shots for all the specific threats... I don't see much purpose of a shot that might or might not fuck me up. I just don't fancy that very much, so call me skeptic. From where I am standing, perceiving and thinking, this is an ongoing, large/global scale human experiment with the declared goal of coming up with a general flu vaccine, that, when and if successful, might or might not be pursued further for other purposes. So, it's not a religious thing for me to say no. It's just that I don't go breaking my bones if I can help it, so I also try to stay away from, say, HIV and I just plain don't think getting influenza shots is a very smart idea. Shit happens, but I usually don't go around asking for it and inviting it over for a cup of tea.

 

[CriticalMiss]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

The thing with cancer rates going up is the fact that:
1) It is easier to diagnose cancer with new technology (good thing)
2) People are being diagnosed at earlier stages, when they can be more easily treated (good thing)
3) Other diseases are now treatable so the average lifespan goes up, giving people more chance to get cancer.

And with the 'learning disabilities' (autism etc) going up there is a similar story. Lots of kids are being diagnosed when they have borderline autism or slight autistic tendencies which aren't really that severe. The definition of autism has changed and so the numbers get boosted as more conditions are brought under the umbrella of autism. It's like if you decided that all motorised vehicles should be called cars, then talk about a sudden explosion in the number of cars in the world.

 

[Killclaw Kilrathi]

There is a lot more changing in the world then just vaccines you know.

Yes, people started eating GMO in the 1990s too, but there's another sacred cow scientists can't or won't do serious research on the safety of it. I know you probably had something different in mind, but for me the bottom line is kids today get more vaccines than ever, eating food that hasn't even been in use for a generation yet- and cancer is sky rocketing and no one wants to even do the research for fear people won't take vaccines and herd immunity will be lost, for fear of having to reinvest billions into having to come up with something else, just for fear, period.

You need to do your research, it's "organic" foods that will kill you. Depending on where you live, the label "organic" often refers to a largely deregulated industry whose only requirement is that they only use "natural" chemicals. This includes a huge variety of toxic pesticides that its farmers readily use on their crops and sell to you on the pretense that their stock is somehow healthier.

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/03/eating-organic-may-be-harmful-the-truth-behind-organic-produce-doug-smith/

Just remember that if a farmer actually went all natural with their crop, it would be largely eaten by pests and would result in huge financial losses. If you want genuinely clean produce you'll have to grow it yourself.

 

[xDarc]

Did it even enter your brain that the link may not linear?

Did it ever enter your brain that your basically making the same argument, that correlation equals causation, that people live to be older now, so therefore we see more cancer- without any kind of clue as to what kinds of cancer, in what age groups, etc.

And if you're not going to let me use that to call into the question the safety of something, then you have absolutely no leg to stand on to shut the door, case closed by the same tactic.

 

[Zipa]

Penn and Teller have this one covered, they cover the subject pretty damn well.

 

[JazzJack2]

Did it even enter your brain that the link may not linear?

Did it ever enter your brain that your basically making the same argument, that correlation equals causation, that people live to be older now, so therefore we see more cancer- without any kind of clue as to what kinds of cancer, in what age groups, etc.

And if you're not going to let me use that to call into the question the safety of something, then you have absolutely no leg to stand on to use the same tactic to shut the door, case closed by the same tactic.

Except we have causation, the effects of age on cancer vulnerability are very well documented.

 

[xDarc]

Except we have causation, the effects of age on cancer vulnerability are very well documented.

So correlation does not equal causation unless it suits you because you say so. Cancer is up? Must just be old people. *shrugs*. Alright then.

I was going to post the statistics showing cancer rates rising by age group, but it is a waste of time. The bottom line is they could prove that vaccines cause cancer or autism tomorrow, just as they can admit the NSA is spying on everyone all the time, and no one would care anyway. The consensus would be that it's worth it if people get cancer because hey, at least measles isn't killing everyone.

 

[Adam Locking]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

My dad is over 50 and has a gluten intolerance, so that theory may be a little bit wonky. Apparently they didn't have a proper way of diagnosing it till about 15-20 years ago or something, people always assumed it was something else 'cause it can be a tricky bugger to pin down.

I personally blame "excess hygiene" for a lot of the new illnesses cropping up now-a-days. If a kid hasn't came in contact with seriously germy surfaces before, because he's not allowed to play outside as often as previous generations, and everything around the house is sterilized and bleached, of course they're going to have issues if they actually come in contact with something crawling with disease!