"Vaccines don't save lives"

[Eddie the head]

Also quit quote mining.

How about you read the thread and quit jumping on my back with everyone else?

I have. You just lack any forum of logic. For example.

He did because what you bolded is irrelevant. Cancer rates are up, across the board, amongst all age groups. To say that cancer is up because people are living longer is absolutely implying correlation/causation. The group think here is absolutely ridiculous.

Argument form fallacy, even if he was using a fallacy it doesn't make what you said right. Also it's a Strawman, because his point is there is research to imply a link. Not that there is correlation so there is a link.

The part I've bolded there is irrelevant to what your responding to actually.
If that's your argument, then argue that and provide your proof.

To get back on the topic that we (that is, you, myself and Eddie) were discussing: the fact remains that JazzJack did not make a correlation = causation fallacy because he claims that there is evidence beyond the correlation which shows that there is causation.

Thank you.

 

[Tono Makt]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

People gettin' old, dude, and old dudes (and dudettes) are more likely to have cancer. Also, people (well, women mostly - men don't seem to have the same sorts of issues when it comes to fathering kids later in life) are waiting until they're old to have kids - mid to late 30's, kids of these folks are tending to have more health issues than kids of younger parents. Then you factor in all of the chemicals we've got around us every day of our lives (for most urban dwellers, anyway), the dramatic change in lifestyle (we're essentially becoming a sedentary species thanks to the Industrial Revolution, going from Farmer/Tradesman to Cubicle Dweller over the past 200 years and we're doing this to our kids from an extremely early age, plopping them down in front of the TV to let Barney entertain them for a few hours, giving them video games to play and above all else, keeping them inside and away from "danger") and the vastly higher caloric intake thanks to having way more food than we used to (and the terrible things we put in the food to make it tasty and well preserved).

There's a heck of a lot going on here. Yeah, something is incredibly wrong, but vaccines are waaaaay down on the list of things going wrong.

 

[Stryc9]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

If you're gonna make out that peanut allergies and gluten intolerance are the fault of vaccines then I get to say that it's because of this craze that started in the 90's where parents were bringing their kids home to the closest thing the average person can get to a sterile clean room. People are deathly afraid to bring their kids into any sort of environment that might possibly contain even one germ and as a result of this their immune systems aren't getting the practice they need and we're getting sicker kids with some interesting conditions.

OT:
I find this whole anti-vaccination thing to be absolutely stupid and a danger to society. There are diseases coming back that have rarely been seen in decades because parents aren't getting their kids vaccinated against them and then getting waivers allowing them to go to school without their shots. They all claim either that the shots will with 100% certainty give their kids autism or in the case of some of the crazier ones the vaccines are full of mind control chemicals so that the government can indoctrinate the kids better in the liberal school system all hail Obama and the New World Order. Meanwhile before you know it we're gonna end up with mutations of diseases like measles that are resistant to the current vaccinations and end up with an epidemic on our hands. I'm sure it'll be great when Super Polio comes out because some bunch of dipshits didn't get their kids vaccinated against it and spread it to all their friends that did get their shots and they develop the mutated form of it.

 

[Kurt Cristal]

Yeah, I tend to avoid the flu-shot because I feel it'll weaken your immune system [citation needed], but yeah, some vaccines are a must.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Sure, and guns don't kill people!

People kill people.

Yeah but the gun helps, doens't it? People don't just go "BANG, you're dead!"

 

[lacktheknack]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

Well, you can blame it on vaccines... or you could blame it on dozens of other factors.

Obesity, for instance. There is a big link between obesity and cancer.

In fact, I'd say that's MUCH more likely of a culprit than vaccines.

There's also the simple fact that people are living longer, Cancer never used to be a significant killer and has become more and more prevalent due to the simple fact that there are less things killing us these days, there are literally 10's of illnesses that even 75 years ago were out and out lethal that today can be remedied in simple or even routine operations or antibiotics.

It's not Cancer I'm worried about, Stroke and Heart disease. Compare the mortality rate of under 75's with Cancer and if you are like me you will be surprised how little publicity the dangers they pose get compared to Cancer. I was really shocked, even overall circulatory issues are the leading cause of death in the UK.

This doesn't shock me. Heart and stroke diseases are even MORE firmly linked to obesity.

Basically, if we were less obese, we'd be significantly healthier across the board.

 

[Raggedstar]

It's not unusual for me to be reactive to vaccines, but even after collapsing not too long afterward on other vaccines, doctors respond with a resounding "meh". The ones I had the biggest reactions with were Hepatitis B and the one I mentioned first was MMR (measels, mumps, rubella), both are common vaccines to give children. Considering the reactions I get and the fact that no one seems to be giving a damn, you better fucking believe I'm upset.

Without trying to sound too un-empathetic, but whats even an hour of discomfort compared to getting Hepatitis B? That's probably where the lack of empathy of from the doctors is coming from.

Blacking out is a potentially harmful side effect, no matter the cause. If I collapsed at the wrong time, that could lead to injury (most importantly the head). The hours following I tend to be weak and feel so sick I can't do anything. Our Hep B shots were done at school btw and I got in trouble for not doing my work.

The reaction for the MMR vaccine last year lasted for about 3 or 4 days of constant headaches, weakness, shortness of breath (while not dangerously short), and generally not being able to function properly. Considering my expectations at college, that's about 8 hours (not counting transit) of hell and I nearly collapsed several times. I was in a program where missing one class = failure, so staying home wasn't an option.

Perhaps the point to hit home is that these are neurological signs. Neurological signs should be considered as serious and something to look into (especially since repeated occurrence and waiting around can make things worse). Crazy shit happens up there if it's not tended to, which is why any neurological symptom such as tremors, unconsciousness, etc is normally treated as a big deal. And considering I haven't had a single bit of sympathy (don't worry, not directed at you) in the years regarding my reactions, it makes me wonder what will happen if it DOES create something harmful or permanent.

Didn't mean to start myself a pity party. Just wanted to show my frustration with apathy and the "vaccines can do no wrong" attitude a lot of people, professionals worst of all, have. This is especially frustrating considering my education and career, where the teachers and products outright say the potential harm vaccines can do.

 

[iseko]

The vaccines kids get today are not the ones I got in 1982-86. It's obvious that vaccines prevent disease, but it's also obvious that kids today are increasingly defective- not just with autism, but you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either. Then you have have cancer being up 20% from 1990-2000 and expected to be up another 50% by 2020.

So maybe... something is very wrong.

An explanation (not necessarily the correct one) for
a) allergies etc: theyre investigating the link between increased hygiene <-> auto-immune disease and allergies. Apparently your kid is stronger if he plays in the mud from time to time.

b) increase in cancer is pretty normal I think. People get older because of better medicine. Not even a 100 years ago, getting the flu was potentially lethal. Now its usually no biggie (except for some cases with extra complications (aids for example )). But nowadays people get older and thus run an increased risk of getting cancer. Not that increased polution and shit is not adding to the increase.

I'll try and edit this with some (legitimate) sources later on. Don't have the time to look it up right now. And PS: this is what I remember from reading/class. My memory might be wrong. Just a thought...

 

[mitchell271]

Spoiler: To which I show them this:

Beware, it's a big image. You can also see it [a href="http://www.vaccines.com/_img/body/1-0/1-1_infographic_02.gif"]here[/a].

 

[afroebob]

People don't like considering viewpoints other than their own. With the internet, they can find a community of people who are equally ill-informed or delusional, rather than learning to consider opposing viewpoints. Thus nothing changes.

I... it... I don't even... This. This needs to be on billboards all around the nation.

OP: I personally think that once a drug has been proven to not be harmful to children that could potentially save their lives parents should have to make them get vaccinated. I don't give a fuck about what some idiot parents have to say about it, nobody has the right to let a child die because their parents are fucking stupid. Period.

 

[Something Amyss]

If I remember right, Michelle Bachmann said something similar and since then a lot of people seemed to really rally against it - claiming everything from mental illness, mind control or even death as being the end result of getting these simple injections.

It predates Michelle Batshit by a lot. Jenny Mcarthy is one of the people who really popularised it, claiming not only a link between vaccines and autism, but also that she cured her kid's autism. Sadly, this miracle cure has not been revealed to the scientific community.

Not only dos it lack scientific evidence, but also statistical as well.

If it were people arguing against evolution or something then I wouldn't really care. I mean, you're ignoring a massive pile of evidence but nobody is getting hurt if you think everything just popped into existence.

Maybe not directly, but let me ask you this: what if the actual "cure" for autism lies within the mind of someone who will never realise it because their parents taught them science is a bunch of liberal PC bullshit?

Yes, it's unlikely that any such cure will come from within one mind, but the point remains. Closing off people's minds is damaging.

Besides, permissiveness towards ignorance is permissiveness towards ignorance. Where do you think these ideas come from in the first place?

That being said, the pharmaceutical industry have been known not to be transparent with their information.

Which is how most conspiracy theories start: some legit worry, no matter how small, or some legit question. I mean, I don't exactly trust pharmaceutical companies, either. They're in tight with the FDA in this country and we've seen a bunch of bad drugs pass under questionable circumstances. They're profit-driven and monopolistic and probably view us as acceptable losses.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, that doesn't mean vaccines are bad. People latched on to the fear and didn't bother with anything like "reason" when approaching it (a shame we didn't impress upon them things like critical thinking or the scientific method). A lot of misconceptions spread through ignorance and fear. They also spin out because of it.

 

[McMullen]

you never used to hear shit about peanut allergies or gluten intolerance either.

Yes, actually, we did. My dad's roommate in college (this would have been around 1979) had a severe lifelong peanut allergy, to the point that the smell of peanut butter could put him in need of a trip to the clinic.

Not hearing of something until recently doesn't mean it's new. It often just means that it has either not been recognized as an illness until recently, or that you simply hadn't been exposed to that information until recently.

What you're doing is how misinformation spreads. Please try not to do that in the future.

 

[Something Amyss]

And the most notable difference between 1983 to 2013 you can think of is "vaccines".

I can't name a single other change in the last 30 years, can you?

I do find it interesting how we point to an "increase" in some things when all we're doing is better diagnosing them. Autism being thrown around is one, but also gluten intolerance sort of fits. There may be an actual rise, but there's a heavy increase in diagnosis of both Celiac disease and idiopathic gluten sensitivity due to increased screening. It's like saying there are more stars in the sky compared to a thousand years ago simply because we've got better technology for observing them.

Not that I know how many stars there are in the sky, just that the premise of "more detection=more stars exist" would be faulty.

I... it... I don't even... This. This needs to be on billboards all around the nation.

Unfortunately, 99% of people would believe it applied to other people. The ones who would take note would almost certainly be the ones who least NEEDED to do so.

I, of course, am completely different. >.>

 

[Daystar Clarion]

2013 and some people think vaccines don't work?

Small Pox would like to say hello.

Fucking blows my mind

 

[VoidWanderer]

I think a good counter-point to the 'Vaccines don't save lives', would be 'And neither do seat belts.'

While they try and counter your point use their own arguements against them.

 

[Something Amyss]

Not hearing of something until recently doesn't mean it's new. It often just means that it has either not been recognized as an illness until recently, or that you simply hadn't been exposed to that information until recently.

Growing up, one of my friends had epilepsy. Everyone in my elementary school classes ended up educated on it so we'd know the signs and be able to get help for him/not panic should he end up having a fit.

Imagine my surprise, then, that when we entered middle and high school almost nobody knew what it was.

Roundabout way of agreeing with the notion. Things are often new to us simply beause they're new to us.

Hell, I didn't know how many people in my family suffered migraines (which comes to mind primarily because they put me on a seizure med to deal with it for several years) until after I started getting them. My family didn't just start getting them because I did, though. And I'm constantly surrounded by people who use "migraine" to mean "headache," so....

 

[Something Amyss]

I think a good counter-point to the 'Vaccines don't save lives', would be 'And neither do seat belts.'

While they try and counter your point use their own arguements against them.

Unless they agree, in which case it's check and mate.

>.>