Valve Pulls Controversial Game Hatred from Greenlight - Update

[Entitled]

Also notice the reason they banned it? They gave no reasonable answer. No information on what rule this game violates. They have postal and manhunt, but suddenly this game is too much? If they are gonna ban it. They need a reason when they have violent games up already.

They have chosen to not sell it from their own website. If this could lead to a slippery slope of Nintendo banning it's Mario and Zelda games, then the opposite solution, of demanding that they "need a reason" could just as easily lead to an anti-free-speech system, where privately held websites are obliged to either distribute a certain type of content, or forced to "give reasons" whether they want to or not.

You are acting scared about potential censorship, while cheerfully demanding to control other people's distribution of information.

 

[ShakerSilver]

There is your consistency. It would be hypocritical to expect Valve to keep up a certain game facing backlash, where in other situations they have already demonstrated their willingness to listen to a large enough community.

If the game were facing enough backlash that much of the market was calling for its removal, it wouldn't have seen so much approval on its Steam Greenlight page. The backlash isn't nearly as a game like 2066, and not completely comparable: 2066 was removed for universal outrage over being completely broken and a huge scam with a developer that lashes out at people complaining; Hatred was removed because of a kneejerk reaction from a subset of the market to a murder-spree sim when other such games already exist and the rumors of the developer being an alleged "neo-nazi". The backlash of Hatred is perceived as more severe because a lot more voices in media are being broadcasting disapproval for it, when scams on Greenlight aren't really given much attention at all.

 

[Entitled]

If the game were facing enough backlash that much of the market was calling for its removal, it wouldn't have seen so much approval on its Steam Greenlight page. The backlash isn't nearly as a game like 2066, and not completely comparable: 2066 was removed for universal outrage over being completely broken and a huge scam with a developer that lashes out at people complaining; Hatred was removed because of a kneejerk reaction from a subset of the market to a murder-spree sim when other such games already exist and the rumors of the developer being an alleged "neo-nazi". The backlash of Hatred is perceived as more severe because a lot more voices in media are being broadcasting disapproval for it, when scams on Greenlight aren't really given much attention at all.

How are these statements the demonstration of them not being comparable? You are practically using synonyms to describe their situation: "2066 was removed for universal outrage", but for Hatred, "a lot more voices in media are being broadcasting disapproval for it".

Likewise, with Hatred, "other such games already exist", meanwhile games similar to 2066 "aren't really given much attention at all".

It seems to me like both games were widely criticized, even though they are examples of a problem that Valve otherwise tolerates by default, but in this case, removed them.

 

[ryukage_sama]

Good news. "Hatred" makes us look bad by association and appears neither fun nor fulfilling to play. Steam needs to be more judicious in what they sell, so hopefully they'll be making similarly mindful determinations in the future.

So like the movie production code. We need to start censoring ourselves.

edit: an abridged lesson on Hayes code. It was a group formed to keep movies decent back in the day. Prompted because of all the sexual innuendos in the movies and off screen incidents. Like Some like it hot. It banned anything that was controversial of the time.

Banning a game because you dont like it or offended is a slippery slope. Where do we stop. Mario could be banned because it make Italians uncomfortable. Zelda could be banned because pot breaking might promote destruction of property.

Great straw man argument about banning a game. Let us know when a game is actually banned.

The developers can totally sell their game via their own website if they so choose. Valve has zero obligation to provide them an avenue for sales. We can't compel a company to take part in business they don't want, especially when they don't need the income and the vast majority of their customers won't care or will support their decision.

 

[Albino Boo]

TotalBiscuit's video on this is just perfect

Steam sells Postal 1 - which is a straight up murder spree simulator.

Postal 2 - the "pee on the dead charred bodies of women" simulator?

Postal 3? Do I even need to say anything here?

They sell GTA games. I'm just gonna say "Gauranga"

In short: They sell all kinds of games that allow you to kill innocent bystanders.

Bloody hell: They sell the Carmagedon games. You get extra points from running over bystanders with your spike-grilled car. You're meant to run people over in this game.

Skyrim - the assassins guild and their questions and assassination missions. Killing for fun and profit!


Or if its because Hatred is just 'politically incorrect' then why are games like Democracy 3 on steam? There you can set up the most horrible police state and suppres every human right you can imagine.

Binding of Isaac? Naked boy running around!? Child pornography!


There are so many potentially offensive games on Steam - this makes absolutely no sense. Valve done goofed - they done goofed hard.

If its a quality issue, then all the games that Jim Sterling makes Squirty Plays of should be taken down immediately.. but they're not.


So Valve - if nothing else - be consistent. If you dont want a certain kind of games or a certain kind of game content on Steam, then be bloody hell honest about it.

Can you tell me which one of them was available in the steam store on the after day after 2 people were killed in a cafe in Sydney by someone full of hate and then 122 school children were murdered in Pakistan. When circumstances change, policy changes.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

How are these statements the demonstration of them not being comparable? "2066 was removed for universal outrage", but for Hatred, "a lot more voices in media are being broadcasting disapproval for it".

The numbers don't seem to show a universal outrage or any kind of mixed reception at all in Greenlight.

Spoiler

[/spoiler]

Quite the contrary. The numbers clearly show a universally positive reaction to the Greenlight. People wanted the game. Even [i]after[/i] those articles went up letting the world know that Hatred was up on Greenlight. Even with that exposure, the game still had an overwhelmingly positive stint on Greenlight in the brief time it was up there. This is obviously very different from what 2066 went through.

 

[ShakerSilver]

Can you tell me which one of them was available in the steam store on the after day after 2 people were killed in a cafe in Sydney by someone full of hate and then 122 school children were murdered in Pakistan.

So you admit it has nothing to do with the game itself but because Valve is submitting to moral panic? Better not release any game with killing in it at all, as people are killed everywhere all the time.

When circumstances change, policy changes.

If policies have been changed then most of those game he listed would have been taken down from Steam as well.

 

[Armadox]

Humm, removing a game based on the content seems.. an odd choice. There shouldn't be anything you can't make a movie, book or game from, as long as you're tasteful about it or baring that learn something from it. Art can be designed simply to offend, but that in itself doesn't invalidate the art. I'd like to offer "Paint Your Wagon" as an example, or if you must "Requiem for a Dream".

I don't see that I'd buy Hatred, but that being said I don't think that it should have been banned outright; just kept off the front page. If you go looking for it, you'll find it.

That being said, I would like Valve to make more of an effort in removing more games that deserve it through the fact that it's broken without the developer moving to fix it. Grass Simulator is still on stream even thought it is barebones and non-functional.

 

[Ishigami]

Can you tell me which one of them was available in the steam store on the after day after 2 people were killed in a cafe in Sydney by someone full of hate and then 122 school children were murdered in Pakistan. When circumstances change, policy changes.

It is not available yet. It was a green light campaign to get it on steam once released.
And I bet I can in fact dig up some horrible shit that happened around the release of these games merely because the world is one fuck up place where you can easily dig up horrible shit all the time if you just start looking.
Afghanistan and Iraq should cover me for the last 10 years alone when it comes to terrorist attacks?

Yes policies change? why are they still on the store though? ? It should be fairly easy to remove games from the store while leaving already purchased license intact and allow for codes obtained otherwise (retailers) to be activated.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Steam sells Postal 1 - which is a straight up murder spree simulator.

Postal 2 - the "pee on the dead charred bodies of women" simulator?

Postal 3? Do I even need to say anything here?

They sell GTA games. I'm just gonna say "Gauranga"

In short: They sell all kinds of games that allow you to kill innocent bystanders.

Bloody hell: They sell the Carmagedon games. You get extra points from running over bystanders with your spike-grilled car. You're meant to run people over in this game.

Skyrim - the assassins guild and their questions and assassination missions. Killing for fun and profit!

Or if its because Hatred is just 'politically incorrect' then why are games like Democracy 3 on steam? There you can set up the most horrible police state and suppres every human right you can imagine.

Binding of Isaac? Naked boy running around!? Child pornography!

There are so many potentially offensive games on Steam - this makes absolutely no sense. Valve done goofed - they done goofed hard.

If its a quality issue, then all the games that Jim Sterling makes Squirty Plays of should be taken down immediately.. but they're not.

Actually, they did remove Earth: Year 2066 on a quality issue.

If anything, Valve has shown perfect consistency in taking down games either for violence or for low quality, only when it created an outrage, but not on command of a random youtube reviewer's word, or on the chance of being "potentially offensive".

That list you posted, is comparable to the list of Squirty Plays games, and Hatred is comparable to Earth: Year 2066.

There is your consistency. It would be hypocritical to expect Valve to keep up a certain game facing backlash, where in other situations they have already demonstrated their willingness to listen to a large enough community.

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with you there on Valve's consistency. Both Postal and GTA - especially GTA - have gotten far more negative publicity and backlash than Hatred, yet both franchises still exist in their entirety on Steam. If a large enough community is all it takes to get Valve to listen, both franchises would be off of Steam already, Greenlight would've been reworked from the ground up, and the infamous issues with Steam allowing hoards of bug-ridden and / or literally unplayable games onto the storefront would've been resolved by now.

Valve has never before removed a game for being too violent or controversial despite hosting numerous games and franchises that put Hatred to shame on these fronts, so the removal of Hatred does indeed come across as inconsistent.

Off Topic: Fuck ads in Captchas. No, I'm not going to type marketing bullshit about a brand of cars I don't give a rat's ass about just to friggin' post in a gaming forum. Quit trying to sell me crap I don't want through an anti-spam system, already!

 

[ryukage_sama]

Also notice the reason they banned it? They gave no reasonable answer. No information on what rule this game violates. They have postal and manhunt, but suddenly this game is too much? If they are gonna ban it. They need a reason when they have violent games up already.

They have chosen to not sell it from their own website. If this could lead to a slippery slope of Nintendo banning it's Mario and Zelda games, then the opposite solution, of demanding that they "need a reason" could just as easily lead to an anti-free-speech system, where privately held websites are obliged to either distribute a certain type of content, or forced to "give reasons" whether they want to or not.

You are acting scared about potential censorship, while cheerfully demanding to control other people's distribution of information.

I agree. It's bizarre how many critics of Valve's decision assume that Valve didn't have a reason doing this and/or insist that as customers they're entitled to a complete briefing of Valve's rationale for the decision. It's certainly up for debate and remains to be seen as to whether this decision will benefit Valve in the long-run, but Valve can and ought to make decisions they feel is in their best interest . . . or what they would choose based on personal preference or conviction.

 

[Fappy]

Steam wants to distance itself from the controversy. I can hardly blame them. It is telling, however, that they'd remove this game but continue to publish some of the shit games that they do. I mean, some of these games Jim plays on Squirty actually have stolen art and sound assets in them. Steam continuing to do business with these kind of developers says more about them then their unwillingness to publish a genocide simulator, imo.

 

[Albino Boo]

So you admit it has nothing to do with the game itself but because Valve is submitting to moral panic? Better not release any game with killing in it at all, as people are killed everywhere all the time.

If policies have been changed then most of those game he listed would have been taken down from Steam as well.

It is not available yet. It was a green light campaign to get it on steam once released.
And I bet I can in fact dig up some horrible shit that happened around the release of these games merely because the world is one fuck up place where you can easily dig up horrible shit all the time if you just start looking.
Afghanistan and Iraq should cover me for the last 10 years alone when it comes to terrorist attacks?

Yes policies change? why are they still on the store though? ? It should be fairly easy to remove games from the store while leaving already purchased license intact and allow for codes obtained otherwise (retailers) to be activated.

Those are old stories not new ones. When Anders Breivik murdered 77 people in Norway the shops in Norway took WoW off sale. It was the appropriate course at that moment. When 9/11 happened they changed the advertising posters for Spider Man because they featured the world trade centre, again appropriate course at that moment. Postal et al are old stories and the media has long sinced moved on but the killings I mentioned are current and Valve responded to current events.

 

[Harry Mason]

+1 for "The game is tone-deaf, Valve exists under capitalism and can therefore do whatever the hell it wants."

I have nothing new to add there. However, I do find one aspect of this massively offensive...

The DOOM font they are using for the title. I get that they are trying to evoke the spirit of the franchise because a lot of people associate DOOM with mindless slaughter-fests. I understand. It's still a cheap move. If Hatred gets famous for this malarkey and pops up on newsfeeds everywhere, people, especially newer gamers, are going to subconsciously develop an association between this mean-spirited mass shooting game and the font. Then DOOM 2014 drops and new gamers, not to mention desperate news outlets, are going to have a load of preconceived notions about it, despite the fact that the blood baths in DOOM have context, justification, and the enemies fight back.

Yes, I realize this is a pointless and weakly constructed argument. I just really want to write something, anything, anywhere, about DOOM 2014. Because they aren't giving us any more news. They just aren't. Nothing. Not a reveal date, not a screengrab, no bootleg footage of QuakeCon, NOTHING. Seeing that font pop up in this boring looking asshole simulator just... Hurt. My heart rose and fell.

I'm sorry if you decided to read this post and I wasted your time not posting anything relevant to the story at hand. I just... DOOM, you know? Every aspect of my life has been falling into place after years of hard work or years of patience, but there's still this massive hole in my soul. No matter how much I do to better myself and my position in this world, id still won't release any information about DOOM, and I just feel hollow and cold...

DOOM... I love you... Come back... Hatred looks dumb and I don't care... *begins weeping softly*

 

[josemlopes]

TotalBiscuit's video on this is just perfect

Steam sells Postal 1 - which is a straight up murder spree simulator.

Postal 2 - the "pee on the dead charred bodies of women" simulator?

Postal 3? Do I even need to say anything here?

They sell GTA games. I'm just gonna say "Gauranga"

In short: They sell all kinds of games that allow you to kill innocent bystanders.

Bloody hell: They sell the Carmagedon games. You get extra points from running over bystanders with your spike-grilled car. You're meant to run people over in this game.

Skyrim - the assassins guild and their questions and assassination missions. Killing for fun and profit!


Or if its because Hatred is just 'politically incorrect' then why are games like Democracy 3 on steam? There you can set up the most horrible police state and suppres every human right you can imagine.

Binding of Isaac? Naked boy running around!? Child pornography!


There are so many potentially offensive games on Steam - this makes absolutely no sense. Valve done goofed - they done goofed hard.

If its a quality issue, then all the games that Jim Sterling makes Squirty Plays of should be taken down immediately.. but they're not.


So Valve - if nothing else - be consistent. If you dont want a certain kind of games or a certain kind of game content on Steam, then be bloody hell honest about it.

Can you tell me which one of them was available in the steam store on the after day after 2 people were killed in a cafe in Sydney by someone full of hate and then 122 school children were murdered in Pakistan. When circumstances change, policy changes.

All of them but Hatred since Hatred isnt out yet. I guess we have to blame those ones, Skyrim included.

 

[Albino Boo]

All of them but Hatred since Hatred isnt out yet. I guess we have to blame those ones, Skyrim included.

I refer you to this post here

So you admit it has nothing to do with the game itself but because Valve is submitting to moral panic? Better not release any game with killing in it at all, as people are killed everywhere all the time.

If policies have been changed then most of those game he listed would have been taken down from Steam as well.

It is not available yet. It was a green light campaign to get it on steam once released.
And I bet I can in fact dig up some horrible shit that happened around the release of these games merely because the world is one fuck up place where you can easily dig up horrible shit all the time if you just start looking.
Afghanistan and Iraq should cover me for the last 10 years alone when it comes to terrorist attacks?

Yes policies change? why are they still on the store though? ? It should be fairly easy to remove games from the store while leaving already purchased license intact and allow for codes obtained otherwise (retailers) to be activated.

Those are old stories not new ones. When Anders Breivik murdered 77 people in Norway the shops in Norway took WoW off sale. It was the appropriate course at that moment. When 9/11 happened they changed the advertising posters for Spider Man because they featured the world trade centre, again appropriate course at that moment. Postal et al are old stories and the media has long sinced moved on but the killings I mentioned are current and Valve responded to current events.

 

[ryukage_sama]

This isnt censorship of a game like ive heard, its the exact same thing as target chosing to not stock GTAV. Steam is a store and ontop of that, a private company, let them do as they wish. In my opinion valve needs to start pruning greenlight more with games worse than this. we have way too many bad games gettting through greenlight

So why are they selling Manhunt and postal 1 and 2.
censorship:
the institution, system, or practice of censoring
Censor:
a person who examines books, movies, letters, etc., and removes things that are considered to be offensive, immoral, harmful to society, etc.

By labeling the decisions of any and all media stores, online or otherwise, not to sell any given work as censorship, you're neutering the weight the term carries. Valve isn't practicing censorship of Android based games by failing to sell them. Even given that much broader definition of censorship, your given definition fails to mention the removal of a product that would be bad for business.

 

[Vigormortis]

So instead of being happy that Valve is finally starting to curate their storefront, by removing games before they go on sale, we're going to collectively ***** about censorship and consistency?

Actually, they did remove Earth: Year 2066 on a quality issue.

If anything, Valve has shown perfect consistency in taking down games either for violence or for low quality, only when it created an outrage, but not on command of a random youtube reviewer's word, or on the chance of being "potentially offensive".

That list you posted, is comparable to the list of Squirty Plays games, and Hatred is comparable to Earth: Year 2066.

There is your consistency. It would be hypocritical to expect Valve to keep up a certain game facing backlash, where in other situations they have already demonstrated their willingness to listen to a large enough community.

Precisely. When something on the platform causes enough of a controversy, they (generally speaking) react accordingly.

There have been times when they haven't, and they should still be criticized for those occasions (because they are NOT above criticism), but for the most part they do respond.

I find it fascinating, in this particular instance, that many of the same people who routinely complain that Valve doesn't listen to it's customers are now complaining that Valve keeps capitulating to their customers concerns over perceived "offensive content" on their Storefront.

It's as if last month it was:
"Valve needs to curate their storefront!"
"Valve doesn't listen to their customers!"

And now it's:
"Valve needs to stop censoring their storefront!"
"Valve needs to stop giving in to whims of their customers!"

I agree. It's bizarre how many critics of Valve's decision assume that Valve didn't have a reason doing this and/or insist that as customers they're entitled to a complete briefing of Valve's rationale for the decision. It's certainly up for debate and remains to be seen as to whether this decision will benefit Valve in the long-run, but Valve can and ought to make decisions they feel is in their best interest . . . or what they would choose based on personal preference or conviction.

Precisely number 2.

Valve are free to decide what they do and don't allow on their platform, just as users are free to decide whether or not they wish to do business with Valve.

If the removal of this, let's admit, extraordinarily shitty game bothers someone, then they should do the logical thing and stop doing business with Valve. What they shouldn't do is ***** about "censorship" after spending months demanding Valve curate their storefront.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

I find it fascinating, in this particular instance, that many of the same people who routinely complain that Valve doesn't listen to it's customers are now complaining that Valve keeps capitulating to their customers concerns over perceived "offensive content" on their Storefront.

It's as if last month it was:
"Valve needs to curate their storefront!"
"Valve doesn't listen to their customers!"

And now it's:
"Valve needs to stop censoring their storefront!"
"Valve needs to stop giving in to whims of their customers!"

Who exactly are they "listening" to here? The only hard proof we have of the game's reception on Steam was it's progress on Greenlight, which was almost universally positive by a wide margin.

I'll quote my own post earlier in the page:

Spoiler

[/spoiler]

Quite the contrary. The numbers clearly show a universally positive reaction to the Greenlight. People wanted the game. Even [i]after[/i] those articles went up letting the world know that Hatred was up on Greenlight. Even with that exposure, the game still had an overwhelmingly positive stint on Greenlight in the brief time it was up there. This is obviously very different from what 2066 went through.[/QUOTE]

So where were the people rallying against this game? Because out of 14 thousand total votes, only 1 thousand of them were against the game.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I've no love for the game, from the sounds of it, the game is Postal 2 without anything that actually gave Postal 2 merit. I do find it a tad worrying that Valve is refusing to host it, since they've nearly got a monopoly in regards to digital distribution, and we all know how important Steam is to a game based on indie dev after indie dev after indie dev. I'm not surprised though. Apparently the game is being developed by skinheads, and I certainly wouldn't want to sell something along the likes of Ethnic Cleansing in my place of business, so I can't fault Valve for that either.

To be fair, the devs have ANCESTRAL connections with politically-motivated murderers in Poland's past, but they're not criminals (or skinheads) in and of themselves. Most of the accusations regarding Destructive being staffed by radical right-wingers have been debunked.

Personally, though, I agree with your statement. I'm not seeing how Postal being done in a Twin-Stick fashion with a Grimdark aesthetic and without an ounce of humor would strike anyone as being interesting. Except maybe teenagers who just entered their Subversive phase; or impressionable and unstable sorts with a latent murder-on.