Valve Says PS3 Complexity Hinders Game Development

[Zer_]

On a final note: More difficult to develop for =/= More powerful hardware and vice versa, get that ridiculous idea out of your bloody heads because it's completely ridiculous and entirely false.

Well, I think that's the point the president was trying to make, actually. The hardware is more powerful, and therefore more difficult to learn because it is more flexible. He just did a piss-awful job of phrasing it.

If the system IS more difficult and NOT more powerful, then they have an awful fucking brick on their hands. But that doesn't appear to be the case, sense PS3 is cruising along just find (even without Valve's apps.)

It's been stated in this threat actually but the Cell architecture works something like a GPU. Each micro core is better suited for specific types of calculations. You can easily compare that to say Pixel Shader Pipelines and Vertex Shader Pipelines. Now something like the processor in the 360 is more like a unified shader model where each pipeline is adaptable and can do a much wider range of calculations. The fact that each core in the Cell's architecture is only capable of doing certain tasks is what makes developing for the platform so difficult.

Once you've grasped the general idea of multi-threaded coding it's easier to account for more threads. In the PS3's Cell case, it's a whole different beast.

 

[Jumplion]

I hope Valve knows that the PS3 can play DVDs, so if Valve is truly lazy, just release the game using DVD format instead of Blu Ray, I'm guessing that would work.

Well, that would sortof defeat the whole purpose of it being a Blu-ray, wouldn't it?

 

[hermes]

Look back to the nintendo/sony/sega days. Those consoles were never meant to be like 'pc gaming'. Each unit is identicle, unlike PCs, obviously the programming is going to be different. Unless your microsoft and develop a 'console' using the same 'codeing/achitecture' that they, you know, OWN. Totally has absolutely nothing to do with why Sony/Nintendo don't use a 'more pc like system'. Not at all.

I wonder if Gabe knows PS3 is based on Linux?

So now Microsoft owns PC architecture? And Linux is not meant to be for PCs? Right...

Back to topic... I found Kaz comments hilarious and rather stupid, but that is not the first time. However, Valve's opinion seems rather weak nowadays, because:
- Several game developers, many of them smaller than Valve have proven time and again that a pretty decent multiplataform game is doable.
- Most companies "make game experiences" with PCs, and consoles are port after that... Port to consoles is basically a testing heavy process, but prototyping is usually done on a PC. They could certainly have specialized people to port the games...

 

[murphy7801]

I hope Valve knows that the PS3 can play DVDs, so if Valve is truly lazy, just release the game using DVD format instead of Blu Ray, I'm guessing that would work.

Well, that would sortof defeat the whole purpose of it being a Blu-ray, wouldn't it?

well that was idea brought up by developers on a budget

 

[hermes]

DVD/blu-ray is the least of the problems. The PS3 has a very diferent hardware than PC/XBox 360...

 

[Xbowhyena]

I hope Valve knows that the PS3 can play DVDs, so if Valve is truly lazy, just release the game using DVD format instead of Blu Ray, I'm guessing that would work.

Well, that would sortof defeat the whole purpose of it being a Blu-ray, wouldn't it?

Yeah, but that's why I said 'if Valve is truly lazy'. They just don't want to release games for the PS3. Also, I don't see a graphical difference in multi-plat games for the PS3 anyway, like CoD4, GTA4, RE5, and others. The true power of Blu Ray only comes out in games like Killzone 2, which took 4 years to develop and polish. Blu Ray is good, but I don't think that game devs are ready to make games, in a reasonable timeframe, that make full use of it.

 

[murphy7801]

I hope Valve knows that the PS3 can play DVDs, so if Valve is truly lazy, just release the game using DVD format instead of Blu Ray, I'm guessing that would work.

Well, that would sortof defeat the whole purpose of it being a Blu-ray, wouldn't it?

Yeah, but that's why I said 'if Valve is truly lazy'. They just don't want to release games for the PS3. Also, I don't see a graphical difference in multi-plat games for the PS3 anyway, like CoD4, GTA4, RE5, and others. The true power of Blu Ray only comes out in games like Killzone 2, which took 4 years to develop and polish. Blu Ray is good, but I don't think that game devs are ready to make games, in a reasonable timeframe, that make full use of it.

well blue ray is nice but dont think its the future

 

[Rath709]

The store I work for has not sold a single PS3 since last November. All other systems continue to sell at about equal and consistent rates.

 

[murphy7801]

The store I work for has not sold a single PS3 since last November. All other systems continue to sell at about equal and consistent rates.

as much as your personal incite is interesting i feel its a little off topic

 

[Bocaj2000]

The reason why Dreamcast never made it was almost purely because of piracy and competition with Sony. Looks like the reason why the PoS3 isn't making it is because of anti-piracy and competition with Microsoft and Nintendo. I love irony. They can't [are unable to] port ANY games from PS3 to 360 because of this programming problem that they did on purpose.

I was going to buy a PS3 from Amazon, assuming it would be cheapest on there. To get a system with backwards compatibility costs $350 on a really, really good day. This doesn't include games. Then it was announced that Metal Gear 4 was coming to the 360...

I hope Valve knows that the PS3 can play DVDs, so if Valve is truly lazy, just release the game using DVD format instead of Blu Ray, I'm guessing that would work.

Well, that would sortof defeat the whole purpose of it being a Blu-ray, wouldn't it?

Yeah, but that's why I said 'if Valve is truly lazy'. They just don't want to release games for the PS3. Also, I don't see a graphical difference in multi-plat games for the PS3 anyway, like CoD4, GTA4, RE5, and others. The true power of Blu Ray only comes out in games like Killzone 2, which took 4 years to develop and polish. Blu Ray is good, but I don't think that game devs are ready to make games, in a reasonable timeframe, that make full use of it.

It is actually relatively easy to port a PC or 360 game to the PS3, which is why there is little graphical difference. However PS3 exclusives are almost impossible to port. [I could be wrong, but this is what I heard while discussing LBP]

 

[Kstreitenfeld]

"The complexity of the PlayStation 3 hinders quality game development."

And yet the PS3 has a higher ratio of games rated 8/10 or higher than any other system currently on the market.

Someone's not checking his facts...

Care to check your "facts" on PS3 vs PC?

 

[aRno]

Fact is, that there also is nearly no support for the PSwhatever (PS2/PS3/PSP) from Sony's side...
XBOX support is much better...

Don't get me wrong, I personally prefer Sony than XBOX, but fact is, that Sony's support is fucked up.

Which makes me quite sad, because I cannot see, why they are not supporting the companys that work "for" them (make games for their consoles)...

Strange thing...

So I can see, why Valve is not best friend with them...

 

[Rath709]

The store I work for has not sold a single PS3 since last November. All other systems continue to sell at about equal and consistent rates.

as much as your personal incite is interesting i feel its a little off topic

Personally, I feel my INSIGHT is entirely relevant to the topic. Thank you for helping me how to think though, I simply don't know how I'd function without people who know my mind better than I do. Reduced to my posts being a grammarless, punctuation devoid mess, most likely...

--

In all seriousness, I had this discussion with somebody at work earlier, he being a PS3 owner who often tries to convert the local heathens to his enlightened 1080p church. I've managed to stave off his preaching for the time being by assuring him that I might buy a PS3 Slim when it becomes available, but then more for the Blu-Ray aspect than the gaming one. There just aren't that many games available for the machine that I have any actual interest in, and the way Valve describe developing for the thing doesn't leave me that optimistic about the potential it has to improve its' catalogue.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Though I should note there are several games on the PS3 I am interested in playing, the Wii and 360 keep coming out with games I want to play as well...and its kinda hard to justify saving when ODST, MW2, C2 and such are around the corner for the 360.....

 

[300lb. Samoan]

On a final note: More difficult to develop for =/= More powerful hardware and vice versa, get that ridiculous idea out of your bloody heads because it's completely ridiculous and entirely false.

Well, I think that's the point the president was trying to make, actually. The hardware is more powerful, and therefore more difficult to learn because it is more flexible. He just did a piss-awful job of phrasing it.

If the system IS more difficult and NOT more powerful, then they have an awful fucking brick on their hands. But that doesn't appear to be the case, sense PS3 is cruising along just find (even without Valve's apps.)

It's been stated in this threat actually but the Cell architecture works something like a GPU. Each micro core is better suited for specific types of calculations. You can easily compare that to say Pixel Shader Pipelines and Vertex Shader Pipelines. Now something like the processor in the 360 is more like a unified shader model where each pipeline is adaptable and can do a much wider range of calculations. The fact that each core in the Cell's architecture is only capable of doing certain tasks is what makes developing for the platform so difficult.

Once you've grasped the general idea of multi-threaded coding it's easier to account for more threads. In the PS3's Cell case, it's a whole different beast.

Yea, I mentioned that, although you seem to know it better than I do.

So it sounds like it's an even bigger can of worms because it isn't definably more powerful, it's just that the PS3 architecture has more potential. AI-YAI-YAI!!!

I think the easiest way to explain it to the non-ultra-geek is that an x86 multicore, what's in your Windows machine and your 360, has two-four equal cores that all work in the kitchen making the same meal. The PS3's Cell processor has two managers that command the six chefs, one chops the lettuce, another stirs the soup, another cleans the dishes... one sautees the lightmap, another browns the textures, another bakes the AI...

 

[MR T3D]

this is a little crazy..but hear me out, i guess
source engine is like a chick w/issues, and its 'daddy' is the PC, and the 360 looks a lot like her daddy, while the ps3 is some foreign guy, exotic and such, and the wii is clearly just feable cougar-bait...

 

[murphy7801]

The store I work for has not sold a single PS3 since last November. All other systems continue to sell at about equal and consistent rates.

as much as your personal incite is interesting i feel its a little off topic

Personally, I feel my INSIGHT is entirely relevant to the topic. Thank you for helping me how to think though, I simply don't know how I'd function without people who know my mind better than I do. Reduced to my posts being a grammarless, punctuation devoid mess, most likely...

--

In all seriousness, I had this discussion with somebody at work earlier, he being a PS3 owner who often tries to convert the local heathens to his enlightened 1080p church. I've managed to stave off his preaching for the time being by assuring him that I might buy a PS3 Slim when it becomes available, but then more for the Blu-Ray aspect than the gaming one. There just aren't that many games available for the machine that I have any actual interest in, and the way Valve describe developing for the thing doesn't leave me that optimistic about the potential it has to improve its' catalogue.

yes well im bit of a bastard

 

[Jumplion]

well blue ray is nice but dont think its the future

Well, why not? I'm genuinely asking, why not? It's selling as well as DVDs were around this point in time and from what I've heard it's doing relatively well. Obviously a newer, better format could very well be on the horizon, but so far it's doing well. And don't give me the excuse of "Digital Distribution is the future!" because I can rant all day and night about that but the bottom line is that DD and Physical formats can only compliment each other, never overshadow.

But WOW did I get ranty.

Care to check your "facts" on PS3 vs PC?

Frankly I don't think it's fair comparing a console to a PC. Considering the PC is the oldest and most viable platform ever so far. If you want to include every single PC game to date, then include every PS1, PS2, PS3, and if you're generous PSP game ever made also. But let's simplify it to "PS3 has a higher ratio of games rated 8/10 or higher than any other console currently on the market." as when people say "system" they usually mean "console" anyway.

 

[murphy7801]

well blue ray is nice but dont think its the future

Well, why not? I'm genuinely asking, why not? It's selling as well as DVDs were around this point in time and from what I've heard it's doing relatively well. Obviously a newer, better format could very well be on the horizon, but so far it's doing well. And don't give me the excuse of "Digital Distribution is the future!" because I can rant all day and night about that but the bottom line is that DD and Physical formats can only compliment each other, never overshadow.

But WOW did I get ranty.

Care to check your "facts" on PS3 vs PC?

Frankly I don't think it's fair comparing a console to a PC. Considering the PC is the oldest and most viable platform ever so far. If you want to include every single PC game to date, then include every PS1, PS2, PS3, and if you're generous PSP game ever made also. But let's simplify it to "PS3 has a higher ratio of games rated 8/10 or higher than any other console currently on the market." as when people say "system" they usually mean "console" anyway.

i do not think digital distribution is the future by any means there to many inherent flaws in the system. i believe we might move a cartridge format using ssd hard drives for super fast response times and lack of corrupting

 

[300lb. Samoan]

i do not think digital distribution is the future by any means there to many inherent flaws in the system. i believe we might move a cartridge format using ssd hard drives for super fast response times and lack of corrupting

i think SD would be an EXCELLENT distribution format... USB flash might be even better, for the sake of universal installation. but digital distribution is a big money maker right now, I wouldn't discount it too quickly