Valve Says PS3 Complexity Hinders Game Development

Woe Is You

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Jumplion said:
Well, Insomniac, Naughty Dog, and Sucker Punch all consist of about 200 people more or less in their company, so....
All of those developers are single platform and arguably have less on their plate than Valve currently does.

Jumplion said:
Okay, I'm getting sick of people going "LOLOLOL INDIGO DINGO TEH FAG FANBOI NUB LOLOLOL" just because he favors Sony over whatever. I'll admit, he gets off his rocker sometimes, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any less valid points than anyone else here!
It's not that he's a Sony fanboy. It's that he's obnoxious about it, deliberately obtuse when refuted and it doesn't take him long to start resorting to insults. A Microsoft/Apple/Nintendo/Insertcompanyhere fanboy with such tendencies would be just as irritating.

There are plenty of Sony fans (including you) that get their point across with insults, without twisting what other people say. Why is it so hard for him? That's the problem. I think I've said this plenty of times.
 

oliveira8

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Jumplion said:
*snip*

oliveira8 said:
Well, Insomniac, Naughty Dog, and Sucker Punch all consist of about 200 people more or less in their company, so....
Did you notice that all those 3 work for Sony?

And that none of them has 4 multiplayer games running and keeping them patched/updated? Or a digital distribution system with a game library of over 600 titles? And that none of them are developing 3 titles in which their predecessores were beyond huge?

No they are not.

Don't compare Naughty Dog that only develops to Sony and the only game they developing right now is Uncharted 2(right?) to a company that is developing 3 games, keeping 4 running and a huge business working.

(Not trying to put down Naughty Dog and the others you mentioned, in terms that they are horrible and make crap games which they don't. Its that on a point of view they cannot be compared.)
 

wyldefire

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*finishes will*

Well if you ask me I think Valve is just lazy. And not lazy in the fanboy "drrr Valve jus don't want to lern the powah of the PS3," lazy as in they're not putting out enough new content and technology for a developer of their size and pedigree.

Think about it seriously for a moment. The Half-Life expansions have taken forever to come out despite being very short. L4D and Portal were great, but weren't actually developed by Valve proper. The dev teams for those games were incorporated into Valve after development started on those games. So the majority of Half-Life team hasn't be hasn't been working any of the recent stuff.

We haven't seen squat regarding HL 2: E3 or any new IP's. And to top it all off they're still using the Source engine, which looks laughably bad compared to other high profile shooters.

Truth be told, I don't think Valve has it in for the PS3, I just think it's easier for them to publicly hate it, seeing as it isn't the most popular console, and give that as a reason to not develop on it rather than go through the arduous task of actually updating their software.

*hugs family one last time*
 

social_outcast

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"It is easy to see by formal-logical methods that there exist certain [instruction sets] that are in abstract adequate to control and cause the execution of any sequence of operations... the realy decisive considerations from the present point of view, in selection and [instruction set], are more of a practical nature: SIMPLICITY of the equipment demanded by the [instruction set], and the CLARITY of its applications to the actually important problems together with the speed of its handling of those problems"
-Burcks, Goldstine and Von Neumann, 1947

Words to live by
An arcitecture that is unituitive is utterly useless - the idea of designing a platform upon which to deploy software is to make it as robust and open as possible
Clearly Sony doenst know the 4 design principles of an arcitecture
1. smaller is faster
2. make the common case fast
3. good design requires good compromise
4. Simplcity favours regularity

reference: "Computer Organization and Design - the hardware/software interface" - Patterson and Hennessy ISBN: 978-0-12-370606-5
 

Jumplion

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Woe Is You said:
It's not that he's a Sony fanboy. It's that he's obnoxious about it, deliberately obtuse when refuted and it doesn't take him long to start resorting to insults. A Microsoft/Apple/Nintendo/Insertcompanyhere fanboy with such tendencies would be just as irritating.

There are plenty of Sony fans (including you) that get their point across with insults, without twisting what other people say. Why is it so hard for him? That's the problem. I think I've said this plenty of times.
And to this I say; so? How does this excuse people insulting Indigo back? So because he gets obnoxious at times it justifies people acting as much, or not more, of a douchebag as he does at times?

And hopefully you mean "there are plenty of Sony fans (including you) that don't get their point across with insults, etc".....

Broken Wings said:
Jumpilion, can you teach me how to be able to calm down a situation and be awesome?
Uh, eat a hearty breakfast full of fibers and carbohydrates and juice?

oliveira8 said:
Well, VALVe pretty much develops exclusively for PCs with EA handling the ports. My point was that if those small developers (like, really small, Naughty Dog has 90 employees according to Wikipedia) can easily work with the PS3, regardless of how much "special treatment" they get, then I see no reason why a big (as in reputation) company can't do something. Though you're right with them being exclusive to each other.

Not that I care that much, VALVe can do whatever they want so it's all moot. I still stand by my statement that VALVe can be extremely lazy at times, hiring a group that had their game pretty much finished from the start (IE, Counter Strike, Portal, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress, etc...) and basically pulling a Tom Clancy and having their name behind the product.
 

Woe Is You

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But folks, let's approach this from another angle, shall we?

While Valve devs say this is about PS3 complexity, that isn't the whole part of the story. I don't believe so, anyway. They own a game platform. What is the best option for them here? The 360 version is relatively easy to do thanks to the tools being similar but even then they want people to buy Valve games from Steam, because that's where most of the money comes from and where they have complete control over the process. From Valve's perspective, developing for the PS3 is not "too complex" but "complex enough to make the return of investment diminishing returns, if that".

Jumplion said:
And hopefully you mean "there are plenty of Sony fans (including you) that don't get their point across with insults, etc".....
I was missing an "out" there. Guess where.

(That means yes, there's a mistake in my post.)
 

zahr

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OuroborosChoked said:
"The complexity of the PlayStation 3 hinders quality game development."

And yet the PS3 has a higher ratio of games rated 8/10 or higher than any other system currently on the market.

Someone's not checking his facts...
And the best games made have almost all been PC or Xbox/Xbox 360. Shall I list a few?

Thief. Thief 2. Dawn of War. Winter Assault. Dark Crusade. KotOR. KotOR2. Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate 2. Planescape Torment. Diablo 2. Starcraft. Halo. Halo 3. Gears of War. Gears of War 2. Homeworld. Homeworld 2. Master of Orion 2. Sins of a Solar Empire. Dwarf Fortress. System Shock. System Shock 2. Mask of the Betrayer. World of Warcraft. Guild Wars. Nox. Company of Heroes.

Now your turn - see if you can find a game on the PS3 that compares to any of these.

The PS3 has no games that compare to any of the ones I listed.
 

oliveira8

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Jumplion said:
oliveira8 said:
Well, VALVe pretty much develops exclusively for PCs with EA handling the ports. My point was that if those small developers (like, really small, Naughty Dog has 90 employees according to Wikipedia) can easily work with the PS3, regardless of how much "special treatment" they get, then I see no reason why a big (as in reputation) company can't do something. Though you're right with them being exclusive to each other.

Not that I care that much, VALVe can do whatever they want so it's all moot.
Well...I didn't want to say the real reason but I have to now.

"WTF VALVE???? WTF? Where the fuck is HL2:EP3?? You dont even release that piece of crap game and you go develop to the Failstation 3? FUCK YOU VALVE!! Hurry the fuck up with Ep3 then you can go play Failzone 2 and littlebig Losers on the Crapstation 3!

FUCK VALVE I WILL NEVER BUY A GAME FROM VALVE AGAIN! Those backstabbing fucktards!

Fanboys got angry cause of the 360, fanboys got angry cause of L4D2 fanboys will get angry at the PS3.

(That is not the real reason....the real reason is that they just don't want to move manpower to learn the PS3, cause they being cheap lazy bastards.)
 

Ashbax

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300lb. Samoan said:
'hai everybody, i have a great idea for our new system

let's make it really hard to use, really esoteric and unintuitive, so it will reveal more of itself over time as people slowly discover what a pain in the ass it is to develop. the industry will really benefit from a tool that is too complex for anyone to figure out! in the meantime, let's also make it too expensive for the average consumer to purchase. we're really smart, i hope one day people can understand what great geniuses we are'
Yes, this is the mind of a Playstation dev.

Im just glad I chose my sources of gaming to be Xbox and PC, only to turn out that valve chooses those two as well ;)

Although we have to wait until valve is finished all the class updates for TF2 before we even get the goddamn new MAPS...so, although we have a bit of a wait on Xbox, in the meantime I can do what I usually do....Engineer on 2fort. Or I could just play my PC version...but theres too much lag >.< Anyway, @ Ps3 Fanboys: Nyah nyah Nyah nyah nyah
 

DeerGoMoo

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No, code is not code. Some code is easier to make, others aren't. Some code is easier to convert to other code, while others are impossible.
Simple fact about developing games on the PS3.
Companies like Valve, make the game on the PC, Then they port it to the 360/ps3. So the code is natively 'PC'. 360 = microsoft so OF COURSE Its going to be easy, it uses the exact same propritary code/software that pc gamers have, that works with Windows! Is meant to work on windows! Look at it this way, if 360 has DX9, would you be shocked? I wouldn't. If PS3 did, I'd probably drop dead.
Please, please stop posting about things you have absolutely no understanding of. I think you will find that code IS code, assembly is assembly, C++ is C++, C is C and so on. Sure, the code may have to be modified, reorganised or even re-written to function correctly with specific hardware, but it's all still the same language that compiles to machine code for that system. There's no magical special language that PS3 games are written in that's different from PC and 360; PS3 dev kits will compile C++, 360 dev kits will compile C++, as well as several other languages likely. The mere notion that some code is impossible to port is ridiculous - the only time this would be true would be in trying to implement a function for which the necessary hardware is not present, like trying to code bluetooth into a system with no bluetooth hardware.
Right, now here is the part where you need to read carefully what I'm typing. Aside from DirectX, which Windows and the 360 both have, there is no super secret code shared between PC and 360. It's not a matter of copying the PC source code into a 360 dev kit system and hitting compile, changed have to be made for the 360 too, it's just more straightforward than the PS3. Get this notion out of your head that Microsoft is in control of everything here - they aren't. By your logic, games like Doom and Quake which have native OpenGL renderers port to the PS3 all nice and simple just because the PS3 uses an OpenGL implementation. It doesn't work like that.

Another thing is this. Yes, the ps3 has harder 'architecture' to work with then People who DESIGN games for the PC.
PC, you think of everything as a giant pool of resources, you have X ram, X HDD, X CPU speed, X Vid Graphics, ect ect. Its one giant pool. You now create a game, And try to make it work on a certain set of requirements. And given the way PC/Windows works, This method works, its not meant to be 'optimized' for every pc. Thats impossible, theres to much varation.
And this is why VALVE fails at console game making. They haven't realized, that the reason Sony has won the last 2 generations, is because They HAVE optimized games for there consoles. Look at PS1. My god. NO BODY thought you could do what they did, with the resources of that system! There were people who developed games, that said they PUSHED the ps1 BEYOND what it should have been able to do. The Ps2 was similar, but not to such an extreme level.
The Main difference between Ps3, and 360 is The Ps3 is based on games being optimized in the best way possible for said console, the 360 is more about big pool of resources, and throwing what you got at it and hope the pool doesn't flood. Valve is not used to writing code that allocates Say, Physics to only work on one SPE, and animations on another, He'd rather throw it all at the PS3's single CPU and say 'see, its weak, it can't handel it' with out even touching its real power.
So wait, what? You're saying that code on the 360 isn't optimised because it's more easily ported from PC? And what on earth are you talking about saying that Sony optimises games for their consoles? It's not their job, it's up to the individual developers and teams to do that, they don't finish a game and then say, "Hey Sony, we're done now, come over here and optimise this so it runs better." And how does Valve fail at console games? Last I looked, The Orange Box was a perfectly functional and great set of games on the 360 and the PS3. Last I looked, Left 4 Dead was fully functional and great fun to play on the 360. You're just bitter that a developer has said it's a pain in the ass porting their code to a radically different architecture because it happens to be the console you like. And yeah, I think Valve might have some experience allocating things to cores, saying as Source has has multi-core support for a while now. You clearly aren't a developer, and you obviously don't work for Valve, so how can you say what they have and haven't done?

The 360 is no where near the architecture of the PS3. The 360 is basically a 'tri-core cpu'. Its 3. uhh 1.5ghz? cpus, that all work together in unison. (Not the technical terminology mind you) Again, the 'pool methodology' Think of the 360 as a gaint 50 galon drum.
The Ps3 is 8, 6 galon drums. Course, the cell doesn't work at all like the normal cpus either. They don't 'work together pooling resources', you 'dedicate' resources to specific portions of the CPU.
You don't seem to understand what an architecture is. An architecture, in computer processing, is, simply put, the set of instructions that the processor understands. In this case, the PS3 CPU understands PPC instructions. And oh look, so does the 360 and the Wii. And just to note, the 360 CPU is indeed tri core, but with each core clocked at 3.2GHz, the same frequency as the Cell SPEs. The 360's cores are independent and in fact are modified versions of the PPEs in Cell, as it turns out. As well as that, each core supports two threads, meaning your analogy is completely incorrect. And yeah, dedicating things to specific bits of the CPU is exactly how multi threading on multi core and HyperThreaded CPUs works, so it isn't anything special or new.

Basically developers are finding the problem with developing with the ps3 isn't Starting out on the PS3, thats easy.
Its porting.
In order to port a game from pc to ps3, or 360 to ps3, They can't just go about the 'normal' method of porting a game. They actually have to dive in and manually code the system to work with the ps3! Because they can't just throw it at the ps3 and expect it to understand what to do with it, since its needs to know 'what' to do with it all. However, by making it on the ps3, porting to pc/360 is far far easier
Your logic is incredibly flawed. How does it make any sense that PS3 code could be converted easily to 360 and PC but not vice versa, you've even said yourself that they are totally different. And having to manually code for the PS3? Well I can see that they'd have to make lots of edits in the lower level of things because of how the CPU works, but high level C++ for example is still going to be high level C++ regardless of platform. I'll admit many changes would have to be made, mostly on the CPU and GPU areas obviously, but the same goes for porting to 360, with the exception that the 360 tends to be easier. If by "manually coding for the PS3" you were indeed referring to the low level changes and the conversion of everything from DirectX -> OpenGL and CPU optimisations, then I'd just like to tell you THAT'S EXACTLY THE POINT. This is why they don't want to release on PS3, because it's so (unnecessarily by many people's opinions) different, they feel that it isn't worth their time.
Now for the love of all that is holy stop acting like Valve are incapable nitwits because they don't want to develop for your console.
 

Ashbax

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oliveira8 said:
Jumplion said:
oliveira8 said:
Well, VALVe pretty much develops exclusively for PCs with EA handling the ports. My point was that if those small developers (like, really small, Naughty Dog has 90 employees according to Wikipedia) can easily work with the PS3, regardless of how much "special treatment" they get, then I see no reason why a big (as in reputation) company can't do something. Though you're right with them being exclusive to each other.

Not that I care that much, VALVe can do whatever they want so it's all moot.
Well...I didn't want to say the real reason but I have to now.

"WTF VALVE???? WTF? Where the fuck is HL2:EP3?? You dont even release that piece of crap game and you go develop to the Failstation 3? FUCK YOU VALVE!! Hurry the fuck up with Ep3 then you can go play Failzone 2 and littlebig Losers on the Crapstation 3!

FUCK VALVE I WILL NEVER BUY A GAME FROM VALVE AGAIN! Those backstabbing fucktards!

Fanboys got angry cause of the 360, fanboys got angry cause of L4D2 fanboys will get angry at the PS3.

(That is not the real reason....the real reason is that they just don't want to move manpower to learn the PS3, cause they being cheap lazy bastards.)
Why do I get the feeling your a Playstation 3 owner? xD
 

GodofMadness

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It could be that there arnt as many PS3 sales as 360. Also the 360 has a larger cult following with the "HALO FANBOYS" and Gears of War, so it kind of makes sense to develop for the more popular consol.

And whats will all the Valve Hate. I don?t think I have played even an advantage Valve game; they have all been top notch. And yea, they take a while, yea they have a lot of other work to do, yea they have to put up with whinny little idiots every time they release something new and yea I?m a bit concerned for LFD2. But I Trust Valve, like I trust Bioware and I give them the benefit of the doubt that the games will be up to there usual quality.

and I?m shore that like every time , everyone will ***** about Valve and when the game comes out they will shut up and enjoy it like the rest of us, and wait for the next game or update to start the hole thing again.
 

Ashbax

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300lb. Samoan said:
SinisterDeath said:
360 came out one year before Ps3
So, uh. Duh?
XBox 360 Games [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games] = 679
Playstation 3 games [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_3_games] = 457
Diffence = 222 titles
XBox 360 -> 679 games / 3.5 years = 194 games per year
Playstation 3 -> 457 games / 2.5 years = 182 games per year

Wow, you're right. Only 12 less titles per year, not bad. I suppose that would be one or two three+ apps each from Valve, Bethesda, and the other PS3 neglectors. I honestly expected a much bigger difference.

::Edited for poor math skills::
Good math. Although the only reason we are higher is some exclusives and some games they just didnt bother putting on ps3 when it came out. But most games that were already out on Xbox just got copy/pasted and thrown onto Ps3. Since then the only games they missed were our exclusives.
 

Woe Is You

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It's NeoGAF, but as far as points go, everybody should read this post in particular. [http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16257985&postcount=200]
 

Ashbax

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ZahrDalsk said:
OuroborosChoked said:
"The complexity of the PlayStation 3 hinders quality game development."

And yet the PS3 has a higher ratio of games rated 8/10 or higher than any other system currently on the market.

Someone's not checking his facts...
And the best games made have almost all been PC or Xbox/Xbox 360. Shall I list a few?

Thief. Thief 2. Dawn of War. Winter Assault. Dark Crusade. KotOR. KotOR2. Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate 2. Planescape Torment. Diablo 2. Starcraft. Halo. Halo 3. Gears of War. Gears of War 2. Homeworld. Homeworld 2. Master of Orion 2. Sins of a Solar Empire. Dwarf Fortress. System Shock. System Shock 2. Mask of the Betrayer. World of Warcraft. Guild Wars. Nox. Company of Heroes.

Now your turn - see if you can find a game on the PS3 that compares to any of these.

The PS3 has no games that compare to any of the ones I listed.
Yes, and I think you will also notice that the highest ratings for those games come from the Ps3 Magazines, whereas all-round game critics tend to rate it lower. Just check any "Blockbuster" game box, and note how the magazine for the system (Be it xbox, pc or ps3) will tend to rate higher, or at least give a better comment.

So its pretty much the same thing that happened with halo 3, sure it was a good game, but the reviews were a bit exaggerated on the box, becuase bungie paid the critics. Its just business for game makers - say your console has the 1337ezt gaemz, people will buy it.
 

oliveira8

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Ashbax said:
I have no Wii, PS3 or 360.

I do want to buy a PS3. I went to the market to see the prices of PS3/HD tv(cause I seen what PS3 games look in TV that don't support HD and let me tell you those subtitles are hard to read and the quality is not as good.) and games. Till I saw the price of inFAMOUS. 74 epic fucking Euros. My eyes blew out of my sockets and I had to stop my price research to glue them back.

(I know theres probably cheaper places to buy inFAMOUS...)
 

Therumancer

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Well I think part of the problem might be that game developers are increasingly differant from actual coders. Right now most game designers want to be able to grab a pre-existing engine someone else developed, tweak it a little, and then turn a bunch of graphic artists loose on it to make it look differant.

While Valve releases some good games, I think part of their problem is that they would prefer to pimp their engine on an easy to program system. While the PS-3 is capable of more, learning to use it to full capacity is also harder, and not condusive to first person shovelware.

From what I've read Valve's "Source Engine" which they take credit for, is largely based on Havok and I'm guessing it's much easier to get that engine to work on the 360 than the PS3.


With no offense to Valve, what do they make? They make first person action games. Portal, Half Life, Team Fortress, Left For Dead. I can't think of much else they have done. Less work is going to be involved on a system like the 360 for this kind of thing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that beyond the simple question of whether a specific game is good or not, a lot of developers have turned into a bunch of slackers. The PS-3 is too much like work.


Not my most coherant post, but I hopefully got my point accross.

There are a lot of factors, but at the end of the day I think the PS-3 was intended more for actual game development, and not an endless slew of games simply built onto an existing skeletal framework.

I suspect what Sony was trying to say when they were talking about how they intended the system not to be mastered too quickly, was that they were hoping to make it relatively difficult to keep recycling the same engine again and again so that way people would keep making new stuff, as opposed to people replaying Source, Havok, Unreal, etc... again and again with new graphics... because in the end that is what a lot of games are today.

As much as many (like Yahtzee) likes to think that Valve walks on water, what you you think they are developing? Given the option do you think they will do something new and exciting, or simply toss out another first person action game based on at most a slight update of the same engine they have been using all along?

Almost guaranteed, when taken down to the code Left For Dead 2 is going to be almost identical to Left For Dead 1. The sequel is doubtlessly coming so fast because it took
very little work to actually do.


>>>----Therumancer--->