Valve Triumphs Over German Consumer Group

[zumbledum]

good result for me to , i seem to be one of the few people that understood what i was buying from steam and dont have a problem with owning a licence not a game.i certainly dont want people able to resell licence's

 

[Vegosiux]

They do give refunds actually though. I've gotten one. And who's criticizing Early Access? the rubes who did not read the terms of service. News flash if you buy a half finished game willingly, that was your decision as a consumer.

I have not once bought an EA (hey, what a coincidence) game on Steam, and I still think the concept is just atrocious. Having people pay you so that they can do work for you?

Yeah, well, maybe I should start charging people for fixing my plumbing, instead of the other way around...

 

[Something Amyss]

Valve Triumphs Over German Consumer Group

Consumers suffer yet another loss as valve buys out consumer protection by using courts to protect their virtual monopoly.

Corrected that for you.

Edit: corrected myself

And thank God. If Steam had to provide customer service, they might close up shop.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Okay, no, you cannot use triumph for the friggin' bad guys. This is not a triumph, anymore than Hitler's invasion of Poland was a triumph. It's a gorram travesty.

 

[freaper]

For a company that claims to value the consumer, they sure seem to dislike the idea of us owning video games and doing things people normally do with things they own.

Y'know, like returning a game if it turns out to be shit, which is increasingly becoming the case with new releases on Steam, since the idea of quality control goes completely over their heads, or reselling or giving away a game once you've put enough time into it, which once you've played a game through several times is a pretty damn appealing option.

You don't rent movies directed by Adam Sandler just like you don't buy games that look like obvious turds.

OT: I thought Germany was pretty strict when it came down to consumer rights? At least they're doing something about this wonky classification of videogames.

 

[Grabehn]

really dont get the issue here. Valve is good to us, dont treat us like walking wallets or like brain dead twats. Why does no one go after EA for all the bullshit they pull over the consumer. Like the recent Dungeon Keeper "mobile game" THAT kinda out right shit should be taking to court. But i dont see why ppl are getting all pissy over steam.

Because no matter how god awful the Origin system might be, or any of EA's practices for that matter, Origin does allow the "refund" thingy, and Steam doesn't do that nor allows you to sell your "copy", which is why the German group went against Steam to begin with.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

For a company that claims to value the consumer, they sure seem to dislike the idea of us owning video games and doing things people normally do with things they own.

Y'know, like returning a game if it turns out to be shit, which is increasingly becoming the case with new releases on Steam, since the idea of quality control goes completely over their heads, or reselling or giving away a game once you've put enough time into it, which once you've played a game through several times is a pretty damn appealing option.

You don't rent movies directed by Adam Sandler just like you don't buy games that look like obvious turds.

OT: I thought Germany was pretty strict when it came down to consumer rights? At least they're doing something about this wonky classification of videogames.

Funny you should use a comparison to renting movies, because that's exactly what Valve (and the rest of the industry minus GoG, Humble Bundle, and a few other groups on the fringes) is trying to turn "sales" of video games into: a rental. And anything that reinforces the legality of EULAs is one step closer to that being as true in reality as it is on that BS pile of legalese.

 

[FogHornG36]

Snip

That is incorrect, when you buy a game from steam you are buying a License of that game, but really with this logic, why can i not sell the music i bought on itunes to someone else?

Secondly if you are trying to return a game because it doesn't work on your computer, or something reasonable then you can get a refund steam has been doing it for a long time now, but you do not have the right to return a game after you played it because you are board of it, or because you bought a game, it was exactly what they said it was, but you didn't like it.

Im so sick of people saying that steam is so good one day, and then the next that steam is super Hitler.

 

[viranimus]

No, you get sales because Valve holds entirely too much industry clout and does not have to compete directly with anyone.

GoG? Desura? Origin? Greenman? Battle.net? Humble Bundle?

Yeah, I'm counting a lot of direct competition there sweetie.

Ok, How much of Paradox, 2k, Bethesda, Telltale libraries can you buy from each of those outlets? Thats indirect competition. Now compare how many of the various developers you can buy on those outlets, who you cannot buy on steam, That is industry clout. Need more examples? How many items can you obtain via say Desura or Humble that is nothing more than steam redirection?

Well then, that's a facet of the market place. The publishers and devs prefer steam over the others...perhaps due to the business practices of Steam? Hmmmm, possible yes?

Possible, yes, Or its just as possible( if not more likely) they submit to steams practices for the hopes of greater exposure due to Steams virtual "natural" monopoly. Steam uses their clout in the industry to dictate terms. They know if anyone doesnt agree all they have to do is say "What are you going to do? Go to Origin?!? HAHAH Good luck, enjoy the 30 copies you will sell."

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

No, you get sales because Valve holds entirely too much industry clout and does not have to compete directly with anyone.

GoG? Desura? Origin? Greenman? Battle.net? Humble Bundle?

Yeah, I'm counting a lot of direct competition there sweetie.

Ok, How much of Paradox, 2k, Bethesda, Telltale libraries can you buy from each of those outlets? Thats indirect competition. Now compare how many of the various developers you can buy on those outlets, who you cannot buy on steam, That is industry clout. Need more examples? How many items can you obtain via say Desura or Humble that is nothing more than steam redirection?

Well then, that's a facet of the market place. The publishers and devs prefer steam over the others...perhaps due to the business practices of Steam? Hmmmm, possible yes?

Guaranteed, actually. Because those business practices involve removing that pesky right of first sale that they've been railing against, despite it being, you know, a right. One that exists to protect against this kind of industry BS.

 

[oceanwavezero]

I don't see why people feel entitled to resell their steam library, when you purchase a game on steam, hell, when you install steam, you are presented their terms of use.

This isn't ownership of something, this is more akin to a contract, you agree that by paying for the use of the game you understand you won't be able to resell or use it without steam.

If you want to resell you can just buy it through another avenue of purchase, there is ABSOLUTELY no impetus on valve to allow you to resell.

There's nothing to do with consumer rights here, because you should have understood their conditions with anything you purchase from them. Welcome to the little box you check when steam updates its terms and EVERY TIME YOU BUY A GAME.

There's no reason to need to resell games anyway, if you use their sales effectively there shouldn't be any reason for you to not have access to more games than you can play anyway.

 

[Vegosiux]

Again, remember, you don't have to buy a game early access... and if you do choose to buy an early access game there must be some benefit you believe you'll gain from your purchase. No one purchases anything they that they don perceive any value in.

I do not have to buy early access, correct. But I can still dislike the concept and explain my reasons for disliking it. Even if I've not even once been directly involved with it. I dislike many other gaming concepts I do steer away from, and despite them not directly affecting me, still vocally oppose them. Like "freemium", or "day 1 unlockable content" for example.

But indirectly, I still am a rationally selfish economic being, and since I perceive those concepts as something harmful to me if they're not contained, I don't have to be directly affected to voice my concerns or criticisms.

 

[SinisterGehe]

And german courts fuck up again! Looks like they are just as stupid in berlin as they are in köln.

No they are not.

I am a son of an entrepreneur who got his business started in the 90's by doing accounting software that became popular amongst small Finnish companies and he even got "Best product of 2001" reward. He made the they money that he has built his and the family's future on the license costs of the program.
I asked my father about this when this started and he just said "If this would have gone through about 15 years ago I would never been able to afford the house you grew up in"
-So that is my base for my thinking.

I dare you to develop software with license DRM then be about your license being sold without your control. And the after the 1st wave of sales try making your capital back on it. You need to get it all back on 1st or 2nd wave or your loose - since people who wait will always buy cheaper.

As much I am for cheaper games and entertainment. This would cause the initial cost for all licenses of games to go up in order for developers and publishers to make sure they get their investment back.

I am happy this didn't go through and I think why it lost during oral arguments. But not sure or saying anything until I am sure.

Also yes do call me a horrible capitalistic corporation whore. I don't care.

 

[Vegosiux]

Also yes do call me a horrible capitalistic corporation whore. I don't care.

I'm not going to call you that, but I will say that your post seemed rather confrontational and gave off a vibe as if you feel your opinions on this matter are more valid just because you happened to have been born to someone who makes a living with software development.

 

[viranimus]

Snip

That is incorrect, when you buy a game from steam you are buying a License of that game, but really with this logic, why can i not sell the music i bought on itunes to someone else?

Secondly if you are trying to return a game because it doesn't work on your computer, or something reasonable then you can get a refund steam has been doing it for a long time now, but you do not have the right to return a game after you played it because you are board of it, or because you bought a game, it was exactly what they said it was, but you didn't like it.

Im so sick of people saying that steam is so good one day, and then the next that steam is super Hitler.

LOL, I have been solidly against Steam since they went hostile and made unreasonably demands of me, and held my content that I had purchased through them hostage until I agree to their unlawful TOS. Im not an idiot, I know Steam has its pros and cons, But at the same time I also know Steams Cons are potentially catestrophic.

Now As I said before there is a difference between ownership of intellectual property and ownership of a copy of a product made for mass distribution. This license nonsense is moot because all it is is people willingly ignoring the difference in levels of ownership and simply accepting steams attempt at trying to convert products into subscriptions via a licensing. agreement

To answer your Itunes question, because of what I already explained how corporations will see what other corporations can sucessfully get away with and follow suit, and expand it further.

No one said anything of expecting a refund on a purchased product after you played it, from the distribution.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

And german courts fuck up again! Looks like they are just as stupid in berlin as they are in köln.

No they are not.

I am a son of an entrepreneur who got his business started in the 90's by doing accounting software that became popular amongst small Finnish companies and he even got "Best product of 2001" reward. He made the they money that he has built his and the family's future on the license costs of the program.
I asked my father about this when this started and he just said "If this would have gone through about 15 years ago I would never been able to afford the house you grew up in"
-So that is my base for my thinking.

I dare you to develop software with license DRM then be about your license being sold without your control. And the after the 1st wave of sales try making your capital back on it. You need to get it all back on 1st or 2nd wave or your loose - since people who wait will always buy cheaper.

As much I am for cheaper games and entertainment. This would cause the initial cost for all licenses of games to go up in order for developers and publishers to make sure they get their investment back.

I am happy this didn't go through and I think why it lost during oral arguments. But not sure or saying anything until I am sure.

Also yes do call me a horrible capitalistic corporation whore. I don't care.

And I'm sure the Rockefeller and Carnegie heirs were against anti-trust laws. Didn't make monopolies any less wrong.

 

[SinisterGehe]

Also yes do call me a horrible capitalistic corporation whore. I don't care.

I'm not going to call you that, but I will say that your post seemed rather confrontational and gave off a vibe as if you feel your opinions on this matter are more valid just because you happened to have been born to someone who makes a living with software development.

I am not saying someone's opinion is worth more than other - pardon if I give the impression out.
But I am first in the line to inherit the IP's of my father when he retires (which can be from his health standpoint anything from 5-15 years). This includes some physical product of the other half of the company, the accounting program (Still used today), firm and everything that belongs to it.
So I have some opinions about this. Well opinions is most likely wrong word to use - worries would be the proper.
Seeing that I have no experience/willingness/interest to run accounting firm. I most likely will dissolve all the program side IP and assets and continue the other half of the company that has physical product.

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

Also yes do call me a horrible capitalistic corporation whore. I don't care.

I'm not going to call you that, but I will say that your post seemed rather confrontational and gave off a vibe as if you feel your opinions on this matter are more valid just because you happened to have been born to someone who makes a living with software development.

Not to mention the last part come off with arrogance.

Born in a family that managed to make bank on doing something not everyone else likes, cool and amazing but by the end of the day when we want to own something, not be cheated out and sold a license that gives you more tighter control and grip and us next to nothing.

He may have that line of thought and be sure as hell with his opinion but that doesn't suddenly make it the truth of justice that all must follow, not everyone is going to like that let alone accept such an opinion, which is why germany was at valve in the first place.

To want to turn all of gaming into mere renting licenses is just being down right scummy no matter what way you look at it, same with everything really that tries to con you out of ownership.

people more or less want to own things, objects of their desires, not everyone wants everything to be lumped into "services" and "licenses".

 

[viranimus]

No, you get sales because Valve holds entirely too much industry clout and does not have to compete directly with anyone.

GoG? Desura? Origin? Greenman? Battle.net? Humble Bundle?

Yeah, I'm counting a lot of direct competition there sweetie.

Ok, How much of Paradox, 2k, Bethesda, Telltale libraries can you buy from each of those outlets? Thats indirect competition. Now compare how many of the various developers you can buy on those outlets, who you cannot buy on steam, That is industry clout. Need more examples? How many items can you obtain via say Desura or Humble that is nothing more than steam redirection?

Well then, that's a facet of the market place. The publishers and devs prefer steam over the others...perhaps due to the business practices of Steam? Hmmmm, possible yes?

Possible, yes, Or its just as possible( if not more likely) they submit to steams practices for the hopes of greater exposure due to Steams virtual "natural" monopoly. Steam uses their clout in the industry to dictate terms. They know if anyone doesnt agree all they have to do is say "What are you going to do? Go to Origin?!? HAHAH Good luck, enjoy the 30 copies you will sell."

You underestimate the power sellers have in this market. sure Steam is free to dictate terms but remember, with nothing toe sell steam has no business and if another distributor is offering better deals to the sellers they will flock to that distributor. The market place is a very fluid thing

Right, and thats exactly why Steam went the route of Green light, to further cement that dominance because they dont want another distributor encroaching on them so they adopted a strategy of sucking up every game even before its ready for release so that developers dont try to go a different way of distribution. That way they stop "overnight sensations" from springing up and making enough money that they have the freedom to say "we dont need you" like Notch basically did.

It was a smart move. Only problem is they had not anticipated the backlash of people being resentful for being sold trash.

So sucking up virtually ALL indie gaming development, along with maintaining their stranglehold on more established indie developers and triple A development they position themselves to be THE ONLY storefront, even if there are others out there, its that massive library that gives valve its power and control and they are exhibiting they will NOT give that up.

 

[SinisterGehe]

.-Snipytisnip-.

And I'm sure the Rockefeller and Carnegie heirs were against anti-trust laws. Didn't make monopolies any less wrong.[/quote]

Steam has monopoly as there are people using it. There are other sites and services slowly popping up, but sadly, steam has become that way because it just happens to have the best offering of materials. Hell even my father (Yes the father I talked of earlier) got Steam account to play "Ship simulator extremes"! And now my mother wants me to recommend her some games there - MY MOTHER (over 50 years old now) - because she is bored with the Wii game we got her!
If steam can attract people like these, then it is doing something right.
But being steam user for... 7-8 years now? I have seen that the garden has grown some weeds and desperately needs someone to sort the shit out. Because lately more and more material that is just bad, no excuses bad, unfinished and unsupported has been leaking through to it. No quality control.

And sadly yes currently steam is the one that defines the on-gong trends of video gaming.
But there are other services you can use, every major publisher has their own, GOG, Desura. Then there are the consoles. There are platforms for you to use. But yet steam keeps going as #1 for some reason.

If you are not happy with them - then do not use their service. Which sadly has been the best service for me.