Valve Triumphs Over German Consumer Group

[Strazdas]

The money for a retail sale is already low enough for them, the money is split up among
1. Console owner
2. Publisher
3. Retail store
5. game devs
and you call them greedy when the company that sells their game actively going against them by offering a second hand game. There are reason for online keys on console and the massive amount of DLC and close to zero free content. Because after first day of sale they really don't get that much.

Both number 1 and number 3 can be done away with. COnsole owner has no stake in any games money. they sell consoles. you pay for consoles. if they cant make them profitable, tough. Somehow you dont pay car manufacturer each time you buy new tires now do you? Yet consoles are the only market where this is somehow ok.

If publishers actually published games and get paid for publishing only they could both make a profit and take a lower cut. As it is right now publishers buy games from dev studios and then simply reek in the money. This would leave far more for the game developers to take, thus allowing them to lower the prices significantly.
If for example you pay 5 dollars to microsoft each time you buy a console game, thats 5 dollars they are robbing from you.

It is true that game sales are a diminishing numbers after sale. And? what other industry sells you a product and then demands extra payment to unlock parts of it? Do you pay extra after a month for your breakes on a car to start working?
Every market survives with first sale doctrine and manages to sell on first wave enough to stay profitable, yet gaming is somehow special and should be allwoed to extort us? i dont think so.

You know, what we pay for DLC used to be free content. and we got it in the name of patches. heck, for games like civilziation patches opened whole new game modes with thier own balancing, for free. and yet they still made tons of money. Maybe they should stop overbloating their budgets, then they dont have to cry about not having enough money to buy new car every year. Or and while we are at it maybe stop paying your CEO 30 millions salary if your so worried about a million dollars loss?

The buyer come in to the store and is full set on buying the game, the seller says they have a used copy for 5? less. Loss in sale because the person was given a used copy that he did not know about.

I think you need to understand what "loss" is. Loss would be if the game developer would loose money because if it. not they only loose potential to gain money. If i want to sell a table for 10.000 dollars and another person sells one for 1.000 dollars. by buying from him the person makes me a "loss of sale". should i sue him now?

But the game would be cheaper on the second hand market on steam so they would have to break that barrier first before actually getting any kind of sale.

And?

It doesn't matter how long it is. There are people who will sell games after beaten it. Doesn't matter how much it cost them.

Read again: i didnt say longer. i said better. you know, games you DONT want to sell right after you beat them.

Maybe you haven't been in to the market that long then. There are more companies who do it and when fans still play the game they actually release a patch.

i have been "in the market" for close to 14 years now. i do not know if you consider that "long" or not.
Only the very popular software gets support, and even then not that often. and if we look at software outside of gaming such support is pretty much nonexistant and you have to do all the legwork (like installing obsolete drivers to run accounting software). Updating software to meet new OS and hardware configurations is a rare occasions. Sure windows 7 made this somewhat easier by providing a lot of backward support, but windows 8 dropped it all again and plenty of programs simply dont work on win 8. and im talking programs you pay 10.000 dollars for a single copy.

The difference in postal service and digital is about 0-30 days of waiting. Then you have to find the right shop that sell that game too. How many shops do you think you are going to look through before finding it? You might not think its bad but a lot companies would most likely stop selling if they saw a massive loss in sales on PC. It cost to port over games.

shops and postal services are getting better all the time. its not hard to find a copy online with 1-2 days shipping nowadays. same 1-2 days it takes to download a steam game for quite a few people.
Yes, it costs to port games over to consoles, it costs even more having to design games on PC for controllers then proting them to consoles and then porting them back to PC. why nto cut out the console middleman?
Because, you know, all games ARE designed on PCs.

People on steam are most often waiting for a sale to come around before buying the game, with second hand they can skip that and get a cheaper copy within few days at most. Then people on steam are greedy, they will wait for a sale or wait until a major holiday before actually buying a game because they know it will be on sale. Companies make more money on sales than first day sale.

So people getting their games faster is bad? okay.

A used Digital sale is in the same condition as it will be in the next 10 years. No matter how many people buy it and play it. A used car is different. The parts on the car are worn out. Its not in mint condition. It goes for anything that is physical. Also these used cars or any other used product show up 2-5year or after that being bought.

irrelevant when dealing with principle of first sale doctrine. I can buy a car and keep it in mint condition for 10 years as well, does not matter that the manufacturer has to have a cut.

Which comes back to the crux of one of my points in the previous post.

You criticized Steam for requiring someone to be online to download/install a game. Yet, you openly praise services like GoG and Desura even though they require the exact same stipulation.

Again...double standards.

You were correct about the DCMA.
Here however i would like to point out that he specifically said install. and you CAN install games bought from GOG even if you have not visited GOG for years or have internet. That is because GOG games have no DRM. Therefore double standart does not apply here. Altrough i admit the other person is making stuff up about steam.

The offline mode works virtually flawlessly nowadays. Once you've installed a game on Steam you can play it in offline mode indefinitely.

That implies you set up offline mode before the problem started. For example i did not set up offline mode because i am always only anyway and my internet last crashed over a year ago. However one day i came back from work and found myself unable to play steam game. You know why? because steam servers overloaded due to DDoSing (im sure you remmeber the news article about it) and steam told me it could not connect to the server and therefore could not start. When i tried to start the game it told me i need to login into Steam, however i was unable to do that because steam servers were not responding, thus preventing me from playing it. Granted, if i had entered offline mode before this i would ahve avoided it, but i do not predict future and do not know when it will decide to die. i was unable to set up offline mode in such condition and was forced to not play the game. So its not flawless.

 

[Vigormortis]

snip

The only games that apply to are games that utilize either Steamworks or some other, 3rd party DRM system. Any game on the Steam Store that doesn't utilize Steamworks can be played without opening Steam; with few exceptions.

So most of your criticisms apply to this system only and not the Steam platform.

That doesn't mean Steamworks is a good thing. It just means it's not an inherent issue with the entire platform.

 

[Vigormortis]

You were correct about the DCMA.
Here however i would like to point out that he specifically said install. and you CAN install games bought from GOG even if you have not visited GOG for years or have internet. That is because GOG games have no DRM. Therefore double standart does not apply here. Altrough i admit the other person is making stuff up about steam.

Well, as I'd addressed in another post to him, you can do the same thing with Steam.

Utilizing the backup utility you can create backups that, even if you've no internet connection, can be used to reinstall a game to your Steam profile.

So, in effect, it's the same as downloading and storing a game from GoG.

That implies you set up offline mode before the problem started. For example i did not set up offline mode because i am always only anyway and my internet last crashed over a year ago. However one day i came back from work and found myself unable to play steam game. You know why? because steam servers overloaded due to DDoSing (im sure you remmeber the news article about it) and steam told me it could not connect to the server and therefore could not start. When i tried to start the game it told me i need to login into Steam, however i was unable to do that because steam servers were not responding, thus preventing me from playing it. Granted, if i had entered offline mode before this i would ahve avoided it, but i do not predict future and do not know when it will decide to die. i was unable to set up offline mode in such condition and was forced to not play the game. So its not flawless.

Steam now gives you the option to start in offline mode should no internet connection be present.

The issue you were likely facing the day of the DDOS attacks; an issue a number of users were facing; was that your client was still attempting to contact the Steam servers, and still seeing them as online, but the servers were so inundated with call requests that they couldn't send the required info back to you.

The easy fix is to just disable or unplug your cat-5 cable/wireless adapter, start Steam, select to start in offline mode, and plug in/reenable the cable/adapter.

Valve did a complete overhaul of how the Steam client stores account credentials locally some months ago. Now, even if there is some catastrophic circumstance that leaves your computer unconnected, Steam can still boot into offline mode.

Provided, of course, you tell it to remember your password. However, the days of having to "start in online mode and then set it to offline mode" are over; and have been for nearly a year.

 

[Vigormortis]

My god the degree of share nonsense this is. No! No I will not go through the pain of of pointing out every bit of ridiculousness you've just written. I haven't had this much trouble getting through to someone since that time a guy messaged me on youtube who clearly didn't understand a word English.

And the "shear" level of irony in this paragraph is staggering.

Let me make this simple for you. Steam is broken,

Mmm...no it's not. :/

it's service is questionable

Define "questionable". That's a rather vague and nondescript assertion.

However, if you mean what I think you mean, than you're displaying a double standard again as Steams service is no more or less "questionable" than any other content distribution service or platform.

Unless you're asserting that all DD services are questionable. In which case, though I may not entirely agree, that would be a valid assertion.

and it's offline function is temperamental

No it's not "temperamental". Hasn't been for over a year.

By your logic (and I really hate to go all Godwin in here) because the Germans were once behind one of the worst atrocities ever committed against humanity, it therefore stands to reason that all Germans for the rest of time should be considered murderous, hateful, malcontents hellbent on world annihilation.

and it's backup function is the epitome of useless since it needs the net to restore.

No, you don't need to connect to the Steam servers to install a backup. That would defeat the purpose.

Some of your claims truly baffle me.

I can think of maybe ten digital distributors on the net where as Steam has thousands and thousands of games with no quality control or guarantee that they will work (simple maths here)which will take more time to sift through.

Huh?

You're comparing the number of other DD services you can think of to the number of games on Steam? How the hell does that make sense?

Apples to Oranges, my friend.

"Simple maths"? I'm not even sure that's really mathematics...

Also this http://news.softpedia.com/news/US-Bill-Makes-It-Legal-to-Bypass-DRM-If-There-s-No-Copyright-Infringement-Involved-352282.shtml

Uh...yeah, I know. I brought that up in my previous posts. I've even made a point of showing some posters the amendments to the DMCA law that list the circumstance in which one is allowed to circumvent DRM systems.

Even so, the methods of and reasons for which you've said you circumvent these DRM systems is not legal.

now please, go away and stop wasting my time.

So, no chance of you owning up to the fact that you were wrong?

Shame, that. And here I thought you and I could come to an understanding and actually get down to discussing the real issues with Steam and the problems facing consumer rights nowadays. Some of which you brought up and some of which I agree with you about.

Oh well. Good day to you.

 

[Strazdas]

Well, as I'd addressed in another post to him, you can do the same thing with Steam.

YOu can install steam games without having steam?
No, you cant [http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2517099]

Utilizing the backup utility you can create backups that, even if you've no internet connection, can be used to reinstall a game to your Steam profile.

So, in effect, it's the same as downloading and storing a game from GoG.

No its not. GoG does nto require you to run some DRM resource hog program to install games you bought.

Steam now gives you the option to start in offline mode should no internet connection be present.

internet connection was present. its steam servers that were offline. it gave me no option to start in offline mode.

The easy fix is to just disable or unplug your cat-5 cable/wireless adapter, start Steam, select to start in offline mode, and plug in/reenable the cable/adapter.

this is not always possible/desired, because steam is not the only thing running on my computer. nor it is "flawless offline mode" behaviuor.

You're comparing the number of other DD services you can think of to the number of games on Steam? How the hell does that make sense?[/quotes]
he is right about the fact that steam does pick old games and put it for sale even if it doesnt work properly or at all with no checking whatsoever, meanwhile other services like GOG actually modify the game launcher to work on more than 15 year old setups.

 

[Vigormortis]

YOu can install steam games without having steam?
No, you cant [http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2517099]

Uh, that's NOT what I said.

Seriously, what is it with everyone who's debating me putting words in my mouth or misinterpreting me?

I said you don't need to be ONLINE to install games on Steam. How does that equate to "you don't need Steam"?

No its not. GoG does nto require you to run some DRM resource hog program to install games you bought.

Resource hog? Maybe if you're using a computer from 1995.

Steam's system footprint is smaller than most media players. So I really don't get this "resource hog" complaint.

internet connection was present. its steam servers that were offline. it gave me no option to start in offline mode.

Again, misinterpreting my comment.

I said that THAT was the issue. You were still online. The Steam servers were still online. But, because of the DDOS attack the Steam servers couldn't handle all call requests.

If you'd disconnected you're internet connection, then booted Steam, you'd have gotten into Offline mode.

this is not always possible/desired, because steam is not the only thing running on my computer. nor it is "flawless offline mode" behaviuor.

So your computer will have an aneurysm if you disconnect the internet connection for one or two minutes?

Seems there's bigger issues with your machine than Steam...

And besides, the only reason you couldn't get into offline mode in that instance, as I'll explain for the third time, was because your client COULD see the Steam servers. It saw them as online. However, the Steam servers couldn't send a validation check due to the DDOS attack.

If your client hadn't detected the Steam servers it would have defaulted to Offline mode.

he is right about the fact that steam does pick old games and put it for sale even if it doesnt work properly or at all with no checking whatsoever, meanwhile other services like GOG actually modify the game launcher to work on more than 15 year old setups.

First point: most or all of those older games on GoG are owned in part or in whole by CD Projekt. They buy or lease the rights to the games in order to modify and update them. This is also part of the reason why there are so few games on GoG.

Second point: Steam has system requirements listed at the bottom of every store page. If people go around buying games without checking that part of the page, than it's their own responsibility to deal with it.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Look, I'm all for criticizing the failings of Steam, GoG, and other DD services. I'm all for debating the finer points of consumer rights and digital laws. In fact, I'd LOVE to have a good, solid discussion on these topics.

But please...PLEASE...can we leave the bullshit at the door? There's plenty of nonsense to discuss on the matter without bringing in hyperbole.

 

[Baron Teapot]

My Steam account has 426 games. I compulsively buy them during sales, which is a master stroke of marketing, because you have a time limit, and the game is often cheaper than the retail price.

Of course, you don't actually get the same copy as what people get in shops: it's altered to run alongside the Steam client and cannot work otherwise, meaning that without Valve's hardware to keep their service running properly, we might not be able to play multi-player games through the internet. Offline play is still possible, but it still feels a little creepy.

I have a bad feeling about selling your games second-hand, particularly as a digital game is literally no different when it's second-hand or first-hand. Most people are still going to have to rely on Steam's infrastructure, however, because they'll need to download the games after you sell them your CD-Key. You'd essentially be selling a few dozen ASCII characters, which feels wrong.

Auction sites like eBay would be cluttered with people offering access to popular games or full accounts with a custom catalogue of titles, and it would take a slice out of Valve's potential profits. If you're buying games from one another, you're not buying games from Valve, and they're letting us download terabytes of data from their servers for no reason.

I like Steam. But a single court in Germany throwing this out doesn't really mean all that much in my opinion: software has grown, and now it's a lot more than a page of machine code. If I were to encode an artist's portfolio into a software image archive and copy it endlessly, would that be considered the same, from a legal perspective, as me taking the hard-copies of their work?

If I wrote the program, would it belong to me, because the code was mine? Converting a priceless work of art to a JPEG is worthless. Then again, deleting a digital book is not the same as book-burning, because it's (almost always) a copy.

In short, the law and courts have had centuries to deal with physical property, but digital property is something that is still being hotly debated and discussed. Don't count out the consumers just yet -- I have a feeling that we'll eventually see Steam relax their policies on re-sale, if only to keep their nagging customers quiet. Then again, I could just be enormously naive. Heheh!

EDIT: A further few thoughts...

They'd probably just add something similar to Amazon's interface, which allows you to potentially buy new or pre-owned. Of course, with digital wares, that has no bearing upon the final product, yet buying a book on Amazon means it's pristine, but a private seller could give you a scuffed copy, or worse.

The advantages of re-selling old games appear to just be good for the customers: I don't have a problem with second-hand games. My problem is thus: "I deserve to buy games elsewhere and then install them through Steam, effectively using your bandwidth, servers and client without paying anything whatsoever."

So, before anyone claims that I'm evil, I just... don't like abusing services like that. Abusing may be too strong a word, but I'd still be cutting Steam out of it, and how these private sales of CD-keys could be properly regulated seems to be far too baffling for me right now!

 

[Strazdas]

Uh, that's NOT what I said.

Seriously, what is it with everyone who's debating me putting words in my mouth or misinterpreting me?

I said you don't need to be ONLINE to install games on Steam. How does that equate to "you don't need Steam"?

You said that thep erson applies double standart because installing games you bought on steam and installing games you bought on GOG is the same thing. this was wrong.

Resource hog? Maybe if you're using a computer from 1995.

Steam's system footprint is smaller than most media players. So I really don't get this "resource hog" complaint.

When my computer starts it starts 7 programs that run in the background constantly. All programs except steam starts within 20 seconds. steam however takes couple minutes to even start properly. After that it sits there in a memory and then attacks every game i try to launch.
I use a computer from 2008.
Media players have large footprint when playing media, because they need to decode said media.
The resource hog of steam however may be akin to some vorus running inthe background on modern computers, that isnt really that much of a problem as the fact that i got to run that client to begin with.

So your computer will have an aneurysm if you disconnect the internet connection for one or two minutes?

No, but my clients might.

And besides, the only reason you couldn't get into offline mode in that instance, as I'll explain for the third time, was because your client COULD see the Steam servers. It saw them as online. However, the Steam servers couldn't send a validation check due to the DDOS attack.

I understand that. How is that my problem that steams DRM is broken?
Why does it not default to offline mode if it fails to connect even if the servers are visible?

First point: most or all of those older games on GoG are owned in part or in whole by CD Projekt. They buy or lease the rights to the games in order to modify and update them. This is also part of the reason why there are so few games on GoG.

As we saw from recent Fallout takedown - this isnt always true. Yet GOG always make sure the games run.

Second point: Steam has system requirements listed at the bottom of every store page. If people go around buying games without checking that part of the page, than it's their own responsibility to deal with it.

It has system requirements. My system is above those requirements. the game still doesnt work. System requirements say directx 4 or higher. i have 9. Turns out, in reality it is direct 4 though 8 that works only. Cannot get those anymore. When the requirements were written, they werent aware how much is going to change in the future, however steam didnt bother to check.

 

[Baron Teapot]

It has system requirements. My system is above those requirements. the game still doesnt work. System requirements say directx 4 or higher. i have 9. Turns out, in reality it is direct 4 though 8 that works only. Cannot get those anymore. When the requirements were written, they werent aware how much is going to change in the future, however steam didnt bother to check.

Yes, Steam ought to only sell games that have been meticulously tested and found to run on a wide range of hardware. Unfortunately, part of the beauty of PC gaming is the fact that individual machines vary wildly and arbitrarily between users, and across the vast number of operating systems, craphics cards and processors, there are bound to be problems.

Fixing these in a timely manner is what they need to do. They, afterall, didn't write these games or choose for them to only play on certain hardware configurations, so I wouldn't be too angry. They need to know there's a problem before they can try to fix it, afterall, and withdrawing the game from sale to other people who may not have difficulty playing it seems unfair.

They should just put up a notice and offer refunds if it doesn't work for you.

 

[Vigormortis]

snip

Sigh...

I'm not sure how many times I'll have to reiterate a point before you actually get what I'm saying or don't misinterpret what I've meant. However many times it is, it's more than I'm willing to do.

There comes a point where it becomes obvious ones words are falling on deaf ears. And, that the other party will find anything you say, twist it's meaning, and use it to argue with you.

This is one of those cases. I really don't want to constantly repeat myself, endlessly explain myself, until you actually get what I'm saying.

So I'm done. I've absolutely no interest in a debate that is predicated on points having to be repeated ad nauseum.

Good day to you.

 

[Strazdas]

It has system requirements. My system is above those requirements. the game still doesnt work. System requirements say directx 4 or higher. i have 9. Turns out, in reality it is direct 4 though 8 that works only. Cannot get those anymore. When the requirements were written, they werent aware how much is going to change in the future, however steam didnt bother to check.

Yes, Steam ought to only sell games that have been meticulously tested and found to run on a wide range of hardware. Unfortunately, part of the beauty of PC gaming is the fact that individual machines vary wildly and arbitrarily between users, and across the vast number of operating systems, craphics cards and processors, there are bound to be problems.

Fixing these in a timely manner is what they need to do. They, afterall, didn't write these games or choose for them to only play on certain hardware configurations, so I wouldn't be too angry. They need to know there's a problem before they can try to fix it, afterall, and withdrawing the game from sale to other people who may not have difficulty playing it seems unfair.

They should just put up a notice and offer refunds if it doesn't work for you.

I agree that you cannot make it work flawlessly on ALL platforms, however you should at least cover the basics. Such as the game actually launching on anything newer than XP. I can udnerstand the game not working for people who use nontraditional hardware. but when the game doesnt work for anyone except few people that use untraditional hardware, then you have a problem.
Fixing games in order to run on at least the default configuration of hardware/software should be something that is done before the games release though. They could, you know, at least try to turn the game on on their work computer and see if it even starts.
I heard they do agree with refunds thought i have never went though the procedure myself.