Vanquish Producer Attacks the Idea of East/West Developer Divide

JediMB

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As much as I tend to like Japanese things, I have to say that there is a general difference between Euro-American and Asian (read: Japanese) developers. One that is not flattering for the latter.

Different cultures in general, but more importantly different game development cultures. There are exceptions, of course, but you can see an inability to develop graphically high-end games for this generation that don't end up with the gameplay and/or game design suffering considerably. I just haven't seen this nearly as much in western developers.

And I am, of course, referring specifically to developers that were already considered to be good. Ones who have frequently crafted top-notch experiences in past generations.

That's about what I have to say. Not naming any specific developers, to avoid "fanboy" outbursts. Just my thoughts.
 

nipsen

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"Inaba, who served as producer for Vanquish, said that it wasn't particularly useful to separate developers into East and West."

..particularly since half of the modeling and art-assets are "outsourced" anyway. But yes, great point. There are good developers, and there are bad developers.

But there's something to be said for small Japanese developers having an upper hand on eschewed small western developers. Tales Of games, a couple of other titles that never even make it to the west.. Demon's Souls almost didn't.. The games that Japanese publishers think are trash - that's where Japan has the upper hand, imo. If we get games that are somewhat off the chart - but still succeed in the "west", then it's either ThatGameCompany, Q-Games.. maybe SuckerPunch - or else it's on indie sale and individual stunt-marketing. There's not much to choose from right now of relatively high quality looking games in that category.

But yes. Good games, and bad games. Mass-produced games would fit in the second category very often, imo.. And I mean, /that's/ what ruining the business. Bad games. That are insisted on are dicktitsingly awesome by "everyone" in some marketing blitz somewhere.
 

captaincabbage

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CardinalPiggles said:
of course it is.

we already knew that im sure
Yeah, it's pretty obvious by the types of games that Japan is churning out that they're kinda like "Stuck-in-their-ways" old people. I honestly cannot think of a game from Japan recently that has really challenged the norms.

Also, nice avatar :B
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Raiyan 1.0 said:
Baresark said:
Japanese developers cater to a different crowd than western developers. It's not racism, they simply develop for the Japanese crowds. They still have arcades in Japan, so a lot of games are developed with that in mind. I figure we are lucky to have even got Super Street Fighter 4, and the arcades in Japan have more characters. Translating a game is time consuming and expensive, which plays another part in it. The fact is, many Western games don't do well in Japan. They seem to want nothing to do with a Microsoft product.

When all is said and done, they develop games with their target audience in mind, just like in America.

Therumancer said:
To give some specific examples (and this goes back a while) when "Final Fantasy X-2" was coming out in the US we learned that there was going to be a third part in the story called "Final Fantasy X- Final Mission" which was going to finish the story and answer the remaining questions about that world and storyline, but was going to NOT be released to the US. At the same time, we also had the release of "Final Fantasy X- International" with additional content and difficulty levels, which was international *except* to the US, and like with "Final Mission" it was an intentional snub for the benefit of the Japanese fans, especially seeing as the series at the time was facing a lot of accusations of selling out. This move made almost no financial sense, yet it's still what they did, as the companies involved had enough money apparently, and simply felt some things were more important.

You'll also notice that if you take a look at the release schedules, that there are a lot of games, some quite high profile, that remain Japan-only despite the serious potential for international sales. The "Wizardry" series (based on the American RPG series) and "Super Robot Wars" tactical RPG series are two in paticular that would see a fairly successful release, but all excuses aside, seem to be being kept Japan-only intentionally. The comments occasionally made about liscencing and the like usually come close to being nonsensical when you stop think think about it.
I do believe that the reason we didn't see the release of extended FFX games is because the game was honestly not very well received. I know I didn't care for it, and X-2 was made with female audiences in mind. My girlfriend at the time LOVED it, but I didn't care for it either.

Just because a game is promising doesn't mean that they can just make it able to run on American systems and call it a day. It's more like, with a few exceptions, there is extensive amounts of work to be done to prepare a game for a foreign market. There is dubbing issues, in game voice acting if there is any, lip syncing, fixing social nuances so references in game make sense to american audiences, etc. On top of all that, by the time a game releases in America, they usually do add more content, even if it's just a few extra scenes, perhaps a movie that wasn't in the Japanese edition. I know that the releases of FFX saw some big improvements between the two releases.

For publishers that do not have international offices, they must also find an American company to back the game. That costs the American company money and they take a chance bringing a game that may not do well, even if the anticipation is high. I feel as though I should point out how companies like Activision and EA treat game properties, this is a big obstacle for games. Then their is the American development company that handles the translations. There were a few JRPG's I was looking forward too that were completely destroyed by the translations and horrendous voice work. It's situations like this that will destroy a games chances internationally.

I can't agree or disagree with what you say about their "racist" tendencies, but I have never gotten that out of interviews I have watched or things I have read.

Just a contrary opinion to your own, I mean peace. :)

Also, so many games don't make sense outside of Japan. Last time I checked there isn't a market for dating sims outside of Japan. In America people are offended by the concept of same sex relationship options in a game, let alone a whole game based around meeting and dating other people. Fighting games have taken a real crap here in America too. I love fighting games, but so many people only want more Call of Duty, it's honestly annoying. I feel lucky to have gotten a release of Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, which was a fantastic game.
I'm tired of Therumancer's racism as well.
I think you're confusing racism with a justified but confronting fact: there is a long standing attitude in Japan of them being superior beings. It will probably take another couple of generations to fully go away and after that, we might see better cross pollination of game genres, art styles, mechanics and story direction and a lot less trans-continental dick waving from both sides.
 

Gralian

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We all know Inafune is a troll. But he's the "Oh, you" pat-on-the-head kind of troll. We all get chuckles when he starts doomsaying about the Japanese game industry.

I don't think there's a divide between the west making "better" games than Japan, but i do think there is a definite cultural divide, and when for example Japanese developers try to appeal to western audiences, the attempt can come off a bit crass and hacknied. It becomes cringe-worthy, and not the tongue-in-cheek kind of way. The cultural difference will always be there, but i suppose it's all about the way in which developers handle and portray their own cultural influences and heritage to other nations, markets and cultures.

Incidentally, i love Platinum. Vanquish was awesome. Need more Shinji Mikami.
 

RA92

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Gordon_4 said:
I think you're confusing racism with a justified but confronting fact: there is a long standing attitude in Japan of them being superior beings. It will probably take another couple of generations to fully go away and after that, we might see better cross pollination of game genres, art styles, mechanics and story direction and a lot less trans-continental dick waving from both sides.
Uh huh. And there isn't one in the West either? America spreading 'democracy' to the savage nations? Europeans' condescending attitude towards the Americans?

The fact is, you didn't refute any of my arguments. If the Japanese believe (in this current economic crisis) that Westerners aren't 'fit' for their games, why are so many Japanese games being ported to the XBox? Why did Capcom hire out Western devs specifically to cater to the Western demography? Why would they bother localizing niche titles when far more copies are sold in Japan than in the entire North America and Europe? When Bioware localized Mass Effect 2 for Japan a year after the title's launch, did it make them racist?

Also, just so you know, last time I had a conversation with Therumancer, he proposed that wiping out a portion of the Chinese population would be doing a favor to the Chinese government. He also calls America a 'progressive nation': around the same time when the Republicans are passing pro-life legislations for which women are no longer getting access to free check ups for breast cancer or abort a child birth.
 

Darkauthor81

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Fearzone said:
Japan's got it's own thing going on, and thank goodness for that. Maybe your average Japanese RPG won't have as many particle effects and won't be pushing as many polygons, but it won't take 10 hours to finish either. And dollars to donuts the story will be better.
Wait wait wait just a moment. Did you just say the stories are better?? Are we talking about the same JRPGs that have massive hair dos, puked on by a punk rocker clown clothing styles, over the top melodrama, and useless whiny female secondary characters that are required by law the get kidnapped at least twice?
 

Darkauthor81

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ZippyDSMlee said:
Meh and both are shrinking content because 3D takes to much time to develop. >>
I agree. The mentality that everything has to have mind blowing 3d graphics has been a set back for games for quite a while. Ever wonder why there's no innovation?

1: 3d graphics are so expensive that there's considerably less money going into developing story and game play elements

2: Even with story and game play divisions neutered they're still massively expensive to produce. So companies can't try anything new or innovative. They have to bank on what's already popular because they need to recoup the fortune they spent on said 3d graphics.

There are many games that would have been just as good, probably even better, in 2d. Take the Shinmegami Tensei games. The originals for the SNES had tons of monsters in it because all they had to do was a drawing of each one and set up its stats, abilities, etc. The 3d games have far fewer monsters because it takes so much more to make a 3d models of said monsters. And to insure they recoup their money they spent on what few monsters they have, they have consistently dumbed down the conversations you can have with monsters to make it appeal to a broader audience.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Darkauthor81 said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Meh and both are shrinking content because 3D takes to much time to develop. >>
I agree. The mentality that everything has to have mind blowing 3d graphics has been a set back for games for quite a while. Ever wonder why there's no innovation?

1: 3d graphics are so expensive that there's considerably less money going into developing story and game play elements

2: Even with story and game play divisions neutered they're still massively expensive to produce. So companies can't try anything new or innovative. They have to bank on what's already popular because they need to recoup the fortune they spent on said 3d graphics.

There are many games that would have been just as good, probably even better, in 2d. Take the Shinmegami Tensei games. The originals for the SNES had tons of monsters in it because all they had to do was a drawing of each one and set up its stats, abilities, etc. The 3d games have far fewer monsters because it takes so much more to make a 3d models of said monsters. And to insure they recoup their money they spent on what few monsters they have, they have consistently dumbed down the conversations you can have with monsters to make it appeal to a broader audience.
I dunno I like 3D more but it dose not have to be mind blowing, for me graphics can really be less is more is good enough...much rather have that than diminished mechanics which makes the game suck no matter how pretty it is...
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Raiyan 1.0 said:
Gordon_4 said:
I think you're confusing racism with a justified but confronting fact: there is a long standing attitude in Japan of them being superior beings. It will probably take another couple of generations to fully go away and after that, we might see better cross pollination of game genres, art styles, mechanics and story direction and a lot less trans-continental dick waving from both sides.
Uh huh. And there isn't one in the West either? America spreading 'democracy' to the savage nations? Europeans' condescending attitude towards the Americans?

The fact is, you didn't refute any of my arguments. If the Japanese believe (in this current economic crisis) that Westerners aren't 'fit' for their games, why are so many Japanese games being ported to the XBox? Why did Capcom hire out Western devs specifically to cater to the Western demography? Why would they bother localizing niche titles when far more copies are sold in Japan than in the entire North America and Europe? When Bioware localized Mass Effect 2 for Japan a year after the title's launch, did it make them racist?

Also, just so you know, last time I had a conversation with Therumancer, he proposed that wiping out a portion of the Chinese population would be doing a favor to the Chinese government. He also calls America a 'progressive nation': around the same time when the Republicans are passing pro-life legislations for which women are no longer getting access to free check ups for breast cancer or abort a child birth.
Look mate, both sides of the divide, for all sorts of reasons, wave their cocks around with the firm belief that they have the biggest wedding tackle. It's a really embarrassing spectacle as far as I'm concerned. Like my (Aus) international sporting teams are among the BIGGEST wankers on the international stage: arrogant tossers in victory and whinging buggers in defeat.

I personally would love to see a couple of high quality devs from both side of the pond get in a room together and bash out a game.

For what its worth, I don't think the measures you mention the US Republican Party taking are good. Denying a medical service simply drives it underground and that leads to consequences that don't warrant consideration, but that's the pitfalls of a representative democracy.
 

Atmos Duality

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The only Japanese gaming company whose star was regularly on the rise for the last 3 years has been Nintendo.
Everyone else though?
Konami, Capcom, Namco, Squeenix....all of them are posting significant losses or reduced profits (which is a marginal decline, even if their company is still in the black).
The only thing left to argue is whether this is the result of a shrinking niche' market in the West(ala recession) or if it's the result of poor games regularly coming out of Japan.

At this point, I personally do not particularly care for most new Japanese titles. However , it's not on account of quality (though Square-Enix would definitely be the exception here; all of their recent games that I've played barely touch mediocrity, and largely do worse than that), but on account of personal interest in other subjects.
 

RA92

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Gordon_4 said:
Look mate, both sides of the divide, for all sorts of reasons, wave their cocks around with the firm belief that they have the biggest wedding tackle. It's a really embarrassing spectacle as far as I'm concerned. Like my (Aus) international sporting teams are among the BIGGEST wankers on the international stage: arrogant tossers in victory and whinging buggers in defeat.

I personally would love to see a couple of high quality devs from both side of the pond get in a room together and bash out a game.

For what its worth, I don't think the measures you mention the US Republican Party taking are good. Denying a medical service simply drives it underground and that leads to consequences that don't warrant consideration, but that's the pitfalls of a representative democracy.
Sorry if I came off as antagonistic. It's simply that broad generalizations tend to piss me off. Hell, look at Sony: they just <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/107926-Sony-Says-Profits-More-Important-than-Beating-Microsoft>said that profit was more important to them than staying ahead of Microsoft. I simply see no attempt on their part to ascertain some form of 'superiority'; just another corporation trying to wade through difficult times. The century old Japanese monarchy values simply do not translate into the multi-national corporations that Sony, Capcom and Square Enix is.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Raiyan 1.0 said:
Gordon_4 said:
Look mate, both sides of the divide, for all sorts of reasons, wave their cocks around with the firm belief that they have the biggest wedding tackle. It's a really embarrassing spectacle as far as I'm concerned. Like my (Aus) international sporting teams are among the BIGGEST wankers on the international stage: arrogant tossers in victory and whinging buggers in defeat.

I personally would love to see a couple of high quality devs from both side of the pond get in a room together and bash out a game.

For what its worth, I don't think the measures you mention the US Republican Party taking are good. Denying a medical service simply drives it underground and that leads to consequences that don't warrant consideration, but that's the pitfalls of a representative democracy.
Sorry if I came off as antagonistic. It's simply that broad generalizations tend to piss me off. Hell, look at Sony: they just <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/107926-Sony-Says-Profits-More-Important-than-Beating-Microsoft>said that profit was more important to them than staying ahead of Microsoft. I simply see no attempt on their part to ascertain some form of 'superiority'; just another corporation trying to wade through difficult times. The century old Japanese monarchy values simply do not translate into the multi-national corporations that Sony, Capcom and Square Enix is.
Mate I never confuse making a passionate argument with mere antagonism. You made a point, backed it up, and fought for it. Really good to see on something that arguably doesn't shift the world.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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A lot of western games sell like crap in Japan (I read something about dragon age origins being released ages later and selling something like 20.000 copies...) so it's not surprising that a lot of Japanese games don't work for the western pallet. They're just different audiences.


I myself am of the Japanese game audience and though I do like some western games too I mostly don't care for shooting, driving or sports games which are by far the biggest sellers over here.
 

Noctis_XZ

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It's very evident that there is a cultural difference between Western/Eastern games.. is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so.

I've seen speak of racism in this thread a few times and if that's the kind of card that is going to be played I'm going to go on ahead and say, in my OPINION, that is the Western audience that is racist.. there is a stigma here in the West that most certainly exists when it comes to Eastern games. I've touched on it before in other threads and there was a recent post that perfectly exemplifies the kind of thing I'm talk about.

Yes, I won't deny that there are most certainly Eastern people who believe their people and their products are superior to those of the West.. but the EXACT same thing can be said for the West. Granted I don't read a lot of articles that come out of the East but I am most certainly aware that translations do tend to become misconstrued.. and the idea of certain high profile titles that are released in Japan not seeing a Western release has anything to do with superiority or racism is absurd..

Honestly sometimes I wonder what the criticism coming from the American audience over Japanese games has to do with it.. if it's really about flawed games or just conformity.

I'll say it here for everyone.. I LOVE turn based RPGs! Mechanically I see nothing wrong with them and as of yet I haven't heard anyone name a specific reason why they need to be done away with when that argument is brought up.

It's sad to say it but in my opinion a majority of gamers here in American who bash JRPGs specifically are simply impatient, unintelligent, and not comfortable with who they are.. playing a video game with a main character who is effeminate to you does NOT make you gay, it's okay.. we all know you're straight
 

jamesworkshop

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I wish people would understand the jap market is based on a hell of a lot more than companies you know the name of, entities like sony and nintendo are expressly international corperations and are not really eastern in the context of the discussion

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/14224-capcom-japanese-gaming-market-in-danger-of-fading/

the discussion is the strenght of the market not the quality of specific titles
 

-|-

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Raiyan 1.0 said:
I'm tired of Therumancer's racism as well. If the Japanese were so racist...
Have you been to Japan? Or Asia in general? Have you seen those black vans driving around Kyoto?

Therumancer's post was spot on with regards Japanese peoples attitudes to gaijin. As a nation they are openly xenophobic.
 

Noctis_XZ

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-|- said:
Raiyan 1.0 said:
I'm tired of Therumancer's racism as well. If the Japanese were so racist...
Have you been to Japan? Or Asia in general? Have you seen those black vans driving around Kyoto?

Therumancer's post was spot on with regards Japanese peoples attitudes to gaijin. As a nation they are openly xenophobic.
Really? Your comment kind of disgusts me honestly.. I don't tend to make assumptions but I'm going to go on ahead and say you've never been to every part of Asia.. the existence of a group of people with a certain set of beliefs DOES NOT reflect the WHOLE nation.. if it does, we here in the states are Xenophobic as well.