Vegetarianism

[ThrobbingEgo]

2) Sorry, vegetarian website. I won't trust it... It's bound to have only informations that prove the domination of vegs.

Gee, you think that people who are vegetarians might have legitimate reasons for being vegetarians? If you don't want to check out a site that gives vegans nutritional advice, then I'm not surprised that you don't understand how vegans get the nutrients they need. That's what that site's there for. Nutritional advice.

Therefore they'd explain how vegans can get vitamin B12, answering your question without propaganda.

 

[Lexodus]

If the majority were vegetarians or carnivores, you would.

Yes, but they're not.

So you assign a 'point against' people just because they 'single themselves out from the majority'?

No. This whole semantics argument was because (EDIT YOU said that everybody who said that we were designed to eat meat as well as vegetables was playing the Appeal to Nature fallacy, and I was countering that argument.

 

[Abedeus]

2) Sorry, vegetarian website. I won't trust it... It's bound to have only informations that prove the domination of vegs.

Gee, you think that people who are vegetarians might have legitimate reasons for being vegetarians? If you don't want to check out a site that gives vegans nutritional advice, then I'm not surprised that you don't understand how vegans get the nutrients they need. That's what that site's there for. Nutritional advice.

The whole site is promoting going veg. "No consequences, just eat this, this, this, even if you think it tastes like grass, you MUST eat it, because it's the only plant that has XXX and you can't eat YYY because it's meat".

I think I know why I have a migrene now. I really feel like I've been banging my head all this time. Against a concrete wall.

 

[Totaltruth]

I always wonder why people get so impassioned about eating meat...Probably all that 'you need meat to survive' propaganda out their.

Years of studying food and nutrition, plus research on the subject matter published in magazines, scientific journals, and, once, scrawled in shit on the wall of a public bathroom cubicle.

I'm sorry to say it but you are horribly misinformed. Full grown adults require eight amino acids in their diets. You can in fact get all your essential amino acids simply from corn and beans(Beans are only deficient in Methionine).

Your longer posts sources simply state unplanned vegan diets lack protein, which in itself isn't very profound. As with any unplanned or non-acted upon diet, malnutrition will occur.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

2) Sorry, vegetarian website. I won't trust it... It's bound to have only informations that prove the domination of vegs.

Gee, you think that people who are vegetarians might have legitimate reasons for being vegetarians? If you don't want to check out a site that gives vegans nutritional advice, then I'm not surprised that you don't understand how vegans get the nutrients they need. That's what that site's there for. Nutritional advice.

The whole site is promoting going veg. "No consequences, just eat this, this, this, even if you think it tastes like grass, you MUST eat it, because it's the only plant that has XXX and you can't eat YYY because it's meat".

I think I know why I have a migrene now. I really feel like I've been banging my head all this time. Against a concrete wall.

That's not what the site says at all. Here, I'll take an excerpt from the bottom for you.

Reliable Vegan Sources of Vitamin B12

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetarian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer?s yeast or torula yeast. those sensitive to other yeasts can often use it.

The RDA for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily (1). About 2 rounded teaspoons of large flake Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast provides the recommended amount of vitamin B12 for adults (2). A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.

Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. For example, Nature?s Path Optimum Power cereal does contain vitamin B12 at this time and about a half cup of this cereal will provide 2.4 micrograms of vitamin B12 (3). We recommend checking the label of your favorite cereal since manufacturers have been known to stop including vitamin B12.

Other sources of vitamin B12 are vitamin B12 fortified soy milk, vitamin B12 fortified meat analogues (food made from wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry, or fish), and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements that do not contain animal products.

Vegans who choose to use a vitamin B12 supplement, either as a single supplement or in a multivitamin should use supplements regularly. Even though a supplement may contain many times the recommended level of vitamin B12, when vitamin B12 intake is high, not as much appears to be absorbed. This means in order to meet your needs, you should take a daily vitamin B12 supplement of 5-10 micrograms or a weekly vitamin B12 supplement of 2000 micrograms (4).

We store between 2 and 5 micrograms of vitamin B12 and only excrete a very small fraction of this each day. Nevertheless, over time, vitamin B12 deficiency can develop if stores are not replenished with vitamin B12 from the diet or from supplements. Although bacteria in the large intestine of humans do produce vitamin B12, this vitamin B12 does not appear to be absorbed (5) and is not adequate to prevent a vitamin B12 deficiency (6). Although some vegans may get vitamin B12 from inadequate hand washing, this is not a reliable vitamin B12 source.

Tempeh, miso, sea vegetables, and other plant foods are sometimes reported to contain vitamin B12. These products, however, are not reliable sources of the vitamin. The standard method for measuring vitamin B12 in foods measures both active and inactive forms of vitamin B12. The inactive form (also called analogues) actually interferes with normal vitamin B12 absorption and metabolism (7). When only active vitamin B12 is measured, plant foods including fermented soyfoods and sea vegetables do not contain significant amounts of active vitamin B12 (8).

Very small amounts of vitamin B12 have been found in plants grown in soil treated with manure (9). It is not clear whether this vitamin B12 is the active form or the inactive analogue. In any case, the amounts are so small that more than 23 cups of organically grown spinach would have to be eaten every day in order to meet the adult RDA for vitamin B12 (9,10).

Nothing about not needing anything. Just how to get it. Just facts and sources. No propaganda.

No need to hit your head on a brick wall.

 

[Lexodus]

If the majority were vegetarians or carnivores, you would.

Yes, but they're not.

So you assign a 'point against' people just because they 'single themselves out from the majority'?

No. This whole semantics argument was because (EDIT YOU said that everybody who said that we were designed to eat meat as well as vegetables was playing the Appeal to Nature fallacy, and I was countering that argument.

But you're not countering that fallacy: you're not showing how to get an ought from an is, that because we're designed by biology to do something (which isn't true exactly--evolution doesn't 'design' a whole lot as much as throw random mutations of previous biological organisms at the wall called natural selection and sees what sticks) we're under a *moral* obligation to behave that way, or more accurately, that as long as we act in accordance with our biology we're acting morally.

Incorrect. I'm saying that, because we can, we should be able to. And, because Vegetarians have to go to extra measures to achieve the same effects as those of us who DON'T prevent ourselves from eating something means that we are following the 'path of less resistance' if you will; this has been accepted as the norm, and thus anyone who differs from the norm is, obviously, differing from the norm.

That's not relevant to what you said

Wait one fucking second... yes it is! I said that nobody runs around claiming to be a 'flesharian' or the like, which, if we follow the word-pattern

Your original post said your problem "is that they have a particular word for it" not that they have a different word pattern.

okay, that was retarded. Yes, I said that, and I reiterated it. The only mention of word-patterns is when I define what a hypothetical 'flesharian'
would be, so don't try and baffle the fuck out of me with your faulty reading skills.

I said that nobody runs around claiming to be a 'flesharian' or the like, which, if we follow the word-pattern used to describe those that only eat vegetables or those that only eat fruit, would mean that we don't eat any vegetables or fruit at all. This would ALSO be different to the norm (eating FRUIT AND VEGETABLES AND MEAT, to clarify and to prevent you from attempting to out-dumb my argument), and people would complain, as they wouldn't be getting the nutrients found in plants either. Sure, some people joke about being almost 100% carniverous, but nobody truly only eats meat. Even cannibals eat veggies and fruit sometimes

Just because it might be unhealthy to only eat meat and not veggies and fruits, that doesn't mean you can conclude without more evidence that the opposite--to only eat veggies and fruits and not meat--is also true.

But it has been proven.

 

[Totaltruth]

Yeah, I feel pretty comfortable rejecting the "Collage of Psychic Studies." Do they have any experts on phrenology?

Considering they're offering "healings" on their website... just wow.

This crap isn't accepted in mainstream psychology.

*yawn* fine a'll put effort into it.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=wIhGSrCaEYa7jAeS6ohj&ct=result&q=real+psychic+studies&btnG=Search+Books

Theres a whole WEALTH of psychic studies there for you to realise you are completely screwed in this particular debate. Dating back over a century.

Game, Set, match.

I'm struggling to grasp whether you are a troll or not. If you could please provide a recognised Biology journal's abstract on Psychics I'd be interested.

Considering that the people who have numbed pain responses still have brain activity, yeah, it'd still be murder. Now, if you were to stab someone who was brain dead, they're already considered legally dead. There can be a difference between suffering and physical pain: you don't need to feel physical pain to suffer, but a brain is a prerequisite.

Find me a carrot with brain activity, then we'll talk.

Havn't studied biology have you?

All plants have brains, just because it's not complex as a human brain doesn't mean they don't have them. Without it they wouldn't be able to turn their leaves towards the sun to maximise their photosynthesis or produce the chemicals necessary for photosynthesis to occur, or know when to produce more of them.

Beyond that, you've claimed that plants also have as complex nervous systems as sentient beings which is a very outlandish remark based on no provided fact. It is especially difficult taking this stance considering you are not supporting vegetarianism. If you believe that psychic communication is possible between sentient and non-sentient beings, doesn't this conflict with your fundamental moral ideologies? Furthermore, you're effectively putting human life equal to animals, therefore wouldn't it be logical to be a practising vegan?

 

[Lexodus]

I always wonder why people get so impassioned about eating meat...Probably all that 'you need meat to survive' propaganda out their.

Years of studying food and nutrition, plus research on the subject matter published in magazines, scientific journals, and, once, scrawled in shit on the wall of a public bathroom cubicle.

I'm sorry to say it but you are horribly misinformed. Full grown adults require eight amino acids in their diets.

Source?

You can in fact get all your essential amino acids simply from corn and beans(Beans are only deficient in Methionine).

Source?

Your longer posts sources simply state unplanned vegan diets lack protein, which in itself isn't very profound. As with any unplanned or non-acted upon diet, malnutrition will occur.[/quote]
Why would trying to be profound be the object of my argument? In those posts, the highlighted point is that it is easier to be unhealthy from a badly planned vegetarian meal than from a badly planned normal one, as a deficiency is easily worse than an overabundance in most cases (deficiency in this case can lead to horrible diseases, and overabundance generally just leaves you really, really fat, which can be fought).

 

[Lexodus]

Incorrect. I'm saying that, because we can, we should be able to.

I can beat people up and take their money, that doesn't mean I should become a mugger instead of getting a job if it's the path of less resistance.

Okay, firstly, that is retarded as I was only using the current situation, so you have removed contextual information, and thus misquoted me, but secondly, yes you should be ABLE to. You probably shouldn't DO, in this situation, but you should be ABLE to DO.

I think you didn't understand exactly what I'm talking about when I said 'appeal to nature' and how your arguments run afoul of it.[/quote]
I knew, I understood, and you denied something because you wanted to believe the opposite.

okay, that was retarded. Yes, I said that, and I reiterated it. The only mention of word-patterns is when I define what a hypothetical 'flesharian'
would be, so don't try and baffle the fuck out of me with your faulty reading skills.

Um, just don't set up a basis for judging people--"particular word"-- unless you actually mean it.

or what? You're going to cry? It's just a word, and I'm going to use it if I like, goddamngaysexhailsatanwomenshouldhavenorightsheilHitlerbabyrapeit (just trying to throw in some more objectionable words there so you're completely offended, and those seem to be the popular ones).

Just because it might be unhealthy to only eat meat and not veggies and fruits, that doesn't mean you can conclude without more evidence that the opposite--to only eat veggies and fruits and not meat--is also true.

But it has been proven.

Then you should use that proof, not make an argument about how the opposite extreme is unhealthy.[/quote]
Many people have, during the course of this thread, yet you refuse to listen, and thus they have stopped trying and basically the only people here now are arguing about their own argument (read: US.)

 

[Totaltruth]

Source?
Why would trying to be profound be the object of my argument? In those posts, the highlighted point is that it is easier to be unhealthy from a badly planned vegetarian meal than from a badly planned normal one, as a deficiency is easily worse than an overabundance in most cases (deficiency in this case can lead to horrible diseases, and overabundance generally just leaves you really, really fat, which can be fought).

Sorry, I thought you said earlier you had studied nutrition, my mistake. Having only majored in Biology I thought complex knowledge of essential proteins would be a vital part to being a nutritionist.
Writing "not exactly profound" was a remark at the in-your-face obivousness of those articles ie. they provided no worthwhile insight into the issue.
Personally, vegans I know, due to them being required to be more vigilant with their nutrition are in fact more healthy than a lot of my other peers.

Edit: Regarding sources, go find any standard University, even high school Biology text book which will provide you with the basics.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Source?
Why would trying to be profound be the object of my argument? In those posts, the highlighted point is that it is easier to be unhealthy from a badly planned vegetarian meal than from a badly planned normal one, as a deficiency is easily worse than an overabundance in most cases (deficiency in this case can lead to horrible diseases, and overabundance generally just leaves you really, really fat, which can be fought).

Sorry, I thought you said earlier you had studied nutrition, my mistake. Having only majored in Biology I thought complex knowledge of essential proteins would be a vital part to being a nutritionist.
Writing "not exactly profound" was a remark at the in-your-face obivousness of those articles ie. they provided no worthwhile insight into the issue.
Personally, vegans I know, due to them being required to be more vigilant with their nutrition are in fact more healthy than a lot of my other peers.

Just for fairness, maybe you should provide a link that explains the information you posted. I believe I gave the tree whisperer the same line when he said he studied biology, with no additional evidence given. Saying you study biology isn't the same as evidence.

http://www.essortment.com/lifestyle/dietarysuppleme_soha.htm
http://www.csmngt.com/amino_acids.htm

Here's a little bit I quickly dug up from the internet, it seems to support your claim (I thought it would). It just would be handy to include it in your post. Saves you time when people ask for sources.

 

[Totaltruth]

I have recently started practicing vegetarianism. I still eat fish but will not eat any other type of meat due to them being raised to die. I would like to know if anyone has any advice for me or any warnings that my lifestyle of not eating much meat could have on me.

I commend you for breaking the norm in what is a often highly criticised practise(partially blame poor public campaings like those from PETA, though often just from "eat meat" propaganda).
Though if you're going to be a vegetarian on a personal moral basis still eating meat, I personally think you should continue thinking about the issue. Not to mention eating fish will unfortunately be the first thing people will criticise you for. I would recommend learning some basic nutritional information on what you will be lacking and some good vegan/vegetarian cook books.

 

[Chartic]

I have recently started practicing vegetarianism. I still eat fish but will not eat any other type of meat due to them being raised to die. I would like to know if anyone has any advice for me or any warnings that my lifestyle of not eating much meat could have on me.

I commend you for breaking the norm in what is a often highly criticised practise(partially blame poor public campaings like those from PETA, though often just from "eat meat" propaganda).
Though if you're going to be a vegetarian on a personal moral basis still eating meat, I personally think you should continue thinking about the issue. Not to mention eating fish will unfortunately be the first thing people will criticise you for. I would recommend learning some basic nutritional information on what you will be lacking and some good vegan/vegetarian cook books.

I've been called out so much because of that you wouldn't believe.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

I have recently started practicing vegetarianism. I still eat fish but will not eat any other type of meat due to them being raised to die. I would like to know if anyone has any advice for me or any warnings that my lifestyle of not eating much meat could have on me.

I commend you for breaking the norm in what is a often highly criticised practise(partially blame poor public campaings like those from PETA, though often just from "eat meat" propaganda).
Though if you're going to be a vegetarian on a personal moral basis still eating meat, I personally think you should continue thinking about the issue. Not to mention eating fish will unfortunately be the first thing people will criticise you for. I would recommend learning some basic nutritional information on what you will be lacking and some good vegan/vegetarian cook books.

I've been called out so much because of that you wouldn't believe.

Eleven pages helps me believe.

 

[Totaltruth]

Source?
Why would trying to be profound be the object of my argument? In those posts, the highlighted point is that it is easier to be unhealthy from a badly planned vegetarian meal than from a badly planned normal one, as a deficiency is easily worse than an overabundance in most cases (deficiency in this case can lead to horrible diseases, and overabundance generally just leaves you really, really fat, which can be fought).

Sorry, I thought you said earlier you had studied nutrition, my mistake. Having only majored in Biology I thought complex knowledge of essential proteins would be a vital part to being a nutritionist.
Writing "not exactly profound" was a remark at the in-your-face obivousness of those articles ie. they provided no worthwhile insight into the issue.
Personally, vegans I know, due to them being required to be more vigilant with their nutrition are in fact more healthy than a lot of my other peers.

Just for fairness, maybe you should provide a link that explains the information you posted. I believe I gave the tree whisperer the same line when he said he studied biology, with no additional evidence given. Saying you study biology isn't the same as evidence.

http://www.essortment.com/lifestyle/dietarysuppleme_soha.htm
http://www.csmngt.com/amino_acids.htm

Here's a little bit I quickly dug up from the internet, it seems to support your claim. It just would be handy to include it in your post. Saves you time when people ask for sources.

Thanks(haven't looked at it yet though, I trust you!)
But c'mon...whispering to trees!
After finding what's on current booklists for 1st Year Science Students
Biology: Eighth Edition. Campbell, Reece and Meyers. 2009.
(Don't get me for incorrect citing!!! It's been too long.)

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

But c'mon...whispering to trees!

I know. I hear you.

Somehow, though, I don't think the trees do.

 

[Lexodus]

Incorrect. I'm saying that, because we can, we should be able to.

I can beat people up and take their money, that doesn't mean I should become a mugger instead of getting a job if it's the path of less resistance.

Okay, firstly, that is retarded as I was only using the current situation, so you have removed contextual information, and thus misquoted me

I read your entire post; I found nothing in the rest of what you said that qualifies what I post so that for purposes of my response, I'm misquoting you.

, but secondly, yes you should be ABLE to. You probably shouldn't DO, in this situation, but you should be ABLE to DO.

Well, then you're right--you're not making an Appeal to Nature fallacy: you're simply arguing that nature should determine what is moral. Of course, you need to support that now with something other than "it's natural" or the equivalent.

Um, just don't set up a basis for judging people--"particular word"-- unless you actually mean it.

or what? You're going to cry?

I'm...not going to take your argument seriously and I'm going to discount the things you say? I thought that was the purpose of this exchange.

Good; it will just prove my point that if I do one thing you don't like, you won't listen to what I've said, and the same reflects for anyone else that's contradicting you.

Then you should use that proof, not make an argument about how the opposite extreme is unhealthy.

Many people have,

But you weren't, not in that particular instance. I was only talking about you in that particular instance.

And I wasn't. See how that works?

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Then you should use that proof, not make an argument about how the opposite extreme is unhealthy.

Many people have,

But you weren't, not in that particular instance. I was only talking about you in that particular instance.

And I wasn't. See how that works?

Tell you what: could you please post that evidence again so we can discuss this properly? Otherwise we're just going back and forth over nothing.

 

[Totaltruth]

But c'mon...whispering to trees!

I know. I hear you.

Somehow, though, I don't think the trees do.

*chuckles*
I'll salvage what little good is likely to come from the rest of this thread.

 

[Elivercury]

Wow this is fun, big can of worms stirred up here. I can't help but wonder though, that while i respect your decision (even if i think your reasoning is weak), it sounds to me like you're more concerned with animal welfare than the fact someone on your plate used to be furry and cute. Which there is nothing wrong with at all, in fact it's to be commended in my opinion. But if this is the case, why not just buy from sources where the animals are treated correctly? Jumping straight to vegetarianism seems like jumping with both feet first where, walking would do.

I personally only buy Free range chicken and eggs, which i know have been given the best life possible in captivity (which honestly probably is more pleasant than in the wild...do chickens even exist in the wild anymore?). Cow i only buy British beef, which is generally from a farm, and cows just sit around in a field in the wild, so i fail to see how a fence and someone to make sure they don't get sick bothers them. Fish i'll be honest I've never bothered much about as i'm not a big fish eater, and while i probably SHOULD check the sources, i don't buy it often enough that it affects me (probably less than once a month).

Not that i'm trying to change your decision, as if you're happy with it i wish you the best of luck, just giving my two cents.

On the topic of Carnivores, Herbivores and Omnivores, does it really matter that people call themselves vegetarianism? I mean, you say that people need to make up a word to point out they're not following nature, does this apply to homosexuals? What about political parties, should we involve those also? I think it's more of a social thing than a nature thing.

Also being a Carnivore i'm pretty certain is impossible due to insufficient carbohydrates and the amount of Protein, iron and fat in red meat would kill you. However i could be mistaken about that, as animals do manage it, and i'm not biology savvy enough to know whether nutritionally it's possible for humans.

As with the pills argument, it's better to avoid pills if possible, as vitamins and iron and other such nutrients aren't stored like fat, thus if you take a concentrated dose you only actually get what you can absorb in the time it passes through your system, which is maybe 20%? That is why pills give over your RDA, whereas meat and other food give it a lot slower as well as usually containing things that help you absorb nutrients.