Vegetarianism

[Chartic]

TO ALL THE VEGETARIANS,

if you are a vegetarian because of a health choice or personal preference, good for you,

if you are a vegetarian because you don't want to eat something that was raised to die, you are a hypocrite, because farmed plants are also raised to die,

if you try to get other people to convert to a vegetarian diet, the global population currently exceeds the food being produced, and in several decades famine will devastate the world, you think we should eliminate a source of food because it has a face? you make me want to go eat three animals for every one animal you didn't, except that would contribute to famine almost as badly

Frankly I find it strange that you are comparing plants to animals. If you are willing to say that then, if you're willing to eat meat why not become a cannibal?

I don't care if other people eat meat and won't try to change what you do, but in return don't try to do it to me.

Oh and Farming Plants produces a lot less waste than raising animals. I'm sure the people who have to live near pig farms would prefer living near a place that only farms vegetables.

If i tried to change your lifestyle, i would be as big of a hypocrite as PETA, did you read the first sentence? I just don't like preachy vegetarians acting like they are better than the unenlightening omnivores.

The difference between eating meat and being a cannibal is that being a cannibal is illegal in my community, but i like how you just assume that i am not a cannibal. You never know, i could be the guy that really does the stuff mentioned in dead baby jokes. And the other difference is that i have yet to meat a cow or pig that could theoretically have a job in society other that producing food or being in a performance.

And as someone who has lived ONLY in rural areas for the bast 10 years, i can truthfully say that living next to a pig farm is not that bad, and it is not any worse than living next to a corn farm or in Iowa (corn farm joke), and running a farm with both a large amount of livestock AND and large amount of land dedicated to crops actually has less waste than a farm dedicated to either meat or grain, because the parts of a plant that cannot be prepared and sold can be ground up and used as animal feed, and animal waste can be used as low grade fertilizer.

First of all, I wasn't being arrogant or trying to bring down people who eat meat, I just wanted advice from people so that I could remain healthy. And because of that I have been flamed by a bunch of people who hate Vegetarians because they know some that are arrogant.

I was joking about being a cannibal but please don't try to make a weak joke out of it. I was making of how awful your comparisons are.

And too your last argument, the most meat in the US is created on huge farms that just create that certain type of meat, like pig, chicken, or whatever. The most common thing that people complain about those, they often smell awful from all the animal waste that comes from there.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

1) Ever see a battery farm?
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/egg-battery.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_battery_-_caged_chicken
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/series6/chicken_run_battery_hens_free_range.shtml
We're talking about real agribusiness farms, not your uncle's ranch.

2) Doesn't matter. If you argue that letting a relatively small number of field mice getting killed by grain combines is bad, then the way we treat chickens is much, much worse. I'm not saying that animals are people - I'm saying the order of magnitude and the way we treat the animals is an important distinction.

3) And I quote: "I think that vegetarianism for the sake of health or just not liking the taste of meat is just fine, but moral vegetarianism is purely hypocritical." I disagree.

1) I'm loading up episodes of Kenshin at the moment (shocker, I know), so I'd rather not open up even more windows than I already have. I'm also aware that there are cases of animal cruelty in agriculture, but I can't help but feel that these cases don't compose the happenings of the vast majority of the industry. And none of my family have ranches. I'm talking about pretty decent cattle farms that make some pretty decent money. Hell, at the moment, I'm living next to one.

2) I'm arguing against the extreme moral vegetarian who believes that all animal lives are sacred and that we are evil for killing them, that all meat-eaters should be ashamed of themselves for being indirectly responsible for the deaths of animals when they are as well.

3) The hypocritical part comes in where they don't acknowledge the deaths of animals involved in producing the vegetables they eat. If they acknowledge that fact and adjust their arguments accordingly, I don't consider them hypocrites. From that point, I consider them different than myself, and not much more. I suppose the best way to describe it in my original post would be to say "extreme moral vegetarians" as opposed to "moral vegetarians." I tend to speak in extremes until someone feels like finding out the specifics of how I feel on the matters at hand.

1) Animal cruelty is standard practice in agriculture. If the animals are all freerange, you have yourself an exception to the rule. Factory farming is the standard because it's cheap.

2) It's not about animal death so much as it's about blatant, intentional animal cruelty.

3) I think it's more of a matter of you intentionally focusing on the small, select few failings of vegetarians instead of the actual issue presented. Even if the vegetarians who eat mass produced grain are wrong, that doesn't make factory farming right. You see what I'm saying? The hypocrisy, if any, is irrelevant to the argument.

I'm not a vegetarian, and I'm not trying to convert you, I just don't like the arguments that the self-styled carnivores are making.

 

[Acaroid]

I have recently started practicing vegetarianism. I still eat fish but will not eat any other type of meat due to them being raised to die. I would like to know if anyone has any advice for me or any warnings that my lifestyle of not eating much meat could have on me.

Well if your just a vegitarian, ou dont have anything to really worry about. Mind you i personally dont understand why you arnt a vegan, because milk cows are bread for death also. Also dairy is the most f'ed up thing to eat in the world... it is kinda sick and horrible, I say eat all the meat you want, it is dairy that is the real un-natural, gross thing you can possibly eat...

being a vegan would be harder as you dont have that large of source of b12 avalible, so you would need to supliment or eat fortafied foods (or eat seaweed). Vegetables use to have b12 but due to centuries of farming methods it no longer contains it.

being a vegan you also hav to have a bit knowledge of nutrition I would guess, it would take alot of reading and maybe you should invest in a nutritional almanac (mind you EVERYONE should do that anyway, vegi or not, most people have no idea about nutrition and should read up about the real facts.. not the stupid stuff they teach ins chools or put on TV, most of it is somewhat mis-informed)

 

[Chartic]

I have recently started practicing vegetarianism. I still eat fish but will not eat any other type of meat due to them being raised to die. I would like to know if anyone has any advice for me or any warnings that my lifestyle of not eating much meat could have on me.

Well if your just a vegitarian, ou dont have anything to really worry about. Mind you i personally dont understand why you arnt a vegan, because milk cows are bread for death also. Also dairy is the most f'ed up thing to eat in the world... it is kinda sick and horrible, I say eat all the meat you want, it is dairy that is the real un-natural, gross thing you can possibly eat...

being a vegan would be harder as you dont have that large of source of b12 avalible, so you would need to supliment or eat fortafied foods (or eat seaweed). Vegetables use to have b12 but due to centuries of farming methods it no longer contains it.

being a vegan you also hav to have a bit knowledge of nutrition I would guess, it would take alot of reading and maybe you should invest in a nutritional almanac (mind you EVERYONE should do that anyway, vegi or not, most people have no idea about nutrition and should read up about the real facts.. not the stupid stuff they teach ins chools or put on TV, most of it is somewhat mis-informed)

I have no clue about your beginning paragraph about milk being gross or something, but thanks for the tips.

 

[WickedSkin]

You are going to have to eat MASSIVE amounts of food from now on. If you want to eat all the protein and such you need. if you work out and want to gain weight you are pretty much screwed. But since you are not a vegan I guess you could eat protein shakes and such.

A child in Africa might be starving right now because of you choosing to be a vegetarian! The veggies you eat are grown to die!

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

I have recently started practicing vegetarianism. I still eat fish but will not eat any other type of meat due to them being raised to die. I would like to know if anyone has any advice for me or any warnings that my lifestyle of not eating much meat could have on me.

Well if your just a vegitarian, ou dont have anything to really worry about. Mind you i personally dont understand why you arnt a vegan, because milk cows are bread for death also. Also dairy is the most f'ed up thing to eat in the world... it is kinda sick and horrible, I say eat all the meat you want, it is dairy that is the real un-natural, gross thing you can possibly eat...

being a vegan would be harder as you dont have that large of source of b12 avalible, so you would need to supliment or eat fortafied foods (or eat seaweed). Vegetables use to have b12 but due to centuries of farming methods it no longer contains it.

being a vegan you also hav to have a bit knowledge of nutrition I would guess, it would take alot of reading and maybe you should invest in a nutritional almanac (mind you EVERYONE should do that anyway, vegi or not, most people have no idea about nutrition and should read up about the real facts.. not the stupid stuff they teach ins chools or put on TV, most of it is somewhat mis-informed)

I have no clue about your beginning paragraph about milk being gross or something, but thanks for the tips.

Eh, the way we treat dairy cows is actually pretty sick. The machines overmilk the cows and cause damage to their udders. As a result, milk contains a small amount of cow pus. Anyway, there's a maximum amount of puss that's allowed in your milk. No, I'm not making this shit up. [http://www.agweb.com/DairyToday/Article.aspx?id=146553]

Pleasant, right?

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

A child in Africa might be starving right now because of you choosing to be a vegetarian! The veggies you eat are grown to die!

Yeah, that's retarded.

 

[yeah_so_no]

Personally, I find it easy to overlook the way the animals are treated because meat is delicious. Of course I completely respect you if you choose not to eat it. I mean no offense from this, but someone sent me this picture the other day and I thought it was funny.

Spoiler

That picture is AWESOME, and props to the person who put up the "Carnivore?" flier.

oh nice

Sense of humor, get you one.

So what you're really afraid of is the thought of your kids looking down on you?

Meat, on it's own, is pretty bland. It's all spices and marinades.

Not really, I can always just have new kids. (I don't have any yet)

Meat is delicious on it's own sometimes. Scallops, oysters, cappacio, sashimi, etc.

Yeah, "on it's own" with garlic butter, soy sauce, and wasabi.

Whatev; I personally prefer meat without spices, sauces, marinades, garlic butter, soy, wasabi, or any of that. Just give me my delicious, tasty meat as-is, without covering it up.

Seriously now--do you eat all your veggies without adding anything to them? If so, good god, your meals must be so terribly bland.

I love spinach, but like it even better with mirin and soy. Tofu is fab but tastes better with things added to it or in other dishes. Cheese+broccoli=win. A splash of vinegar makes collard greens taste amazing, that pinch of salt to lima beans when they're cooking makes all the taste difference, and anyone tries to take the butter part away from the butter-sauteed eggplant in my mabo eggplant is in for a world of hurt. Chickpeas are great; they're even better in veggie and coconut curry.

People season everything to make it taste better, not just meat. You are being disingenuous.

For the OP, good luck going vegetarian. Like everyone was saying, be careful with your protein and iron (depending on your gender, your iron intake needs are different--women in their childbearing years need a lot more iron than men).

And all this talk of food has got me hungry, and I just finished off all my leftover pizza. Bah.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Whatev; I personally prefer meat without spices, sauces, marinades, garlic butter, soy, wasabi, or any of that. Just give me my delicious, tasty meat as-is, without covering it up.

Seriously now--do you eat all your veggies without adding anything to them? If so, good god, your meals must be so terribly bland.

I love spinach, but like it even better with mirin and soy. Tofu is fab but tastes better with things added to it or in other dishes. Cheese+broccoli=win. A splash of vinegar makes collard greens taste amazing, that pinch of salt to lima beans when they're cooking makes all the taste difference, and anyone tries to take the butter part away from the butter-sauteed eggplant in my mabo eggplant is in for a world of hurt. Chickpeas are great; they're even better in veggie and coconut curry.

I'm not a vegetarian and I didn't say seasonings are bad. I'm saying meat tastes good because it's seasoned, marinated, and complimented with other flavors. The same can be done with vegetable dished. It's called cooking.

Unseasoned meat is bland.

 

[Lord Beautiful]

1) Ever see a battery farm?
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/egg-battery.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_battery_-_caged_chicken
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/series6/chicken_run_battery_hens_free_range.shtml
We're talking about real agribusiness farms, not your uncle's ranch.

2) Doesn't matter. If you argue that letting a relatively small number of field mice getting killed by grain combines is bad, then the way we treat chickens is much, much worse. I'm not saying that animals are people - I'm saying the order of magnitude and the way we treat the animals is an important distinction.

3) And I quote: "I think that vegetarianism for the sake of health or just not liking the taste of meat is just fine, but moral vegetarianism is purely hypocritical." I disagree.

1) I'm loading up episodes of Kenshin at the moment (shocker, I know), so I'd rather not open up even more windows than I already have. I'm also aware that there are cases of animal cruelty in agriculture, but I can't help but feel that these cases don't compose the happenings of the vast majority of the industry. And none of my family have ranches. I'm talking about pretty decent cattle farms that make some pretty decent money. Hell, at the moment, I'm living next to one.

2) I'm arguing against the extreme moral vegetarian who believes that all animal lives are sacred and that we are evil for killing them, that all meat-eaters should be ashamed of themselves for being indirectly responsible for the deaths of animals when they are as well.

3) The hypocritical part comes in where they don't acknowledge the deaths of animals involved in producing the vegetables they eat. If they acknowledge that fact and adjust their arguments accordingly, I don't consider them hypocrites. From that point, I consider them different than myself, and not much more. I suppose the best way to describe it in my original post would be to say "extreme moral vegetarians" as opposed to "moral vegetarians." I tend to speak in extremes until someone feels like finding out the specifics of how I feel on the matters at hand.

1) Animal cruelty is standard practice in agriculture. If the animals are all freerange, you have yourself an exception to the rule. Factory farming is the standard because it's cheap.

2) It's not about animal death so much as it's about blatant, intentional animal cruelty.

3) I think it's more of a matter of you intentionally focusing on the small, select few failings of vegetarians instead of the actual issue presented. Even if the vegetarians who eat mass produced grain are wrong, that doesn't make factory farming right. You see what I'm saying? The hypocrisy, if any, is irrelevant to the argument.

1) M'kay.

2) I'm with you so far.

3) I never said factory farming was right (at least I don't think I did). And relative to our discussion, the hypocrisy thing isn't irrelevent at all, as it is in fact the very thing you and I have been discussing. We've scarcely touched on the ethics of farming outside of how they relate to the hypocrisy of (extreme) moral vegetarians.

If you'd like to discuss the ethics themselves, I'm game. Just bear in mind that I'm not very passionate about that subject. I'm not very passionate about much of anything, actually. In fact, judging by your input on the matter, we might feel somewhat similarly about it, so there's not much debating fun to be had there, even if there was a fire burning within my soul on the subject of commercial agriculture.

I'm not a vegetarian, and I'm not trying to convert you, I just don't like the arguments that the self-styled carnivores are making.

I'm no carnivore. Granted, I enjoy meat more than vegetables and the like, but I enjoy the latter regardless. Except brussel sprouts. I hate brussel sprouts. Damn them.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

I'm not a vegetarian, and I'm not trying to convert you, I just don't like the arguments that the self-styled carnivores are making.

I'm no carnivore. Granted, I enjoy meat more than vegetables and the like, but I enjoy the latter regardless. Except brussel sprouts. I hate brussel sprouts. Damn them.

You were using Maddox's hypocrisy argument. That's what I was referring to.

 

[WickedSkin]

A child in Africa might be starving right now because of you choosing to be a vegetarian! The veggies you eat are grown to die!

Yeah, that's retarded.

Yeah funny isn't it?. There is an ounce of irony around this. Though it's not completely untrue.

Some of the food that is not eaten is sent to African nations and others in need of help as aid. You have to eat more as a vegetarian which means less food is going to be available for those in need.

Also the vegetables were grown to die.

 

[Lord Beautiful]

I'm not a vegetarian, and I'm not trying to convert you, I just don't like the arguments that the self-styled carnivores are making.

I'm no carnivore. Granted, I enjoy meat more than vegetables and the like, but I enjoy the latter regardless. Except brussel sprouts. I hate brussel sprouts. Damn them.

You were using Maddox's hypocrisy argument. That's what I was referring to.

I guess I just happen to think that way within the boundaries that I've already outlined.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

A child in Africa might be starving right now because of you choosing to be a vegetarian! The veggies you eat are grown to die!

Yeah, that's retarded.

Someone is smart and didn't notice any irony. Though it's not completely untrue.

Some of the food that is not eaten is sent to African nations and others in need of help as aid. You have to eat more as a vegetarian which means less food is going to be available for those in need.

Also the vegetables were grown to die.

Yeah, except we'd also be using less resources on meat - which is a very energy inefficient way of getting food. So we'd actually have more food resources to ship to Africa in the long run.

And, last I checked, carrots aren't social animals with mental states.

I'm not a vegetarian, and I'm not trying to convert you, I just don't like the arguments that the self-styled carnivores are making.

I'm no carnivore. Granted, I enjoy meat more than vegetables and the like, but I enjoy the latter regardless. Except brussel sprouts. I hate brussel sprouts. Damn them.

You were using Maddox's hypocrisy argument. That's what I was referring to.

I guess I just happen to think that way within the boundaries that I've already outlined.

That'd be some coincidence.

 

[Numbert]

Okay I've been very displeased with the internet after having read through how this thread has been going, because people are voicing ill-founded and non researched arguments, so as a vegetarian let me make some clarifications. Several among you have made vague arguments the vegetarians are all in it to save animals and be smug. While it's true that many vegetarians have made the step due to a moral reasoning this is certainly not the case with all vegetarians and that moral choice in no way applies superiority. You are simply playing off of an old, and ill-founded stereotype probably stemming from moronic organizations such as Peta. Other reasons for giving up meat are like Chartic is considering for health reasons, because red meat in particular is very harmful in any sort of excess. Their are people like me who gave up meat to take steps at reducing or eliminating the greenhouse grasses emitted from over breeding of cattle and other livestock. The methane and carbon from cattle far exceed that of all the earths automobiles. Lastly are those who give up meat for a religious or moral precept. I'm always concerned about these people because it is important that reasoning be founded on good logic (which many in this category have),and many are simply acting on a false sense of general goodness in all life. Also any and all opposition arguments referencing natural selection are null and void, due to the unnatural circumstance of their lives and deaths. Please think clearly before hitting the little post button please.

 

[Leorex]

Ghandi pretended to eat food he grew him self, good man.

BTW, i eat meat, but i dont drink sodas

but aslong as you let me eat my meat, and i let you eat your apple, then we are all fine right.

 

[Skreeee]

I have recently started practicing vegetarianism. I still eat fish but will not eat any other type of meat due to them being raised to die. I would like to know if anyone has any advice for me or any warnings that my lifestyle of not eating much meat could have on me.

Pescatarian = eats only veggies and fish (and possibly products from animals such as cheese).
Vegetarian = no meat whatsoever.

Just thought I'd give a quick vocab lecture, as there are some vegetarians/vegans who would rip you a new, structurally superfluous asshole for getting those mixed up. At best they would rant about how you're such a hypocrite, and at worst...well, I'm not sure how dastardly they can get actually...

EDIT--Also, how could you do that to the poor sea kittens?!

 

[comet5002]

Does being raised to die really matter? If we all just hunted our meat, does that make it better? It would seem that a wild animal, trying desperately to live only to be one of our meals seems worse then an animal who was raised in the lap of luxury (comparatively) and killed after the prime of their life. Seems like a good deal.

QFT

 

[comet5002]

Okay I've been very displeased with the internet after having read through how this thread has been going, because people are voicing ill-founded and non researched arguments, so as a vegetarian let me make some clarifications. Several among you have made vague arguments the vegetarians are all in it to save animals and be smug. While it's true that many vegetarians have made the step due to a moral reasoning this is certainly not the case with all vegetarians and that moral choice in no way applies superiority. You are simply playing off of an old, and ill-founded stereotype probably stemming from moronic organizations such as Peta. Other reasons for giving up meat are like Chartic is considering for health reasons, because red meat in particular is very harmful in any sort of excess. Their are people like me who gave up meat to take steps at reducing or eliminating the greenhouse grasses emitted from over breeding of cattle and other livestock. The methane and carbon from cattle far exceed that of all the earths automobiles. Lastly are those who give up meat for a religious or moral precept. I'm always concerned about these people because it is important that reasoning be founded on good logic (which many in this category have),and many are simply acting on a false sense of general goodness in all life. Also any and all opposition arguments referencing natural selection are null and void, due to the unnatural circumstance of their lives and deaths. Please think clearly before hitting the little post button please.

You forgot that some people simply don't like meat. I know quite a few people like that. They have no problem with eating meat, they just don't like it, so they call themselves vegetarians.

 

[WickedSkin]

A child in Africa might be starving right now because of you choosing to be a vegetarian! The veggies you eat are grown to die!

Yeah, that's retarded.

Someone is smart and didn't notice any irony. Though it's not completely untrue.

Some of the food that is not eaten is sent to African nations and others in need of help as aid. You have to eat more as a vegetarian which means less food is going to be available for those in need.

Also the vegetables were grown to die.

Yeah, except we'd also be using less resources on meat - which is a very energy inefficient way of getting food. So we'd actually have more food resources to ship to Africa in the long run.

And, last I checked, carrots aren't social animals with mental states.

That would still mean we'd have to kill ass loads of animals. Energy? Well the cow has to eat to live and grow. It mostly eats grass. If we stop eating meat and release the cow we can replace it's meadow with veggies. But we'd still need more and that cow still has to eat. Also counting calories meat is pretty efficient.

Who said they had? And what does that have to do with the veggies being grown to die?