Vegetarians - why?

[psyks]

Sorry, but the person I was replying to wasn't talking about pest control, the term he used was "being run over by a combine harvester". The distinction I'm making is about regarding animals as property. Pest control doesn't fit into that category since there is still a degree of liberty and the element of ownership or slavery isn't raised at any point. What worries me more is that you interpret "slow deaths from poisoning, wounded by gunshot and starvation" as giving you carte blanche to eat meat rather than calling for more humane treatment. I'm not going to lie, I don't know a lot about pest control techniques, but I know that cows sure as fuck are tortured for meat. Here's a link to a lovely site whose videos I barely have the stomach to watch:
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx

"What worries me more is that you interpret "slow deaths from poisoning, wounded by gunshot and starvation" as giving you carte blanche to eat meat rather than calling for more humane treatment."

Straw man argument.
You are dodging the issue that avoiding the eating of animal products avoids animals dying for your food. I'm pointing out that your reasoning is flawed due to ignorance of actual farming practices. To live a life where you are not even indirectly responsible for animals dying is unsustainable but for a tiny privileged part of the population.

I eat meat not because animals are killed even in the growing of crops. I eat meat because I like eating it and I have a sense of proportion and distinction when it comes to the value of life, not flat absolutes like 'all life is equal'.

Slavery. Animals. Give me a break. You try leaving gates open in the countryside and you will get animals and people killed as cows wander into traffic.

I find it intellectually dishonest that you would compare animal husbandry to slavery. No cow has ever stood up the address the legislature that "Are we not men, and your brothers?", please you show your ignorance of history and abuse of peoples' perceptions.

Looking beyond you giving me such a biased and un-reputable source as mercyforanimals.com this doesn't change the fact that these practices are both the exception and illegal but more than that unnecessary to the actual business of meat production. No reason to ban meat industry.

You're really an amateur. A patronising amateur that's just learnt what the word "straw-man" means and is in the practice of disregarding sources. What's wrong with you? "no cow has ever stood up", of course they haven't, because they're cows and can't talk. Of course I'm citing "mercyforanimals" because who else is going to put that information out there? You're confusing the persuasion of the source and the validity of the material.
Secondly, I'm not dodging any issue. Animals die for a lot of reasons. Yes, perhaps we have to protect our crops, but killing and torturing animals for meat is just a fucking frivolous waste of life. How inflated is your ego that you would put an animal through the torture you saw in those videos, just so you can eat what you want, you selfish ass? Once again, I accept that not all animals have terrible living conditions, but a huge majority of them do. I believe that factory farming in the US counts for around 98% of all meat produced.

Again, I have an interest in reducing the number of animals that are kept in cages and tortured. So, I stopped eating meat and therefore stopped supporting that industry. You may claim to have a sense of perspective, but you're clearly lacking in humility by placing yourself firmly above every other living creature.

 

[Treblaine]

It's got nothing to do with copying the animals. It's to do with ethics. Other animals don't farm because they don't have the ability to. We shouldn't because it's wrong. So it's nothing to do with copying. I believe that animals should have the chance to live instead of being stuck in a small area of grass their entire lives, to be dragged away and shot or decapitated or however the particular abbatoir does it before ANY of them get ANY chance to live their whole lives. Entire species of animals imprisoned and butchered. The fact that you're assuming I want to stop farming just to copy other animals proves you haven't listened to anything I've said.

Well that's just a waste, we should feed, house and care for animals for up to a DECADE before eating them?

Why should we keep animals bred for meat alive for so long? In the wild that doesn't happen, predators WILL target the young even newborn animals and eat them without hesitation. What the hell would a pig do in 10 years that it won't do in two or three, the time it gets to grow big enough?

Look, these animals cost a lot to be kept alive, they only bred at all for their meat, waiting till their meat is terrible quality as their body is falling apart makes no sense. You act as if these farm animals are like people who would live varied, fulfilling and productive lives if they had the chance.

I've worked on a farm with animals, there isn't much to them. I mean if you draw the line of valued consciousness at this level then soon your roomba hoover is going to have a right to live.

 

[PhiMed]

Yes, but a lot of what humans can eat is simply due to the fact that we take time to cook our food. We really couldn't eat many greens otherwise. Our bodies aren't built for it as a main/only source of nutrition (raw of course).

It's really only detrimental nowadays though, because we have to mass produce it, and that is costly and dirty. Seeing it from say, an old fashioned hunter-gatherer society, and things change quite a bit there.

Human's aren't biologically designed to eat meat. Our saliva has been evolving over time to become more acidic to break down meat but it is nowhere nearly as effective as the saliva that carnivore's have. Our intestines are also the same as herbivores and considerably much larger than a normal carnivores. Also our so called "canine teeth" are also the same teeth shared by plant eaters such as primates. We do not have the same sharp teeth that a carnivore would have, such as the frontal teeth of a lion or wolf.

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

I know that a lot of people like for posters to cite a source for their arguments, but couldn't you find a source anywhere that isn't taken directly from a web site dedicated to promoting your point of view? You're citing a persuasive essay as a source. He also cites persuasive essays as sources. The further you get from the primary scientific evidence, the less sense you make and the more full of shit your opponents are allowed to accuse you of being. (You are, by the way)

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

but couldn't you find a source anywhere that isn't taken directly from a web site dedicated to promoting your point of view

Better yet. Try and find one that doesnt rely heavily on the same little inbred clique of modern day miracle workers. I am ofcourse talking about the misleadingly named PCRM and Ornish, Mcdougalls et all.

 

[Drakos.Amatras]

I'm not a vegetarian. This is just a personal experience: My body feels more light and my head feels clearer on a day I consumed little to no meat/protein. I don't make a habit out of eating too much of either, of course, but there are days I go vegetarian for one lap around the clock because I like the feeling. And whenever possible, I stick to fish and seafood instead of meat.

 

[Treblaine]

You're really an amateur. A patronising amateur that's just learnt what the word "straw-man" means and is in the practice of disregarding sources. What's wrong with you? "no cow has ever stood up", of course they haven't, because they're cows and can't talk. Of course I'm citing "mercyforanimals" because who else is going to put that information out there? You're confusing the persuasion of the source and the validity of the material.
Secondly, I'm not dodging any issue. Animals die for a lot of reasons. Yes, perhaps we have to protect our crops, but killing and torturing animals for meat is just a fucking frivolous waste of life. How inflated is your ego that you would put an animal through the torture you saw in those videos, just so you can eat what you want, you selfish ass? Once again, I accept that not all animals have terrible living conditions, but a huge majority of them do. I believe that factory farming in the US counts for around 98% of all meat produced.

Again, I have an interest in reducing the number of animals that are kept in cages and tortured. So, I stopped eating meat and therefore stopped supporting that industry. You may claim to have a sense of perspective, but you're clearly lacking in humility by placing yourself firmly above every other living creature.

The meat I've eaten has NOT come from tortured animals. You can contradict that all you like, but I use something called DISCRETION! I know where my meat comes from and I don't tar all with the same brush.

Also, lol at your:

"torturing animals for meat"

*insult me a few times based on slanderous assumptions*

"Once again, I accept that not all animals have terrible living conditions, but a huge majority of them do. I believe factory farming in the US counts for around 98% of all meat produced"

Such a lame attempt though a series of gross exaggerations and semantic links attempting to paint an extreme and illegal infraction as indicative of ALL OF a global and segmented industry.

"You may claim to have a sense of perspective, but you're clearly lacking in humility by placing yourself firmly above every other living creature."

You are an extremist. You take humility to the extreme beyond all logic and reason, losing sight of why humility is even a virtue.

 

[Spacewolf]

I will say that producing meat is more costly for our environment than producing vegetables. For example, raising a single pound of beef will take the same amount of water that a West African family of four will use in an entire month. It also produces overwhelming amounts of greenhouse gas emissions -- about the same as driving a car at highway speeds for 150 miles.

I wish these lies would just lay down and die allready.

actually the meat bit is true thats where the energy piramid diagrams come from as the energy eaten by a cow is spent on movement, breeding, keeping a constant temp before it reaches whatever eats it.

 

[JasonKaotic]

It's got nothing to do with copying the animals. It's to do with ethics. Other animals don't farm because they don't have the ability to. We shouldn't because it's wrong. So it's nothing to do with copying. I believe that animals should have the chance to live instead of being stuck in a small area of grass their entire lives, to be dragged away and shot or decapitated or however the particular abbatoir does it before ANY of them get ANY chance to live their whole lives. Entire species of animals imprisoned and butchered. The fact that you're assuming I want to stop farming just to copy other animals proves you haven't listened to anything I've said.

Well that's just a waste, we should feed, house and care for animals for up to a DECADE before eating them?

Why should we keep animals bred for meat alive for so long? In the wild that doesn't happen, predators WILL target the young even newborn animals and eat them without hesitation. What the hell would a pig do in 10 years that it won't do in two or three, the time it gets to grow big enough?

Look, these animals cost a lot to be kept alive, they only bred at all for their meat, waiting till their meat is terrible quality as their body is falling apart makes no sense. You act as if these farm animals are like people who would live varied, fulfilling and productive lives if they had the chance.

I've worked on a farm with animals, there isn't much to them. I mean if you draw the line of valued consciousness at this level then soon your roomba hoover is going to have a right to live.

So because their lives aren't as fun as ours, they don't matter? Life isn't as simple as you seem to think. I'm going to mention something as an example: The survival instinct. Every living creature has the survival instinct. A strong will to live. This is really all the proof you should need. If a pig knows it's about to die, it'll try to get the hell out. Just because their lives are shorter doesn't mean there's no point to it and that we can do whatever we want to it. There could be an intelligent species out there somewhere with much, much more fulfilling lives than us who could find us and think of us as you think of animals, and then start farming us. Would that make it just? No, it wouldn't. Because we value our lives, just as animals probably value theirs.

As I've said countless times now, in the wild most animals get the chance to at least live out their lives. There's a chance they could live for their whole lifespan. Even if they don't, they get to live how they're supposed to. There lives would also be a lot more fulfilling.

If animals cost a lot to be kept alive, that's more reason to not keep them in farms! Why would that mean we should keep them? And what does waiting til their meat is old have to do with my point?

If you've worked as a farmer, you naturally wouldn't see any point to them. But there's more to life than you seem to be able to comprehend. Plus, in farms, there's nothing FOR them to do. What do you expect them to do in there? In the wild they'd do more. Look at monkeys, for example. Swinging from trees. If we started rounding them up and cramming them in farms, they'd end up no different to cows and pigs eventually. And saying animals are on the same level as hoovers is pathetic. I don't even need to say anything on that matter.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

lol

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

actually the meat bit is true thats where the energy piramid diagrams come from as the energy eaten by a cow is spent on movement, breeding, keeping a constant temp before it reaches whatever eats it.

LOL good one.

 

[Ampersand]

Did you not get the message where I answered this the first time, here you go.

"Why didn't you mention any of the people killed in farming accidents, I mean it's a pretty dangerous profession and you're bound to pluck on a few of my heart strings if you pull out that little chestnut.

This answers nothing. it is ok that small animals dies in scores because a few people also die? It is bad that both humans and animals die in farming accidents?

You and I are powerful animals and we are bound to cause a certain amount of damage to those around us just by walking around, that's basically impossible to avoid as much as I do hate to admit it but it is our responsibility not to cause harm or unnecessary death on purpose.

And as I told you. Then your dietary choice makes no sense at all.

In case that's to subtle for you the jist is that killing animals on purpose isn't the same as them dying in accidents that a lot of people try pretty hard to avoid.

it is called a calculated risk. you understand that a lot of small animals may die, but you still harvest, even if you have food avialable that only requires a single or a few animals to die for your sake. Come off it allready.

I wasn't saying that it's fine that humans die as well i'm saying it's shit that humans and animals die but we live in an industrial age and shit happens. That doesn't mean we need to add to it by killing on purpose.

So these few animals that are dieing for your sake are in addition to the carnage caused by obtaining your daily requirements of fruit and vegetables......You maniac (sarcastic voice).

 

[KorLeonis]

It's got nothing to do with copying the animals. It's to do with ethics. Other animals don't farm because they don't have the ability to. We shouldn't because it's wrong. So it's nothing to do with copying. I believe that animals should have the chance to live instead of being stuck in a small area of grass their entire lives, to be dragged away and shot or decapitated or however the particular abbatoir does it before ANY of them get ANY chance to live their whole lives. Entire species of animals imprisoned and butchered. The fact that you're assuming I want to stop farming just to copy other animals proves you haven't listened to anything I've said.

Firstly, animals do farm. Termite mounds devote large areas to cultivating fungus using collected plant matter. Ants keep flocks of aphids to "milk" for the sweet liquid they excrete. Farming is certainly not unique to humans.

Secondly, if keeping animals in pain, torturing them for their entire lives produced better tasting meat, I would buy nothing but Extra Cruelty Brand steak. But it doesn't work that way. Content, well-fed, painlessly killed animals produce the best meat, so that is generally the way the meat industry works.

Every last living thing on this planet thrives on the death of other living things. It is as plain and simple as that. You can justify and compartmentalize however you want. You can rate some deaths as more or less important than others, if you want. But none of that changes the simple fact that life depends on death. I revel in that, I kill everything I can, because sooner or later something is going to kill me.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

I wasn't saying that it's fine that humans die as well i'm saying it's shit that humans and animals die but we live in an industrial age and shit happens. That doesn't mean we need to add to it by killing on purpose.

If you start your combine harvester knowing that you will spend the evening clearing carcasses from the blades, then you are killing on purpose. You cannot bend this without explaining how the ethical equation you are using works.

1 cow killed for the sole reason of eating it, is worse than 100 animals killed as a sideeffect of you wanting food. what the.???

Atleast I am conscious about the death and suffering I cause. I dont try to hide the fact away by lukewarm, extremely vague and elastic pocket morality.

 

[Lokithrsourcerer]

Because animals.

Or because they dislike the taste.

Not one, myself, but totally understand the most popular reasoning.

I mean, I'm apparently in the minority in that I find chocolate ice cream absolutely disgusting and terrible.

i dont have a sweet tooth either m8y.

i do love meat though.

OT: in my experiences there are 3 types of vegetarian/ vegan

1. dont like the taste... Fair enough i think their mental but my dad says i'm mad coz i don't like colliflower
2. diet / cant eat for health reasons . fair enough if u cant eat it for medical reasons dieting is bullshit its quite simple eat less and move more. but I can understand trying to loose weight by not eating meat.
3. its cruel, we dont have the right etc. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
we do have the right we are top of the food chain try giving a celery stick to a lion. eating meat isnt cruel. some people who keep/kill animals are cruel but they should be punished not the rest of us and despite what PETA would have you believe they are in the minority. most of the animals we eat would not even exist if we didnt.

i have a well researched counterpoint for every argument for not eating meat i have accidently convinced a number of my non-meat friends to change there habits just from general discussion even a hard-line vegan activist type. i've never tried to push my views on other people but am well armed for when they try to do the same.

contrary to what a lot of people egos seem to think we are just animals clever animals but animals all the same

i think this sketch offers teh best argument for eating meat though

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

I hate to interrupt this lovely flame war, but there are several reasons why I am a vegetarian:

1. (Most important) I was born and raised one. I've never eaten meat in my life. Converting to eating meat would be a long, unpleasant process that I really have no desire to put myself through. Just ask a mother who has introduced meat to her child's diet how unpleasant it really is.

2. Meat has never appealed to me, since, due to my upbringing, I just can't see it as food; only as dead animals.

3. Environmental reasons.

4. Health reasons.

5. Since I'm a big wuss, I feel incapable of killing an animal. Therefore, I would feel like a hypocrite if I ate one after letting someone else do the dirty work for me.

I'm not a preachy vegetarian, I really don't care what anyone else eats. But I do get angry when people learn that I'm a vegetarian, assume that I'm going to be preachy, and then start preemptively yelling at me about how they can eat whatever they want. (It's happened before, numerous times.) No one said you couldn't, dude. I'm leaving you alone, so kindly show me the same courtesy.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Converting to eating meat would be a long, unpleasant process that I really have no desire to put myself through

Out of curiosity, what do you think would happen?

 

[JasonKaotic]

It's got nothing to do with copying the animals. It's to do with ethics. Other animals don't farm because they don't have the ability to. We shouldn't because it's wrong. So it's nothing to do with copying. I believe that animals should have the chance to live instead of being stuck in a small area of grass their entire lives, to be dragged away and shot or decapitated or however the particular abbatoir does it before ANY of them get ANY chance to live their whole lives. Entire species of animals imprisoned and butchered. The fact that you're assuming I want to stop farming just to copy other animals proves you haven't listened to anything I've said.

Firstly, animals do farm. Termite mounds devote large areas to cultivating fungus using collected plant matter. Ants keep flocks of aphids to "milk" for the sweet liquid they excrete. Farming is certainly not unique to humans.

Secondly, if keeping animals in pain, torturing them for their entire lives produced better tasting meat, I would buy nothing but Extra Cruelty Brand steak. But it doesn't work that way. Content, well-fed, painlessly killed animals produce the best meat, so that is generally the way the meat industry works.

Every last living thing on this planet thrives on the death of other living things. It is as plain and simple as that. You can justify and compartmentalize however you want. You can rate some deaths as more or less important than others, if you want. But none of that changes the simple fact that life depends on death. I revel in that, I kill everything I can, because sooner or later something is going to kill me.

Fungus is a plant. It has no emotion, feeling or thought. Which is why I'm a vegetarian, not starved. Ants don't keep every single living aphid in these farms, and they don't slaugher them quarterway through their life.

If you'd read my other posts, how they're killed isn't my point. As I said in my original post, would you rather every single human rounded up into small areas of grass and never again be able to live out anything close to their whole lifespan, to be taken to abbatoirs and slaughtered, or every now and then have one picked off from their home, with the majority of the population continuing as normal? These are lives, not resources to be used up. Living creatures with feelings and emotions. And it's not that we don't torture then and keep them in pain anyway, animal testing exists. Human superiority is what I'm against, not the taste of meat.

Yes, everything does thrive on the death of other living things. I really, really can't be bothered to go through every single thing I went through with that other guy for the fifth time, so just read the other things I've said for my response to that. And rating deaths as more or less important is what I'm against. It's what people like YOU do. And it's not the fault of the cows or pigs or anything else you get meat from that you're going to die someday. If that's your view on things, why don't you go out and kill everyone because someday one of them will probably start some kind of new holocaust?

 

[Lokithrsourcerer]

I hate to interrupt this lovely flame war, but there are several reasons why I am a vegetarian:

1. (Most important) I was born and raised one. I've never eaten meat in my life. Converting to eating meat would be a long, unpleasant process that I really have no desire to put myself through. Just ask a mother who has introduced meat to her child's diet how unpleasant it really is.

2. Meat has never appealed to me, since, due to my upbringing, I just can't see it as food; only as dead animals.

3. Environmental reasons.

4. Health reasons.

5. Since I'm a big wuss, I feel incapable of killing an animal. Therefore, I would feel like a hypocrite if I ate one after letting someone else do the dirty work for me.

I'm not a preachy vegetarian, I really don't care what anyone else eats. But I do get angry when people learn that I'm a vegetarian, assume that I'm going to be preachy, and then start preemptively yelling at me about how they can eat whatever they want. (It's happened before, numerous times.) No one said you couldn't, dude. I'm leaving you alone, so kindly show me the same courtesy.

thats fair enough m8 all my pro-meat "preachy-ness" is for counter attacks only. I have a lot of vegi and vegan friends and in all my days i've only ever "attacked" one person. a very good friend of mine who's extreme vegan diet was actually having negative effects on his health. these days (especially since he had a kid) he eats dairy and fish and as a result has been in much better health

 

[Sabinfrost]

Personally I'm not one way or another, I love vegetarian and non-vegetarian food.

I was with a vegetarian for a while, and became one for the sake of convenience, so I suppose that can answer part of the OPs question.

Do I think it is morally wrong to eat animals? I think it is morally questionable at the least, but having worked in the meat industry I understand that by buying the salad instead of the cheeseburger at McDonalds I'm making little difference.

Until there is a widespread shift in the way society thinks, being a vegetarian is great on paper and that is about it. You compromise your convenience and health without rigorous attention to diet or supplements for the sake of some piece of mind, which I have due to the fact I'm socially accepted eating meat.

 

[psyks]

You're really an amateur. A patronising amateur that's just learnt what the word "straw-man" means and is in the practice of disregarding sources. What's wrong with you? "no cow has ever stood up", of course they haven't, because they're cows and can't talk. Of course I'm citing "mercyforanimals" because who else is going to put that information out there? You're confusing the persuasion of the source and the validity of the material.
Secondly, I'm not dodging any issue. Animals die for a lot of reasons. Yes, perhaps we have to protect our crops, but killing and torturing animals for meat is just a fucking frivolous waste of life. How inflated is your ego that you would put an animal through the torture you saw in those videos, just so you can eat what you want, you selfish ass? Once again, I accept that not all animals have terrible living conditions, but a huge majority of them do. I believe that factory farming in the US counts for around 98% of all meat produced.

Again, I have an interest in reducing the number of animals that are kept in cages and tortured. So, I stopped eating meat and therefore stopped supporting that industry. You may claim to have a sense of perspective, but you're clearly lacking in humility by placing yourself firmly above every other living creature.

The meat I've eaten has NOT come from tortured animals. You can contradict that all you like, but I use something called DISCRETION! I know where my meat comes from and I don't tar all with the same brush.

Also, lol at your:

"torturing animals for meat"

*insult me a few times based on slanderous assumptions*

"Once again, I accept that not all animals have terrible living conditions, but a huge majority of them do. I believe factory farming in the US counts for around 98% of all meat produced"

Such a lame attempt though a series of gross exaggerations and semantic links attempting to paint an extreme and illegal infraction as indicative of ALL OF a global and segmented industry.

"You may claim to have a sense of perspective, but you're clearly lacking in humility by placing yourself firmly above every other living creature."

You are an extremist. You take humility to the extreme beyond all logic and reason, losing sight of why humility is even a virtue.

Wow, that's a lot of long words you used there buddy, did you bust out the thesaurus to write that one? The reason I'm not going through proper source citations is because I'm arguing with you on the internet, not writing a dissertation. You know exactly where your meat comes from do you? That's great. It seems strange that you haven't mentioned that up till now. If you're so big on source validity, it would seem prudent to practice what you preach because I'm frankly not inclined to take your word for it.
I was wrong by the way. Based on census data from the US department of agriculture, 99% of all meat is factory farmed, and even that's based on data from 2004. If you think factory farming is ok, then that's really your choice. If you're ok with torturing animals, then that's fin. you may even "lol" if it does you pleasure. There's no way you'll ever convince me to join you and I will always look upon your kind with disdain. Not that you require my respect, obviously, being entirely consumed with ego and gluttony. This isn't just an animal rights issue because it also reflects on the individual that would be ambivalent towards the torture of animals for food.
I was talking with a tea party member the other day and she reacted exactly the same way you are. She accused me of insulting her whilst calling me things like "filthy communist", she turned every accusation of racism back on me and then she ignored what I was posting and just focused on dissecting insignificant lines of my argument. So, after delighting in patronising me and my very reasonable beliefs, accusing me of disregarding animal life and then ultimately failing to discuss anything I brought up, I conclude that this is all cognitive dissonance. I know how it feels, believe me. I used to eat meat and I regret every bite of it. So, after hearing arguments from people like dr. Gary Francione, I changed and I feel amazing for it.

Now, I frankly don't give a shit what you do. I thought we might have something in common, but it seem as thought we're from different planets. Apparently it's acceptable for you to passively take part in a frivolous expense of pain and waste of life if you want something for yourself, and then call me the extremist for trying to escape from that sordid industry.