Vegetarians - why?

[JasonKaotic]

Well you're not doing a good job of defending your beliefs either, it seems utterly illogical and ethically muddled.

Then why are you bothering to argue with me? I honestly have better things to do than argue over beliefs on a forum. If you're as intelligent and clever as you're trying to make out to be then so do you.

Because as much as I know how futile it would be I don't want you to post such nonsense and think it is sensible simply because no one challenges it.

I've told you it's nonsense, maybe if enough people tell you that you'll stop to consider how unrealistic your ideals are.

Eventually you'll come around, we all go through stages like this where we seem to have "it all figured out" when really we're just deluding ourself.

Wow. You think I'm stupid, and look at this.
Allow me to educate you on the purpose of this thread.

In the original post, the poster clearly asked, "What are your reasons for it?"
To which, I replied with my reasons for being a vegetarian.

But then, along comes grumpy old Treblaine! He doesn't like vegetarians very much! NO, says Treblaine! I do NOT like this! I will argue and tell him his beliefs are WRONG! And then I will tell him not to post in places! Because he is WRONG!

If you have problems with people stating their beliefs when someone asks for them, there's always the option of not reading topics where people ask for peoples' beliefs.

 

[KorLeonis]

When I was 4 and living in a compound in Bangladesh, I watched one afternoon as a cow was led in, killed, hung from a tree, bled and butchered. Then I happily ate steak for the first, and definitely not last, time. The butchering had to be done at our home because its a predominantly Hindu country, and cows are sacred.

Now I hunt, kill, skin and dress my own meat, and I love it. I make a mean ass deer sausage! I will always eat meat. I will always love meat. One day, just for the hell of eat, I'd like to eat a vegetarian, preferably someone from PETA.

 

[Treblaine]

If someone thought they where to me what I was to a chicken I hardly think they'd be aloud to kill and eat me. Bottom line, I'm an animal and I don't want to be killed, hence it's not ok for me to kill other animals.

Don't delude yourself that moral superiority is a defence mechanism, if a super advanced alien race came along and starts destroying us then they won't spare the vegans.

It also does not follow logically that "not wanting to be killed" therefore means "one should not kill". It's the Sucker's Fallacy. Look at the Prisoner's Dilemma and Richard Dawkins' studies into it.

The reason you don't want to be killed is because you will cease to live, you care about that because your life is precious to yourself, so to are the lives of your loved ones and once you get to know them all humans on this planet (except maybe a few psychopaths).

But a chicken's life is not precious, it has no capability, it has no potential.

It's a chicken. It should not suffer unduly but it is no loss for it to cease living, most of what it contributes to the world are its physical by-products.

 

[Ampersand]

If someone thought they where to me what I was to a chicken I hardly think they'd be aloud to kill and eat me. Bottom line, I'm an animal and I don't want to be killed, hence it's not ok for me to kill other animals.

Don't delude yourself that moral superiority is a defence mechanism, if a super advanced alien race came along and starts destroying us then they won't spare the vegans.

It also does not follow logically that "not wanting to be killed" therefore means "one should not kill". It's the Sucker's Fallacy. Look at the Prisoner's Dilemma and Richard Dawkins' studies into it.

The reason you don't want to be killed is because you will cease to live, you care about that because your life is precious to yourself, so to are the lives of your loved ones and once you get to know them all humans on this planet (except maybe a few psychopaths).

But a chicken's life is not precious, it has no capability, it has no potential.

It's a chicken. It should not suffer unduly but it is no loss for it to cease living, most of what it contributes to the world are its physical by-products.

I don't really care if I'm spared or not, I'd still like to have moral superiority over galactus.

Yeah I know why I assign value to my life. I don't get to judge the worth of the lives of others.

 

[Treblaine]

Well you're not doing a good job of defending your beliefs either, it seems utterly illogical and ethically muddled.

Then why are you bothering to argue with me? I honestly have better things to do than argue over beliefs on a forum. If you're as intelligent and clever as you're trying to make out to be then so do you.

Because as much as I know how futile it would be I don't want you to post such nonsense and think it is sensible simply because no one challenges it.

I've told you it's nonsense, maybe if enough people tell you that you'll stop to consider how unrealistic your ideals are.

Eventually you'll come around, we all go through stages like this where we seem to have "it all figured out" when really we're just deluding ourself.

Wow. You think I'm stupid, and look at this.
Allow me to educate you on the purpose of this thread.

In the original post, the poster clearly asked, "What are your reasons for it?"
To which, I replied with my reasons for being a vegetarian.

But then, along comes grumpy old Treblaine! He doesn't like vegetarians very much! NO, says Treblaine! I do NOT like this! I will argue and tell him his beliefs are WRONG! And then I will tell him not to post in places! Because he is WRONG!

If you have problems with people stating their beliefs when someone asks for them, there's always the option of not reading topics where people ask for peoples' beliefs.

I had no idea you were so sensitive about being told you have flawed reasoning.

Perhaps you doubt your own beliefs? Getting disturbed by the "logical" underpinning being so eroded, not much left but the bare prejudices.

Don't mistake objection to flawed logic to a blanket prejudice is basic beliefs.

Particularly:

"I was only saying that we shouldn't farm animals. Get rid of vegetable farms completely if you want to, I don't care. I just think we should handle our meat eating how we're supposed to. How other animals do."

Ah yes, just copy the animals. That's such an inane reductionist argument to say we shouldn't farm simply because other animals don't.

 

[psyks]

Wow man, so you're equating unintentionally running over small animals with a combine harvester and keeping cows in cages or growing veal or grinding up chicks into feed?

Whoa "unintentionally"?

What do you think pest control entails, asking the hoards of pests to politely not eat all your crops. Perhaps scaring them away but never deliberately hurting them? No, it means DELIBERATELY KILLING THEM!

Far more deaths than with grass reared livestock. Slow deaths from poisoning, wounding by gunshot, and starvation as their habitat is ovetaken. Any idea the effect farming has had on wildlife populations?

Cows are NOT get tortured to get meat. Do not lie. Any farmer who tortures a cow is a fool, it reduces the quality and yield of milk and meat, one keeps them comfortable, healthy and well fed if you have a grain of sense.

Some people abuse animals, but that is criminal. Just like some people abuse people. It's crazy talk to say cows need to be liberated, they are utterly dependant on people to care for them.

Sorry, but the person I was replying to wasn't talking about pest control, the term he used was "being run over by a combine harvester". The distinction I'm making is about regarding animals as property. Pest control doesn't fit into that category since there is still a degree of liberty and the element of ownership or slavery isn't raised at any point. What worries me more is that you interpret "slow deaths from poisoning, wounded by gunshot and starvation" as giving you carte blanche to eat meat rather than calling for more humane treatment. I'm not going to lie, I don't know a lot about pest control techniques, but I know that cows sure as fuck are tortured for meat. Here's a link to a lovely site whose videos I barely have the stomach to watch:
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx
I won't make the claim that all animals are kept like that - I live next door to a farm that keeps its animals in great conditions - but torture doesn't end at the living conditions. Slaughterhouses are mostly the same and torture is very legal.

Even when "free-range" cows, sheep, and pigs are allowed to live outdoors, they are still subjected to excruciating mutilations without painkiller or analgesic, such as castration, branding, dehorning, tail-docking, and tooth-grinding. Once they are fattened to market weight, they are trucked to slaughterhouses. They are denied food, water, and adequate protection from extreme temperatures once in the vehicles, and many die during the trip. These cows, sheep, and pigs are still slaughtered in the same violent ways as factory-farmed animals: They are pushed through narrow chutes, hung upside down on conveyor belts, and have their throats slit; some are dismembered while still fully conscious.

source- http://www.cok.net/lit/freerange.php
If you admit that animals are tortured so you can eat, then you'll see how many cognitive leaps you've made to arrive at your position.

 

[JasonKaotic]

Well you're not doing a good job of defending your beliefs either, it seems utterly illogical and ethically muddled.

Then why are you bothering to argue with me? I honestly have better things to do than argue over beliefs on a forum. If you're as intelligent and clever as you're trying to make out to be then so do you.

Because as much as I know how futile it would be I don't want you to post such nonsense and think it is sensible simply because no one challenges it.

I've told you it's nonsense, maybe if enough people tell you that you'll stop to consider how unrealistic your ideals are.

Eventually you'll come around, we all go through stages like this where we seem to have "it all figured out" when really we're just deluding ourself.

Wow. You think I'm stupid, and look at this.
Allow me to educate you on the purpose of this thread.

In the original post, the poster clearly asked, "What are your reasons for it?"
To which, I replied with my reasons for being a vegetarian.

But then, along comes grumpy old Treblaine! He doesn't like vegetarians very much! NO, says Treblaine! I do NOT like this! I will argue and tell him his beliefs are WRONG! And then I will tell him not to post in places! Because he is WRONG!

If you have problems with people stating their beliefs when someone asks for them, there's always the option of not reading topics where people ask for peoples' beliefs.

I had no idea you were so sensitive about being told you have flawed reasoning.

Perhaps you doubt your own beliefs? Getting disturbed by the "logical" underpinning being so eroded, not much left but the bare prejudices.

Don't mistake objection to flawed logic to a blanket prejudice is basic beliefs.

Particularly:

"I was only saying that we shouldn't farm animals. Get rid of vegetable farms completely if you want to, I don't care. I just think we should handle our meat eating how we're supposed to. How other animals do."

Ah yes, just copy the animals. That's such an inane reductionist argument to say we shouldn't farm simply because other animals don't.

No, I just don't like being told I'm wrong when stating my stronger beliefs. It went from a debate I was fine with to you flat out telling me I'm wrong.
So I doubt my own beliefs because I got annoyed about that? You're really, really not very bright. But whatever. I'll 'debate' some more.

It's got nothing to do with copying the animals. It's to do with ethics. Other animals don't farm because they don't have the ability to. We shouldn't because it's wrong. So it's nothing to do with copying. I believe that animals should have the chance to live instead of being stuck in a small area of grass their entire lives, to be dragged away and shot or decapitated or however the particular abbatoir does it before ANY of them get ANY chance to live their whole lives. Entire species of animals imprisoned and butchered. The fact that you're assuming I want to stop farming just to copy other animals proves you haven't listened to anything I've said.

 

[thevillageidiot13]

As a semi-vegetarian, I will say that producing meat is more costly for our environment than producing vegetables. For example, raising a single pound of beef will take the same amount of water that a West African family of four will use in an entire month. It also produces overwhelming amounts of greenhouse gas emissions -- about the same as driving a car at highway speeds for 150 miles.

I'm not sure what the numbers are, but in order to produce a single pound of meat, you need to feed the animal several pounds of vegetables. For example, I'm 135 pounds, but I've eaten way more than that many pounds of food in my lifetime -- producing a pound of food takes several pounds of whatever food *your* food eats. Considering the fact that about a billion people around the World struggle with serious hunger issues, it seems a little unfair that we'll eat a pound of beef when we could just eat a pound of tofu and give the extra food that we saved to starving people overseas.

Also, generally speaking, red meat tends to be bad for your health.

 

[PhiMed]

no idea, but i didnt climb the top of the food chain to eat rabbit food

Bears, sharks, and many more animals can easily kill and eat humans. I don't think we're at the top of the food chain

OT: I don't eat meat and it started with cows, because I can't help but think of cows as huge animals that eat grass all day and remain fat. With that thought, it doesn't make sense for me to put it in my body.

Not if the human is armed, and we can and do eat sharks. In fact, there aren't a whole lot of animals that AREN'T eaten by some society or another. In contrast, there is no animal on earth for which "human" is a staple of their diet. So yeah, we're the top. You can think otherwise, but you'd be in disagreement with, you know, science.

 

[KorLeonis]

no idea, but i didnt climb the top of the food chain to eat rabbit food

Bears, sharks, and many more animals can easily kill and eat humans. I don't think we're at the top of the food chain

OT: I don't eat meat and it started with cows, because I can't help but think of cows as huge animals that eat grass all day and remain fat. With that thought, it doesn't make sense for me to put it in my body.

Not if the human is armed, and we can and do eat sharks. In fact, there aren't a whole lot of animals that AREN'T eaten by some society or another. In contrast, there is no animal on earth for which "human" is a staple of their diet. So yeah, we're the top. You can think otherwise, but you'd be in disagreement with, you know, science.

I dunno about that. Any of the many species of insects and bacteria that feed on decomposing flesh could easily list "human" as a staple of their diet. Once we kick the bucket, we are as much a dinner entree as any cow ever ground up into hamburger.

There is no "food chain", its a big circle that keeps going round and we are all gonna get eaten eventually. Don't make me sing "Circle of Life" from the Lion King at you.

 

[thevillageidiot13]

no idea, but i didnt climb the top of the food chain to eat rabbit food

Bears, sharks, and many more animals can easily kill and eat humans. I don't think we're at the top of the food chain

OT: I don't eat meat and it started with cows, because I can't help but think of cows as huge animals that eat grass all day and remain fat. With that thought, it doesn't make sense for me to put it in my body.

If you do some research, you'll find that the number of sharks that humans kill on a yearly basis drastically outweighs the number of humans that sharks kill in that same amount of time.

 

[PhiMed]

no idea, but i didnt climb the top of the food chain to eat rabbit food

Bears, sharks, and many more animals can easily kill and eat humans. I don't think we're at the top of the food chain

OT: I don't eat meat and it started with cows, because I can't help but think of cows as huge animals that eat grass all day and remain fat. With that thought, it doesn't make sense for me to put it in my body.

Not if the human is armed, and we can and do eat sharks. In fact, there aren't a whole lot of animals that AREN'T eaten by some society or another. In contrast, there is no animal on earth for which "human" is a staple of their diet. So yeah, we're the top. You can think otherwise, but you'd be in disagreement with, you know, science.

I dunno about that. Any of the many species of insects and bacteria that feed on decomposing flesh could easily list "human" as a staple of their diet. Once we kick the bucket, we are as much a dinner entree as any cow ever ground up into hamburger.

Very rarely, if ever, are carrion eaters considered by anyone to be at the top of the food chain. You kind of have to be proactive to scale it.

 

[Treblaine]

Sorry, but the person I was replying to wasn't talking about pest control, the term he used was "being run over by a combine harvester". The distinction I'm making is about regarding animals as property. Pest control doesn't fit into that category since there is still a degree of liberty and the element of ownership or slavery isn't raised at any point. What worries me more is that you interpret "slow deaths from poisoning, wounded by gunshot and starvation" as giving you carte blanche to eat meat rather than calling for more humane treatment. I'm not going to lie, I don't know a lot about pest control techniques, but I know that cows sure as fuck are tortured for meat. Here's a link to a lovely site whose videos I barely have the stomach to watch:
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations.aspx

"What worries me more is that you interpret "slow deaths from poisoning, wounded by gunshot and starvation" as giving you carte blanche to eat meat rather than calling for more humane treatment."

Straw man argument.
You are dodging the issue that avoiding the eating of animal products avoids animals dying for your food. I'm pointing out that your reasoning is flawed due to ignorance of actual farming practices. To live a life where you are not even indirectly responsible for animals dying is unsustainable but for a tiny privileged part of the population.

I eat meat not because animals are killed even in the growing of crops. I eat meat because I like eating it and I have a sense of proportion and distinction when it comes to the value of life, not flat absolutes like 'all life is equal'.

Slavery. Animals. Give me a break. You try leaving gates open in the countryside and you will get animals and people killed as cows wander into traffic.

I find it intellectually dishonest that you would compare animal husbandry to slavery. No cow has ever stood up the address the legislature that "Are we not men, and your brothers?", please you show your ignorance of history and abuse of peoples' perceptions.

Looking beyond you giving me such a biased and un-reputable source as mercyforanimals.com this doesn't change the fact that these practices are both the exception and illegal but more than that unnecessary to the actual business of meat production. No reason to ban meat industry.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Wow man, so you're equating unintentionally running over small animals with a combine harvester

The harvesting is fully intended and as we understand it will be an inevitable bloodbath as we go into it I see nothing unintentional about it. It is called a calculated risk and apparently we come out fine with the risk every time. veg*ns included.

but have a heart. Can you really not make that distinction?

Why is the careless murder of 100's of small animals less worse than my calculated killing of a single one for the same reasons? (to provide me with food)

It doesnt fly and you know it. To cut it in short

Vegan diet = 100's of animals suffered and died.
Carnivore diet on freerange grass fed = 1 animal die.

yet somehow you want to paint me as less compasionate?! WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW THE FRIGGIN VEG*N ETHICAL EQUATION WORKS?!

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

I will say that producing meat is more costly for our environment than producing vegetables. For example, raising a single pound of beef will take the same amount of water that a West African family of four will use in an entire month. It also produces overwhelming amounts of greenhouse gas emissions -- about the same as driving a car at highway speeds for 150 miles.

I wish these lies would just lay down and die allready.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Did you not get the message where I answered this the first time, here you go.

"Why didn't you mention any of the people killed in farming accidents, I mean it's a pretty dangerous profession and you're bound to pluck on a few of my heart strings if you pull out that little chestnut.

This answers nothing. it is ok that small animals dies in scores because a few people also die? It is bad that both humans and animals die in farming accidents?

You and I are powerful animals and we are bound to cause a certain amount of damage to those around us just by walking around, that's basically impossible to avoid as much as I do hate to admit it but it is our responsibility not to cause harm or unnecessary death on purpose.

And as I told you. Then your dietary choice makes no sense at all.

In case that's to subtle for you the jist is that killing animals on purpose isn't the same as them dying in accidents that a lot of people try pretty hard to avoid.

it is called a calculated risk. you understand that a lot of small animals may die, but you still harvest, even if you have food avialable that only requires a single or a few animals to die for your sake. Come off it allready.

 

[psyks]

Wow man, so you're equating unintentionally running over small animals with a combine harvester

The harvesting is fully intended and as we understand it will be an inevitable bloodbath as we go into it I see nothing unintentional about it. It is called a calculated risk and apparently we come out fine with the risk every time. veg*ns included.

but have a heart. Can you really not make that distinction?

Why is the careless murder of 100's of small animals less worse than my calculated killing of a single one for the same reasons? (to provide me with food)

It doesnt fly and you know it. To cut it in short

Vegan diet = 100's of animals suffered and died.
Carnivore diet on freerange grass fed = 1 animal die.

yet somehow you want to paint me as less compasionate?! WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW THE FRIGGIN VEG*N ETHICAL EQUATION WORKS?!

Yeah, because you just eat one cow a year and nothing else.

 

[minimacker]

Yes, but a lot of what humans can eat is simply due to the fact that we take time to cook our food. We really couldn't eat many greens otherwise. Our bodies aren't built for it as a main/only source of nutrition (raw of course).

It's really only detrimental nowadays though, because we have to mass produce it, and that is costly and dirty. Seeing it from say, an old fashioned hunter-gatherer society, and things change quite a bit there.

Human's aren't biologically designed to eat meat. Our saliva has been evolving over time to become more acidic to break down meat but it is nowhere nearly as effective as the saliva that carnivore's have. Our intestines are also the same as herbivores and considerably much larger than a normal carnivores. Also our so called "canine teeth" are also the same teeth shared by plant eaters such as primates. We do not have the same sharp teeth that a carnivore would have, such as the frontal teeth of a lion or wolf.

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

We're omnivores. We have long intestines to be able to break down the cellulars of plants. Yet we have a large stomach that can expand just like carnivores.

If we were herbivores, then we wouldn't be able to break down meat. If we were carnivores, we wouldn't be able to break down plants.

Humans have a very weak resistance to poisonous plants.

We're average at both. Best at neither.

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

Yeah, because you just eat one cow a year and nothing else.

I also eat eggs but nobody died for those. And my raw cream...no victims since its a natural farm. Cows arent kept pragnant, but when they are, I get to share dinner with my comming dinner. my cheeses...hmmm...yeah well actually another cow probably suffered for that.

What I eat outside of this is in such small amounts and so rarely that it is statistically insignifigant. I would eat more other animals if I had access to them. In which case I wouldnt eat a whole cow a year. I would like some chicken, but I havent found a place I want to buy from that doesnt charge 50$ for a chicken. I dont care what its fed or if Jesus himself fed it. Im not paying that for a chicken.

Now kindly some veg*an please answer my straight forward question. How does the veg*n ethical equation work? pound for pound, animal for animal?

 

[Homo Carnivorous]

If we were carnivores, we wouldn't be able to break down plants.

coincidentally we arent. Most of it pass right through you. you get some calories in the shape of simple sugars and some vitamins and minerals but most of the plant comes right out of you in pretty much the same state it came in. Apparently this means you have better shits....