Well, all I know is it's not my job or anyone else's job in moderation to make you all "better people" as a former mod once said. Still can't believe they thought that was their job. Noble in thought, but you have to be on the highest of horses to think anyone's gonna be receptive to that.Not that it is needed all that much given everything you've said but I probably would have stuck around as a Moderator had you been the one to show up first (nothing personal against Kyle but his ideas really...clashed for lack of a better word with what I thought moderation should be in my mind).
I know not everyone agrees with how I handled Mod stuff back in my day because I always felt like Mod things should be out in the open for all to see and comment on and not everyone appreciated that mindset (which to be fair to the mods at the time, there was a LOT more hostility towards Mods back in V1 I feel like; but my job in real life is Quality Assurance so my job in real life is being a Mod to the company so I've learned how to handle hostility for you doing your job).
It's great to see that you embrace the same mindset as I did, something I feel that Old Escapist always kind of sorely lacked.
Thanks! Concerning moderation itt specifically, its good to see it not get nuked instantly.Fair enough.
I've nothing more to add on this discussion then. I have no personal agenda against Houseman other than his conduct here in the forums and the mod team and I came to the conclusion he was not acting in good faith. If someone is making us and the community feel that way, all I can say is maybe that requires some introspection. But that's just me.
As far as I'm aware, the community at large has no major issues with the moderation. Ya'll want to discuss it go right ahead.
I don't get it.
You're praising Saelune and condemning Houseman for toxicity in the same post. Saelune told people to go kill themselves, mocked one person's dead family member, started numerous callout threads and drove at least two people to leave the forum. Her reign of terror in the Wild West forum was truly something to behold.Look, Saelune is a kindred spirit who fought for the same principles I do. Our methods varied, but our same goal was the equal representation for all genders, races, sexualities, and ideologies.
Saelune was being fought, mocked, and targeted. And Saelune and a few others like Lil Devils and I fought side by side. Eventually, the ban hammer did fall, because Saelune refused to kowtow and fought back with everything possible.
And the hammer fell infinitely quicker than Houseman or Iron or others who were blatantly aggressive and spreading (ironically) fake news through this site. Personally, I am not a moderator, I didn't swear to uphold what is necessary to keep this peace in these forums. I thank the moderators who do that. I think Saelune could possibly be unbanned without those who did everything to make the situation untenable, but that is not exactly what this conversation is about. The fact that Saelune didn't make a video complaining about the Moderator's treatment also speaks volumes.
I'm sure certain parties will want to make the situation about how they were aggrieved unjustly. If the moderators or Nick wanted, I'm sure they could provide receipts and chances given to Houseman (as they could for Saelune, most likely), which would disprove said theories. However, I think we should make it about something else.
The forum feels better without his toxicity. Read: I didn't say his views. I said his toxicity. It has nothing to do with being conservative or pro-police. Spector Von Baren, Dwarvenhobble, Gorfias and others on this forum have conservative views. They express them in ways that even don't come close to the toxicity of Houseman. I WANT differing views. I want constructive conversations with people I don't see eye to eye with. Because I might not see eye to eye, but there might be a bridge that is formed that we can get to a more tolerant place.
Houseman never tried for tolerance. Is any of that in the vid? Or is he just, again, unjust aggrieved? And we should feel bad because his freedom of speech which only pertains to Governmental Expression and not in any way means he can go to a private company/business and do whatever he wants... was still upheld because once again, Freedom of Speech only pertains to speaking out against the government or in public save for a few things that were deemed a danger to the public.
Actually, I said Saelune was a kindred spirit who fought for the same ideals and that our methods varied.You're praising Saelune and condemning Houseman for toxicity in the same post. Saelune told people to go kill themselves, mocked one person's dead family member, started numerous callout threads and drove at least two people to leave the forum. Her reign of terror in the Wild West forum was truly something to behold.
As far I'm aware, Houseman didn't do anything like that.
Saelune did not lie, gaslight or troll. Instead she was honest and consistent the whole time and tried to argue in good faithYou're praising Saelune and condemning Houseman for toxicity in the same post. Saelune told people to go kill themselves, mocked one person's dead family member, started numerous callout threads and drove at least two people to leave the forum. Her reign of terror in the Wild West forum was truly something to behold.
As far I'm aware, Houseman didn't do anything like that.
Never went to the Wild West forum. Always sounded like the sort of cesspit that was never going to create much joy in the world.I never had access to the Wild west forum but the idea was to not import vendettas from the old forum over here.
The examples I gave came from the V1 forum, but Saelune has been banned from the V2 forum as well. So it seems likely the bad behaviour continued. Unless she requested a ban, that could be possible.or,
Actually, I said Saelune was a kindred spirit who fought for the same ideals and that our methods varied.
I also said that Nick and Moderators could provide receipts on how many chances they gave both Houseman and Saelune.
I also mentioned that Saelune was targeted a great deal by members of this forum, and Saelune fought back. Sometimes, it was preemptively.
If this matter is just going to be about how you personally feel about Saelune and not read what I'm saying, that's fine. But then the conversation is over before it even begun.
Saelune mainly posted in Biden's confirmation thread. If what you're saying is there, there's only 132 posts. I did a search for Saelune's name and Kill, and die. Nothing came up. I did a search for your name and kill, and your last post came up. So... Ok.
I'll even allow that Saelune did that in v1. I don't have a complete mental record of all the post that happened there. But even if that is the case... that's forum's v1. This is v2.
More importantly, say if Saelune said that. It's not good. Something I wouldn't do. I admit that. I don't know if it occurred, but that's neither here nor there for this situation.
Comparing that to the level of toxicity that grew dissention in America to the level of January 6th is really no true comparison. One earns a "Damn, uncalled for" and the other gets the FBI looking through our forums to see if we're housing (I didn't even mean for that pun) dissenters.
I really liked the Wild West forum. It was nice to be able to have conversations without the passive aggressiveness that was pervasive in the rest of the forum, particularly Religion and Politics. At times on the Escapist it seemed there were groups deliberately stalking members with high warning counts, like a pack of wolves going after wounded prey. That wasn't a factor in the Wild West forum. I also felt it helped to clear the air, and I revised my opinion of a few people after seeing them post there for a while.Never went to the Wild West forum. Always sounded like the sort of cesspit that was never going to create much joy in the world.
Oh to have the optimism that a functionally non-moderated space on the Internet was going to be a bastion of classy discourse. Blind fuckin' Pew could have seen that entire sub-forum was going to be fucking Chernobyl within a week.I really liked the Wild West forum. It was nice to be able to have conversations without the passive aggressiveness that was pervasive in the rest of the forum, particularly Religion and Politics. At times on the Escapist it seemed there were groups deliberately stalking members with high warning counts, like a pack of wolves going after wounded prey. That wasn't a factor in the Wild West forum. I also felt it helped to clear the air, and I revised my opinion of a few people after seeing them post there for a while.
The problem was that there were a bunch of people opposed to the Wild West forum who decided to intentionally make it as toxic as possible to get it deleted.
It was a popular forum so obviously it must have held some appeal for a lot of people. If I remember rightly in terms of posts it was verging on beating the main forum.Oh to have the optimism that a functionally non-moderated space on the Internet was going to be a bastion of classy discourse. Blind fuckin' Pew could have seen that entire sub-forum was going to be fucking Chernobyl within a week.
Yeah because it was Grand Theft Auto in forum form. And as the sales of that long lost to edgefest bullshit game series have proven, when given the opportunity to misbehave in a virtually consequence free environment people will go from Zero to Cartmen in less than five seconds.It was a popular forum so obviously it must have held some appeal for a lot of people. If I remember rightly in terms of posts it was verging on beating the main forum.
It's like Godwin's law except with fascism being endorsed rather than mentioned.Yeah because it was Grand Theft Auto in forum form. And as the sales of that long lost to edgefest bullshit game series have proven, when given the opportunity to misbehave in a virtually consequence free environment people will go from Zero to Cartmen in less than five seconds.
I beg your pardon?It's like Godwin's law except with fascism being endorsed rather than mentioned.