[VID] The Escapist forums moderation is wildly inconsistent (now with data!)

[09philj]

I beg your pardon?

Godwin's law is that when you have an online argument, the chances of someone comparing their opponent to a fascist approaches 1 over time.
I think as a corollary to that if you have an unmoderated online space the chances of someone endorsing fascism approaches 1 over time.

 

[fOx]

Oh to have the optimism that a functionally non-moderated space on the Internet was going to be a bastion of classy discourse. Blind fuckin' Pew could have seen that entire sub-forum was going to be fucking Chernobyl within a week.

I mean, the regulars were fine. The most toxic people were the ones who wanted it gone in the first place, like saelune. So they tried to prove their own point by being as toxic as possible. Meanwhile, R&P was, at the time, the most toxic forum I'd ever seen, with or without moderation.

I've come to conclude that moderation is actually less effective then creating a positive culture. Something the current mods seem to undersrand.

 

[tippy2k2]

I mean, the regulars were fine. The most toxic people were the ones who wanted it gone in the first place, like saelune. So they tried to prove their own point by being as toxic as possible. Meanwhile, R&P was, at the time, the most toxic forum I'd ever seen, with or without moderation.

I've come to conclude that moderation is actually less effective then creating a positive culture. Something the current mods seem to understand.

Everyone has their own thoughts on WW but that was always my thoughts on it (and why as a Mod when it was literally The Wild West in this place and we had no owners or people in charge, I commonly argued to keep it open with the other Mods as many wanted The WW shut down).

For the most part, the only people who really made the place bad was The User Who Shalt Not Be Named who just went out of their way to try to fuck up everything they could cause they wanted to play Rule Lawyer and say it's OK cause it's not against the rules and Bad Faith People who wanted WW to be shut down because it was such a toxic cesspool and wanted to prove how toxic of a cesspool it was by going in and being as toxic as they possibly could. The "Regulars" for the most part were pretty laid back and just wanted to call their friends Assface's without getting in trouble

 

[BrawlMan]

This is why Houseman is a complete joke and no one respects him.​

 

[RiseofDaWolfie]

Well, he does have a nice speaking voice. Kind of Captain Holt from Brooklyn 99 meets William Shatner. But that music, oh my God, that music made me more angry than anything in the video.

Anyway, I'm going to be the guy who says it, do we really need another Houseman thread? We already have one that sits at 12 pages, couldn't they be merged?

For reasons already listed I was holding back joining the conversation properly but this seems like a good time to jump in and justify this threads existence from my POV.

I did fly over the Houseman thread briefly but it was obviously about Houseman primarily and moderation second. My perhaps rather naive hope was that this thread could be more about the moderation, the point of interest for me personally not being whether Housemans ban specifically was justified or not, but stuff like some users amassing 6 warnings and still posting while others are banned after 1 or 2 or 3, all while the rules promise something completely different. (There could be good reasons for this - I still don't know them if they exist.) Of course it didn't happen, and the majority of the posts were again about Houseman/accusing me of being Houseman (I do get why it would look that way initially)/mocking me. Thats a shame, especially since Houseman at least seemed to make an effort to remain objective in his video.

Continuing with my impressions of the forums (which basically just means a comparison to V1), on the negative side, the level of passive aggressiveness and dogpiling seems way higher which really is saying something. In my opinion thats indicative of lacklustre moderation/a bad ruleset, but again, if this has become a little community with its niche with members who don't like it having left already or staying away, why bother shaking things up, and you're not obligated to change it for some guy who hasn't been here for literal years.

On the positive side I'm very surprised this thread was even left up. On V1 it would have been locked after 20 minutes probably, so major props for that. Stifling these kinds of discussions was a major issue on V1 and thats a massive improvement.

Thats basically all I have to say. My enterily unsolicited advice is to look into major changes to rules and moderation if the aim is to have this forum grow again, but if thats not the case - fair enough, enjoy what you have

 

[Nick Calandra]

Look, I don't condone dogpiling...but it's kinda hard to not mock someone that made a 30 MINUTE video on being banned from an online forum...not to mention someone like Houseman who constantly skirted the lines of the rules and did very specific things that he knew wouldn't sit well with the moderators via something like the avatar incident that was basically provoking the mod team to act and he knew it. So sorry, but he's far from objective in his video and portraying himself as a victim of an unjust ban.

Second off, you created a brand new account JUST to post that video and get reactions to it which I can bet you're taking right back to Houseman to fill him in on what's being talked about here. If you didn't think people were going to raise questions about that, that's your fault lol. You brought the video in, you created the account and made that your first post, I'm not sure what you were expecting to happen there.

Lastly, you're pointing out to lackluster moderation...but the only people that seem to have much of an issue with moderation is the people that are banned, and if we're giving out SIX warnings to people and still letting them stay, that to me says we're pretty forgiving with folk and are MORE than fair with how we ban people.

There's a bunch of people here that fundamentally disagree with one another, get in arguments all the time, and still remain respectful and engage in good faith that haven't been banned. So again, maybe it's on those people that have been banned to maybe figure it out that THEY were the problem, not the community and not the mods.

The forum doesn't need to grow to astronomical numbers. Numbers don't matter, people do and I'd rather have a smaller, friendlier community than deal with constant toxicity all the time.

 

[RiseofDaWolfie]

Look, I don't condone dogpiling...but it's kinda hard to not mock someone that made a 30 MINUTE video on being banned from an online forum...not to mention someone like Houseman who constantly skirted the lines of the rules and did very specific things that he knew wouldn't sit well with the moderators via something like the avatar incident that was basically provoking the mod team to act and he knew it. So sorry, but he's far from objective in his video and portraying himself as a victim of an unjust ban.

Second off, you created a brand new account JUST to post that video and get reactions to it which I can bet you're taking right back to Houseman to fill him in on what's being talked about here. If you didn't think people were going to raise questions about that, that's your fault lol. You brought the video in, you created the account and made that your first post, I'm not sure what you were expecting to happen there.

Lastly, you're pointing out to lackluster moderation...but the only people that seem to have much of an issue with moderation is the people that are banned, and if we're giving out SIX warnings to people and still letting them stay, that to me says we're pretty forgiving with folk and are MORE than fair with how we ban people.

There's a bunch of people here that fundamentally disagree with one another, get in arguments all the time, and still remain respectful and engage in good faith that haven't been banned. So again, maybe it's on those people that have been banned to maybe figure it out that THEY were the problem, not the community and not the mods.

The forum doesn't need to grow to astronomical numbers. Numbers don't matter, people do and I'd rather have a smaller, friendlier community than deal with constant toxicity all the time.

I did say mocking me, not mocking Houseman. But its whatever, I can handle it, and I get that theres a backstory etc etc

I've already explained my reasons for making this account and the thread. With respect - you don't need to attribute fault or make any bets. I'm being genuine here. Of course I wasn't expecting absolutely zero Houseman talk, but I was expecting more posts discussing the video rather than its author.

The last point I just don't understand. Of course the massive majority of people here have no issue with moderation, thats bordering on a tautology - anyone who did is banned or gave up and left. I'm giving the view of someone considering joining or rejoining the forums. Whether you like it or not, Housemans video is out there now and the failings of the "old regime" are known, just pointing to the 100 semi-frequent users you have left doesn't prove or disprove anything, especially when you used to have more.

It boils down to this: moderation here may be absolutely flawless, previously banned users may be completely at fault, the warnings system may not be inherently broken or simply not applied practically, and the community may be lovely, but from the outside looking in it doesn't look like it. If this forum wants more users it would be good for the window view to change. If the forum doesn't want more users - again, fair enough - you're free to ignore the messenger without shooting him.

And PS, as far as I know this forum is still viewable without an account, so I don't need to carry anything back to Houseman. Either he's reading along here with us or not.

 

[BrawlMan]

Thats a shame, especially since Houseman at least seemed to make an effort to remain objective in his video.

Remain objective my ass. Why you wanna waste your sympathies or time on him, I do not know and is not worth the effort. Your choice anyway waste time on dead weight.

 

[Baffle]

This is why you need hobbies, people. Not this hobby, a different one.

 

[PointlessKnowledge]

For the most part, the only people who really made the place bad was The User Who Shalt Not Be Named who just went out of their way to try to fuck up everything they could cause they wanted to play Rule Lawyer and say it's OK cause it's not against the rules and Bad Faith People who wanted WW to be shut down because it was such a toxic cesspool and wanted to prove how toxic of a cesspool it was by going in and being as toxic as they possibly could. The "Regulars" for the most part were pretty laid back and just wanted to call their friends Assface's without getting in trouble

It was pretty easy to deal with the people trying to make WW a more toxic place by just not going to their toxic threads. I will never understand why people enter every thread, even when they have no knowledge or interest in the topic being discussed.

 

[tippy2k2]

It was pretty easy to deal with the people trying to make WW a more toxic place by just not going to their toxic threads. I will never understand why people enter every thread, even when they have no knowledge or interest in the topic being discussed.

Hey, that's my strategy for talking with Houseman; don't.

Why so many people have trouble with the "ignore the shitty people" strategy will always remain a mystery to me...

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Here is a video a friend made...

False, Houseman is a loser that doesn't have any friends.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Look, Saelune is a kindred spirit who fought for the same principles I do. Our methods varied, but our same goal was the equal representation for all genders, races, sexualities, and ideologies.

Saelune was being fought, mocked, and targeted. And Saelune and a few others like Lil Devils and I fought side by side. Eventually, the ban hammer did fall, because Saelune refused to kowtow and fought back with everything possible.

I think the fact that you, Saelune and Lil Devils see a discussion on a video game forum as a "fight" might be a problem with your attitudes.

 

[RiseofDaWolfie]

False, Houseman is a loser that doesn't have any friends.

Well, I'm happy to call him one at least. But tbf, I didn't read many of his posts here.

 

[Neuromancer]

Hey Rise, how's the eco-fascism going?

 

[Neuromancer]

Look, Saelune is a kindred spirit who fought for the same principles I do. Our methods varied, but our same goal was the equal representation for all genders, races, sexualities, and ideologies.

Saelune was being fought, mocked, and targeted. And Saelune and a few others like Lil Devils and I fought side by side. Eventually, the ban hammer did fall, because Saelune refused to kowtow and fought back with everything possible.

Angryposting in some forum or reddit isn't fighting for anything. You can find keyboard warriors anywhere. Real fighting is demonstrating and organizing, something that I know for a fact Saelune didn't do.

 

[RiseofDaWolfie]

Hey Rise, how's the eco-fascism going?

Its not going at all currently.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I think the fact that you, Saelune and Lil Devils see a discussion on a video game forum as a "fight" might be a problem with your attitudes.

Tempting, but it's a turn of a phrase that you're giving a little more focus than deserved.

If I meant fight like that, I wouldn't have blocked Iron, Houseman, and others. Because fighting need two parties.

If you ever saw me post in a 'fighting' way, I'd be interested in seeing it. Because an actual fight to me is someone who hurls insults, tries to denigrate someone else, and is attempting to damage the other side.

If the phrase "stood with on similar issues" are more palpable to you, feel free to substitute it. It is the same intention of what I meant.

Also, feel free to continue to think that I have an attitude that runs contrary to what you think is warranted or acceptable. I'm fine with either, actually.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Well, I'm happy to call him one at least. But tbf, I didn't read many of his posts here.

I feel like the second sentence explains the first.

 

[Avnger]

So I just took a timeskipping scan through the video and here's my thoughts:

1. I didn't get mentioned

2. Houseman really seems to believe he's some pure, logically-driven, objective analyst which is both hilarious and a bit sad.

3. His arguments still rely on purposely misrepresenting events to fit pre-determined notions. See the video claims that Yoshi was banned for no reason despite it being well-known and publicly acknowledged that it was Yoshi harassing Nick on Nick's personal social media page that led to it.

4. Production quality was surprisingly mediocre? I had honestly expected something laughably bad, but it would fit right in with the cottage industry of alt-right youtubers like Sargon (is he still a thing?).