Video games can't do horror.

[ninjaRiv]

Did they intentionally try to put their biggest horror elements into these vents? I'm asking because I don't know. But even still, this point doesn't really make sense. The protagonist can't die halfway through a film, right? So you know they're safe until at least the end. Obviously, they can die. Just like they can die in video games. But a new protagonist has to take over.

Biggest elements? Not really. Like, there were Necromorphs in the vents with you sometimes, but always just out of sight. They never threatened you in any way that mattered, although they tried very hard to make it seem like they would.

It seems your entire argument is based on the protagonists survival, right? I'm sorry but I think your argument is incredibly flawed.

Even if the protagonist dies, it's irrelevant because the narrative continues. Even if you're given a new avatar to play with, nothing has fundamentally changed about the game. Resident Evil: Outbreak for example. One of the characters was a Security Guard with a handgun. He could be killed at any time during the game and when he died, you played as someone else. Even if the next person had no weapons to defend themselves, changing the dynamic of the game...the game has not changed. You still know about the different types of zombies, how they work, what they do. You do not fear an ambush by a Licker, because you know how to deal with it from your past experiences.

For a movie...the protagonist can simply be made to putz around for the duration, right up until their untimely demise (whether it's death or otherwise) and have not learned anything. They don't know what the nature of the monster is, or what it's capabilities are. Where it came from. Nothing. That can't fly in a video game. I mentioned it previously, but Amensia serves as a decent example of htis. You're learn what the monsters are capable of, where they came from, who Alexander is, and even what Daniel was. There is no mystery or sense of the unknown. You're superior to the monsters because you can outwit and escape them. In a book or movie, that's not a guaranteed possibility. It's entirely possible for the entire cast to meet their end after their first or second encounter with the antagonist(s) because it is simply better. In a video game, those roles are reversed. There aren't many people who would want a game where you're killed, go irreparably insane, or whatever else on your first encounter with whatever the antagonist is, yeah?

Let me put it this way. What is it that makes a game scary, what turns it into horror?

So you're saying movies and books can pull it off because the protagonist is dumb and can be made to never have to mental capacity to figure out how to deal with these things? Anyway, if the cast in the movie is killed off in the first or second half and replaced by people who have no idea what the fuck is up, isn't that just bad story telling?

It's perfectly possible for video games to do the same thing by introducing brand new enemies halfway through to go with your fresh new heroes but they do it about as often as movies and books kill of their heroes half way through.

The point I wanted to get across is that relying on a protagonist to create horror isn't horror. It's actually a terrible mechanic in all forms of story telling.

I see what you're saying, though. I think. You're saying that hopelessness is the main part of horror. or rather, the uncertainty. I just don't think that should rest on the protagonist's shoulders.

What makes a video game scary? For me, it would have to be the monsters, the limited amount of resources to deal with them, the atmosphere the protagonist's reactions and not knowing what could be waiting around the corner.

Films and books use these exact same ideas in different ways but they're basically the same. The horror does come less from the protagonist in games than it would in other forms of entertainment but it's all still there.

 

[Jimmy T. Malice]

The unknown is scary. Dark Souls captures that perfectly, as you'll be dreading what horror may be around the corner not only because of the tension but also because you'll be booted back to your last bonfire if you die. I dreaded every new zone in Dark Souls as I waited to see what twisted punishment the developers had come up with.

Foreboding messages from other players, while giving you a hint of what's to come, also increase tension. The first time I saw Solaire, I read a player message that said 'Saint ahead', which I had seen near the Black Knight in the Burg before, so I was scared to approach him because I didn't know what he might be.

"Good luck"

 

[ninjaRiv]

No matter how powerful an enemy or obstacle seems, it is not insurmountable. You can overcome it. You are inherently better than it, simply because you can defeat it without exception.

Perhaps you don't understand how fear works.

I'm terrified of spiders. I'll run a mile if one comes near me. But I'm pretty certain that physically I can overcome the threat. That spider doesn't terrify me because it can overpower me. It terrifies me for reasons I can't adequately quantify... that is what makes it so scary for me.

Silent Hill did this best. The environment was just repulsive and disturbing. It was nothing to do with scripted events or jump scares, just being in that world was horror enough for me.

Also: The threat that is least seen is quite possibly the most effective. What is it? Where has it gone? Is it hostile? Can it kill me? Why does it LOOK like that? Are questions that Silent Hill makes me ask myself on a regular basis. Dead Space however, well it's business as usual. Necromorphs are twisted humans re-purposed to kill and they all want to eat your face. Yawn.

Recent horror games have all failed, especially Dead Space, because they don't seem to understand this basic premise.

Can we pretend I said this? Because it's really smart and valid and I want to be smart...

 

[Lumipon]

No matter how powerful an enemy or obstacle seems, it is not insurmountable. You can overcome it. You are inherently better than it, simply because you can defeat it without exception.

Now, I want to know if anyone agrees with this viewpoint. That if you absolutely cannot fail given the mechanics of a game, then true horror cannot exist. If not, why not?

Winning is not an absolute in a horror game (or any game, for that matter). Because you might not want to finish it. Case in point: I was too afraid to finish Amnesia: The Dark Descent. I got to the dungeons, encountered a monster, panicked like a little kid and never played the game again.

I played the game wanting to be scared, but it was too much.

Amnesia 1, Lumipon, 0.

The same almost happened with black headcrabs in HL2. Dear God, I hate black headcrabs...

 

[Kopikatsu]

So you're saying movies and books can pull it off because the protagonist is dumb and can be made to never have to mental capacity to figure out how to deal with these things? Anyway, if the cast in the movie is killed off in the first or second half and replaced by people who have no idea what the fuck is up, isn't that just bad story telling?

It has nothing to do with the protagonist's mental capacity. If there are no conveniently left notes detailing exactly what the threat is, and the threat is so otherworldy that it's true form cannot be comprehended...well...what exactly are they supposed to do about it? It doesn't necessarily need to have a total party wipe early on, either. Example, eight people who get picked off one by one.

It's perfectly possible for video games to do the same thing by introducing brand new enemies halfway through to go with your fresh new heroes but they do it about as often as movies and books kill of their heroes half way through.

I don't really agree. New enemies only last about as long as the old ones before you break them down. Actually, it takes less time because you've started to get a handle on the nature of the threat by that time. Just to name an example off the top of my head, Guardians in Dead Space. Comes semi-late in the game and are very rare, but you know it's nature and the extent of what it's capable of. Disturbing on the first encounter, but after that, any tension that comes from encountering one is gone. Same with Pyramid Head in Silent Hill. Watching him rape one of the monsters is preeeeetty disturbing, but once you learn that he's terribly slow...the fact that he's an invulnerable insta-killing abomination isn't really a threat anymore. Even when you're trapped in a small space with him with no way out, surviving long enough means that you win the encounter. Pyramid Head cannot be beaten...but you manage to do it anyway.

The point I wanted to get across is that relying on a protagonist to create horror isn't horror. It's actually a terrible mechanic in all forms of story telling.

I see what you're saying, though. I think. You're saying that hopelessness is the main part of horror. or rather, the uncertainty. I just don't think that should rest on the protagonist's shoulders.

How so? If hopelessness doesn't come from the protagonist, then where can it come from? Should it be like Superman 64, where the protagonist is a demi-god, but the threat comes from harming those around them?

 

[JDLY]

Edit 2: I'll put it this way. The way I hear people describe their 'ideal' horror game on the Escapist, is that they basically want Amensia reskinned as X, because they like to feel 'helpless' in the face of monsters or whatever. The point that I'm trying to make is that you aren't helpless. In a video game, you can never be helpless. The fact that you can survive to the conclusion of the game means that every encounter between those two points can/will be surmounted. It's not the fact that failure is scary so much as...even when you're supposedly 'helpless', you're still incredibly powerful. Whether it's because you're stronger, smarter, faster, etc than the adversaries. No matter how helpless you appear to be, you never are.

Please excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but I haven't read through all 3 pages so I don't know.

What I see here isn't as much a video game issue, but an immersion issue. To put it bluntly, it's not the game's fault, it's yours. Though this may not be intentional.

The way it seems to me is that, to you, a game can't be true horror because, somewhere at the back of your mind, you keep telling yourself that it's simply a game.

Were a monster to find and attack you, it seems your thoughts would be along the line of "Well if he kills me I'll simply restart at my last save and continue on." However most people, when immersed in the game, have, in a way, turned off that part of their mind. They are not playing the game, they are living it. So the threat of losing their lives triggers real horror. True it would be nowhere near the amount of horror were their real lives threatened. But just because it's less horror, doesn't mean it's not still horror.

 

[Not Lord Atkin]

You're making an interesting point, however, I'd like to remind you of one very special moment from Silent Hill 2, a game that just got survival horror right. and no, I'm not just saying this because Yahtzee did.

I'm also venturing into spoiler territory here so if you haven't played silent hill yet, consider yourself warned:

Spoiler

About an hour into the game the game, you got into a block of apartment buildings. It was dark and claustrophobic inside, however, it felt much safer than the streets outside because once you've cleared the area, monsters wouldn't reappear until you left it again. It turned into a little exploration adventure and puzzle game, monsters started to feel less threatening because by that time you would have figured out a strategy to deal with them. You found a flashlight, even a handgun and for a moment there, you would feel unstoppable. There was a corridor leading to the other half of the building that was cut off by a set of rusty pipes arranged like bars of a cage. You knew you were supposed to get to the other side of the corridor to progress. You eventually found a way in, collected all the pieces of the puzzle and were on your way to the place when you were able to cross. You were pretty happy and relaxed by that point because the game wasn't so scary anymore. Well the game created a false sense of security there. what it did next was to make you walk past the pipe barricade. And there he was, in his first appearance ever, a guy with a pyramid for a head, dragging a huge fuck off knife with him. Just standing there, doing nothing. As if to say: oh, you wanted to get to the other side of the bars, didn't you? now guess what, I'm here and you'll eventually going to have to deal with me. Are you sure you still want to cross?

That was a stroke of genius. It made me question whether I should leave my relative safe zone and venture into a new, unknown area where a this huge monstrosity is waiting for me or just turn the game off and never play it again.

Also, the actual encounter is something to mention. you were supposed to fight the Pyramid Head off within a space of 2x2 metres. your pistol seemed to do no damage at all and he was quite capable of killing you. Oh yes, you knew you had to survive it to continue the game but the game itself was out there to kill you and you actually had to work for your survival.

A much better counterargument than this, however, would be the (first) death of Maria and the subsequent mindfuck when you found her in that cell, alive and well. You said that you never feel threatened because you can't really get killed in order for the story to progress. Well guess what. Other characters can. Just like in horror films, when the main character wouldn't die up until the very end, this is basically the same thing with a slight change of perspective. If the supporting cast is characterised well enough, a good horror game can make you care about them just as much as you care about the protagonist. And then it will start picking them off one by one.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

The unknown is scary. Dark Souls captures that perfectly, as you'll be dreading what horror may be around the corner not only because of the tension but also because you'll be booted back to your last bonfire if you die. I dreaded every new zone in Dark Souls as I waited to see what twisted punishment the developers had come up with.

Foreboding messages from other players, while giving you a hint of what's to come, also increase tension. The first time I saw Solaire, I read a player message that said 'Saint ahead', which I had seen near the Black Knight in the Burg before, so I was scared to approach him because I didn't know what he might be.

"Good luck"

I have never played Dark/Demon Souls but this is a good point to add to the discussion. That said, I don't personally consider my in-game character's death to be part of the horror. In Silent Hill, if your character dies that's the end, it's over and they are actually released from the horror (except for Heather.) For the player however, this poses only a mild inconvenience whereupon they are forced to replay an undefined amount of the game, possibly repeatedly. In this situation there is no actual threat to the player, although frustration may cause breakages of certain nearby digital devices!

I am of the opinion that the best horror is one you share with the game character. You are one and the same, extensions of one another, both sharing the same experiences. Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a character in a horror game. When you are so powerfully connected to a character within the game, their experiences become your own and that mental breakdown that's bubbling so close to the surface? Yeah, that could just as easily be your fate as well.

I was about to write an epic essay about why Silent Hill 2 is the best game ever right here... then I realised that everyone's heard it all before and I stopped myself. Oh, and I am fully aware that dying repeatedly is part of the Dark/Demon Souls experience, perhaps it was a bad example for my rant!

Can we pretend I said this? Because it's really smart and valid and I want to be smart...

Why thank you! ^_^

 

[ninjaRiv]

So you're saying movies and books can pull it off because the protagonist is dumb and can be made to never have to mental capacity to figure out how to deal with these things? Anyway, if the cast in the movie is killed off in the first or second half and replaced by people who have no idea what the fuck is up, isn't that just bad story telling?

It has nothing to do with the protagonist's mental capacity. If there are no conveniently left notes detailing exactly what the threat is, and the threat is so otherworldy that it's true form cannot be comprehended...well...what exactly are they supposed to do about it? It doesn't necessarily need to have a total party wipe early on, either. Example, eight people who get picked off one by one.

It's perfectly possible for video games to do the same thing by introducing brand new enemies halfway through to go with your fresh new heroes but they do it about as often as movies and books kill of their heroes half way through.

I don't really agree. New enemies only last about as long as the old ones before you break them down. Actually, it takes less time because you've started to get a handle on the nature of the threat by that time. Just to name an example off the top of my head, Guardians in Dead Space. Comes semi-late in the game and are very rare, but you know it's nature and the extent of what it's capable of. Disturbing on the first encounter, but after that, any tension that comes from encountering one is gone. Same with Pyramid Head in Silent Hill. Watching him rape one of the monsters is preeeeetty disturbing, but once you learn that he's terribly slow...the fact that he's an invulnerable insta-killing abomination isn't really a threat anymore. Even when you're trapped in a small space with him with no way out, surviving long enough means that you win the encounter. Pyramid Head cannot be beaten...but you manage to do it anyway.

The point I wanted to get across is that relying on a protagonist to create horror isn't horror. It's actually a terrible mechanic in all forms of story telling.

I see what you're saying, though. I think. You're saying that hopelessness is the main part of horror. or rather, the uncertainty. I just don't think that should rest on the protagonist's shoulders.

How so? If hopelessness doesn't come from the protagonist, then where can it come from? Should it be like Superman 64, where the protagonist is a demi-god, but the threat comes from harming those around them?

How much of Amnesia have you played? Or Penumbra? Because most people find that knowing more about these fuckers is WORSE. The more you know, the less you want to encounter them. You just want to finish the game without meeting these things. Like Proverbial_Jon said about the spiders and the environments.

Hopelessness of course comes from the protagonist but it shouldn't entirely. I meant to add entirely, by the way. Fucking typing! lol. Anyway, it can come from the lack of resources and how your decisions change the story. I didn't want the cop to die in Silent Hill, I felt pretty shitty when I thought killing her was the only option. But horror in video games sometimes has to draw from other sources. I'm not saying you're wrong about being able to start from checkpoints and stuff but they can die for keeps.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Edit 2: I'll put it this way. The way I hear people describe their 'ideal' horror game on the Escapist, is that they basically want Amensia reskinned as X, because they like to feel 'helpless' in the face of monsters or whatever. The point that I'm trying to make is that you aren't helpless. In a video game, you can never be helpless. The fact that you can survive to the conclusion of the game means that every encounter between those two points can/will be surmounted. It's not the fact that failure is scary so much as...even when you're supposedly 'helpless', you're still incredibly powerful. Whether it's because you're stronger, smarter, faster, etc than the adversaries. No matter how helpless you appear to be, you never are.

Please excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but I haven't read through all 3 pages so I don't know.

What I see here isn't as much a video game issue, but an immersion issue. To put it bluntly, it's not the game's fault, it's yours. Though this may not be intentional.

The way it seems to me is that, to you, a game can't be true horror because, somewhere at the back of your mind, you keep telling yourself that it's simply a game.

Were a monster to find and attack you, it seems your thoughts would be along the line of "Well if he kills me I'll simply restart at my last save and continue on." However most people, when immersed in the game, have, in a way, turned off that part of their mind. They are not playing the game, they are living it. So the threat of losing their lives triggers real horror. True it would be nowhere near the amount of horror were their real lives threatened. But just because it's less horror, doesn't mean it's not still horror.

That's not really it, either. I did write an example of something I would have considered 'real' horror though. Let me try to find it...

Bleh. Couldn't. So I'll just try and summarize what I remember of it.

Basically, the world has ended. Monsters suddenly started appearing across the world and attacked humanity. Armed forces were mobilized but they proved to be no match for the monsters. And so, the world eventually became ruined and decrepit. Some buildings list to the side, most windows have been smashed. Destroyed vehicles litter the streets, and rotting corpses fill the world. The protagonist would be a young adult of indeterminate gender who never speaks, as there is noone to speak to. The only objective of the game is to survive. You have to find food, uncontaminated water, and shelter. The monsters are basically just wirey things covered in a black mist, making their true form indeterminable. Some are humanoid shaped, some are shaped like dogs, and others still are shaped like harvesters and giant tentacle monsters. You can sneak through homes and find journals and such, but the most information you find on the monsters themselves are just baseless speculation. Aliens, a government project gone wrong, what have you. Their purpose is never explained. Their motives are never explored. They simply are.

You can get weapons, but they're completely ineffective. At best, they merely slow the monsters down. As such, they're only good for problem solving. Have a door that you can't find the key to? Chop it down with an axe instead. Hook a generator up to a store and then throw a rock through the window to set off an alarm to attract the monsters. You can stalk them and learn about the monsters. For example, watch one accidentally fall into a puddle, at which point it starts screaming and thrashing about until it pulls itself out. Then the protagonist makes a note that the monsters seem to be weak against water, and when it's raining might be a good time to explore more. This then turns out to be false and there are certain kinds that aren't harmed by water, so different states and environments merely alters the kinds of monsters found there, but nowhere is safe.

All survivors found are either hostile, dying, or both. There can be some variation, such as a group of survivors being led by ex-military, but they will shoot you on sight. As the monsters can't stand light (in some playthroughs), their base has an intricate system of flood lights to serve as a barrier. But you can sabotage their equipment, leading to their base being swarmed by monsters. With most of the survivors dead or fled to form other outposts, you can go through the monster-infested base and gather more resources that you'd find anywhere else.

The game always ends in 'failure', as it simply continues indefinitely until you die. At which point your save is deleted. Starting a new game randomizes parameters (Monster's weaknesses change, survivors and their locations change, different groups might form, etc) and you might unlock some stuff, like outfits and filters, depending on what you accomplished in your past lives.

The concept of the game isn't horror in nature, and I wouldn't consider it a good horror game. But it fits most of the quantifiers.

 

[Arslan Aladeen]

I guess this makes Halo: Reach the most horrifying game of all time.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

You're making an interesting point, however, I'd like to remind you of one very special moment from Silent Hill 2, a game that just got survival horror right. and no, I'm not just saying this because Yahtzee did.

I'm also venturing into spoiler territory here so if you haven't played silent hill yet, consider yourself warned:

Spoiler

About an hour into the game the game, you got into a block of apartment buildings. It was dark and claustrophobic inside, however, it felt much safer than the streets outside because once you've cleared the area, monsters wouldn't reappear until you left it again. It turned into a little exploration adventure and puzzle game, monsters started to feel less threatening because by that time you would have figured out a strategy to deal with them. You found a flashlight, even a handgun and for a moment there, you would feel unstoppable. There was a corridor leading to the other half of the building that was cut off by a set of rusty pipes arranged like bars of a cage. You knew you were supposed to get to the other side of the corridor to progress. You eventually found a way in, collected all the pieces of the puzzle and were on your way to the place when you were able to cross. You were pretty happy and relaxed by that point because the game wasn't so scary anymore. Well the game created a false sense of security there. what it did next was to make you walk past the pipe barricade. And there he was, in his first appearance ever, a guy with a pyramid for a head, dragging a huge fuck off knife with him. Just standing there, doing nothing. As if to say: oh, you wanted to get to the other side of the bars, didn't you? now guess what, I'm here and you'll eventually going to have to deal with me. Are you sure you still want to cross?

That was a stroke of genius. It made me question whether I should leave my relative safe zone and venture into a new, unknown area where a this huge monstrosity is waiting for me or just turn the game off and never play it again.

Also, the actual encounter is something to mention. you were supposed to fight the Pyramid Head off within a space of 2x2 metres. your pistol seemed to do no damage at all and he was quite capable of killing you. Oh yes, you knew you had to survive it to continue the game but the game itself was out there to kill you and you actually had to work for your survival.

A much better counterargument than this, however, would be the (first) death of Maria and the subsequent mindfuck when you found her in that cell, alive and well. You said that you never feel threatened because you can't really get killed in order for the story to progress. Well guess what. Other characters can. Just like in horror films, when the main character wouldn't die up until the very end, this is basically the same thing with a slight change of perspective. If the supporting cast is characterised well enough, a good horror game can make you care about them just as much as you care about the protagonist. And then it will start picking them off one by one.

Oh, you beautiful person! I hate to always be the one to bring Silent Hill 2 up in these threads. I'm sure everyone's sick of it by now.

I think it's also important to point out that...

Spoiler

...it wasn't all that easy to make out just what was on the other side of those bars. That was our first ever glimpse of ol' PH. He wasn't moving and the flashlight only provided limited light. It was definitely humaoid but something about it was just... wrong. Plus the radio static was going crazy and the combined effect was that you just wanted to get the hell out of there... onwards and into the room that would take you to the other side... I still shudder to think about it.

One of my favourite moments however was far less obvious...

Spoiler

Within the same apartment block there is a door. Now bare in mind that the whole place is filled with doors, some open and some have "broken" locks. One door in particular gave a simple text description from James saying that he couldn't open it because it felt like some force was holding it shut from the other side. I was utterly terrified while I thought about what kind of creature might be purposely blocking the door, even though I was perfectly aware that it was nothing more than a glorified "broken lock."

 

[ninjaRiv]

The unknown is scary. Dark Souls captures that perfectly, as you'll be dreading what horror may be around the corner not only because of the tension but also because you'll be booted back to your last bonfire if you die. I dreaded every new zone in Dark Souls as I waited to see what twisted punishment the developers had come up with.

Foreboding messages from other players, while giving you a hint of what's to come, also increase tension. The first time I saw Solaire, I read a player message that said 'Saint ahead', which I had seen near the Black Knight in the Burg before, so I was scared to approach him because I didn't know what he might be.

"Good luck"

I have never played Dark/Demon Souls but this is a good point to add to the discussion. That said, I don't personally consider my in-game character's death to be part of the horror. In Silent Hill, if your character dies that's the end, it's over and they are actually released from the horror (except for Heather.) For the player however, this poses only a mild inconvenience whereupon they are forced to replay an undefined amount of the game, possibly repeatedly. In this situation there is no actual threat to the player, although frustration may cause breakages of certain nearby digital devices!

I am of the opinion that the best horror is one you share with the game character. You are one and the same, extensions of one another, both sharing the same experiences. Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a character in a horror game. When you are so powerfully connected to a character within the game, their experiences become your own and that mental breakdown that's bubbling so close to the surface? Yeah, that could just as easily be your fate as well.

I was about to write an epic essay about why Silent Hill 2 is the best game ever right here... then I realised that everyone's heard it all before and I stopped myself. Oh, and I am fully aware that dying repeatedly is part of the Dark/Demon Souls experience, perhaps it was a bad example for my rant!

Can we pretend I said this? Because it's really smart and valid and I want to be smart...

Why thank you! ^_^

Dammit, and this. I said this. let's pretend I did. These are the points I WANT to get across but seem to be failing to do so.

 

[Not Lord Atkin]

You're making an interesting point, however, I'd like to remind you of one very special moment from Silent Hill 2, a game that just got survival horror right. and no, I'm not just saying this because Yahtzee did.

I'm also venturing into spoiler territory here so if you haven't played silent hill yet, consider yourself warned:

Spoiler

About an hour into the game the game, you got into a block of apartment buildings. It was dark and claustrophobic inside, however, it felt much safer than the streets outside because once you've cleared the area, monsters wouldn't reappear until you left it again. It turned into a little exploration adventure and puzzle game, monsters started to feel less threatening because by that time you would have figured out a strategy to deal with them. You found a flashlight, even a handgun and for a moment there, you would feel unstoppable. There was a corridor leading to the other half of the building that was cut off by a set of rusty pipes arranged like bars of a cage. You knew you were supposed to get to the other side of the corridor to progress. You eventually found a way in, collected all the pieces of the puzzle and were on your way to the place when you were able to cross. You were pretty happy and relaxed by that point because the game wasn't so scary anymore. Well the game created a false sense of security there. what it did next was to make you walk past the pipe barricade. And there he was, in his first appearance ever, a guy with a pyramid for a head, dragging a huge fuck off knife with him. Just standing there, doing nothing. As if to say: oh, you wanted to get to the other side of the bars, didn't you? now guess what, I'm here and you'll eventually going to have to deal with me. Are you sure you still want to cross?

That was a stroke of genius. It made me question whether I should leave my relative safe zone and venture into a new, unknown area where a this huge monstrosity is waiting for me or just turn the game off and never play it again.

Also, the actual encounter is something to mention. you were supposed to fight the Pyramid Head off within a space of 2x2 metres. your pistol seemed to do no damage at all and he was quite capable of killing you. Oh yes, you knew you had to survive it to continue the game but the game itself was out there to kill you and you actually had to work for your survival.

A much better counterargument than this, however, would be the (first) death of Maria and the subsequent mindfuck when you found her in that cell, alive and well. You said that you never feel threatened because you can't really get killed in order for the story to progress. Well guess what. Other characters can. Just like in horror films, when the main character wouldn't die up until the very end, this is basically the same thing with a slight change of perspective. If the supporting cast is characterised well enough, a good horror game can make you care about them just as much as you care about the protagonist. And then it will start picking them off one by one.

Oh, you beautiful person! I hate to always be the one to bring Silent Hill 2 up in these threads. I'm sure everyone's sick of it by now.

I think it's also important to point out that...

Spoiler

...it wasn't all that easy to make out just what was on the other side of those bars. That was our first ever glimpse of ol' PH. He wasn't moving and the flashlight only provided limited light. It was definitely humaoid but something about it was just... wrong. Plus the radio static was going crazy and the combined effect was that you just wanted to get the hell out of there... onwards and into the room that would take you to the other side... I still shudder to think about it.

One of my favourite moments however was far less obvious...

Spoiler

Within the same apartment block there is a door. Now bare in mind that the whole place is filled with doors, some open and some have "broken" locks. One door in particular gave a simple text description from James saying that he couldn't open it because it felt like some force was holding it shut from the other side. I was utterly terrified while I thought about what kind of creature might be purposely blocking the door, even though I was perfectly aware that it was nothing more than a glorified "broken lock."

this.
that's one of the great things that silent hill does when it comes to horror. It plays with your imagination. It makes you fear the horrific things that could happen to you without actually doing anything other than to make you walk through a corridor and give you a glimpse of something odd and unfamiliar.

 

[JDLY]

snip

I think what this all comes down to is two things:

1. One's definition of horror.
Now, based on your original post, games can't do horror because they are made in a way where you can succeed. So your idea of horror is built off some sense of hopelessness, or the idea that you either can't win, or if you lose, you lose for good.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I think we can agree that most seem to disagree with this definition of horror. So how about we use google's definition of horror (I'm not saying it's perfect, but it should reflect to some extent what the general public regards as horror.)

Horror:
Noun
An intense feeling of fear, shock, or disgust.

This definition is much broader, and doesn't include anything about hopelessness or the permanence of death.

This brings us to 2: Can games instill the the feeling of horror.
Now this depends on which definition of horror you're using. If your definition is used, then the answer, as you said, is no. Because you can always win. If you fail you can retry and do it correctly a second time.

But if you use the common definition then it is entirely possible.
However, this is going to be entirely subjective on the person.
An average person would find a game about fighting giant spiders anywhere from a walk in the park to a bit unsettling. However someone with arachnophobia would find it absolutely terrifying.

This brings me back to immersion. If somebody plays through Amnesia in broad daylight with the volume low and dubstep pumping in the background, they're hardly going to be scared. But if they play it at night, in the dark, alone, with headphones on, they are going to be much more immersed and therefore much more afraid. Basically the more immersed you are in a game, the more you feel like you are the person in the game, and not simply controlling them.

 

[afroebob]

Horror isn't just the fear of death, my friend.

 

[cerebus23]

make the movie alien into a game and put the player in the role of one of the crew, you would have to change the details but the basics are the same that would be a terrifying as some faceless horror stalks your crew from the dark and picks them off one by one. having to improvise crude weapons to defend yourselves and trying to escape rather than fight your way out.

if done well it could work and be equally as scary as the movie was back in the day.

 

[Loonyyy]

I guess this makes Halo: Reach the most horrifying game of all time.

Haha, pretty much.

I was thinking about a similar deconstruction. How many horror films/books or whatever are successful based on this definition? I mean, by this logic, The Wicker Man does horror more successfully than Alien.

Horror is not about whether the protagonist succeeds, or even if success is possible, Kopikatsu. It's nothing at all to do with it. It's about the player's perception of whether they can succeed, and their state of mind, and their mood as they experience. That Ripley can escape the Alien doesn't make the worry that she might not, and the knowledge of the brutality of the results lesser. It doesn't make the isolation and the pacing burn at our nerve less. And that series even manages to have a running theme of failure, the Alien always winning and all that, even with a protagonist who repeatedly survives their encounters with them.

To say that video games can't do horror for the reasons supplied would eliminate much of what we call horror. Which would make the definition a poor one. How's it go, it's not the destination, it's the journey.

 

[Robot Number V]

Horror does not require a death at the end. Hell, there plenty of famous horror movies where at least one character survives. The RISK of death can be scary all by itself. Besides, what's really important is being forced to leave your comfort zone. It's why state fright is a thing. You can be afraid of things that aren't death, even if it's not logical. I once woke up in the middle of the night to find a millipede on my mattress. That was scary as shit, yet here I am, very much alive.

Also,

But if the protagonist was capable of dying permanently (whether through a scripted event or just persistence like ZombiU), then you would be right back here complaining that it's Call of Duty all over again.

Wait, what? What does Call of Duty have to do with permanent player death?

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

TBH, what I get from the 1st couple of posts from the OP this thread is "something really scary happened to me IRL and make believe cannot replicate that feeling".*

No shit?

Games can't do "true" horror, neither can movies, books, erm...whatever other kinds of media there might be. They can push a few of the same buttons that cause fear IRL, but we have pretty advanced brains, we can work out that vital elements are missing. Even if on a gut level it instills us with the idea we should run like fuck from that thing that is totally going to murder us we can also comprehend that actually, no it isn't, so we're fine.

* I should also add my sympathies, that must have been incredibly shitty.