Videogames and the Underground: A Problem

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SYSTEM-J

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I've had a deep malaise with videogames for well over five years now, ever since I stopped playing PC games. I've often been heard to proclaim that videogames are dead as a worthwhile or artistic medium, but something has occurred to me recently. My ire and withering criticism has been almost totally directed towards the major releases of the videogaming world: the ones that every magazine and website cover and that the majority of the so-called hardcore eagerly await.

Now, in most other mediums I enjoy and follow, such as music or literature, then I have absolutely no interest nor time for major releases. I buy almost no music that's released on a major label and I spend no time listening to the radio or watching movie channels, and I certainly don't give an aerial intercourse about Dan Brown, JK Rowling or James Patterson. I don't get annoyed or critical of these things, because I expect them to be crap, and I'm fully aware they aren't representative of the quality available in music or literature.

So why do I contradict my own principles when it comes to videogames? Well, I've thought about it briefly and come up with two ideas, both of which I expect to be challenged in this thread.

The first is that videogaming doesn't have much of an underground, and that's because videogaming has traditionally seen itself as underground by default, and so has been indiscriminate about its levels of exposure until very recently. Videogaming has always been associated with geekiness, despite an effort about once every decade for the industry to dumb itself down yet further and throw more marketing at a wider demographic. What's more, videogaming has a self-image of itself as a niche interest, an inherent underground. The whole construct of the "gamer" has no direct equivalent elsewhere. There is no "reader" or "listener", and even "film buff" is much less common and much less indicative of a subculture. Normal people like books, music and film, but gamers like videogames.

Of course, thanks to the efforts of Nintendo, videogaming has seen a recent influx of new recruits that problematise the whole notion of gaming as an underground totality. This has happened before in the 90s, when Sony rebranded gaming with a more cinematic and adult emphasis with the original Playstation, appealing to the general public and so creating a new type of gamer. This split gaming into the PC vs Console dichotomy, where snobby PC gamers saw their format as the bastion of more complex, more sophisticated and less mass-marketed gaming, as opposed to the shallow ranks of console gamers.

Now Nintendo have brought in a new and even less underground demographic so the boundaries have shifted again. Now we have this ludicrous notion of Hardcore vs Casual, where the same gamers who ten years ago would have been the shallow, mainstream players for liking games such as GTA IV and Halo 3 have now convinced themselves they are the "hardcore", entirely thanks to structuralist relativity. Most gamers who've been playing for more than 24 months view themselves as "hardcore", even though they're actually buying shiny, vacuous major studio dreck which would be massively overground in any other medium.

So any true underground that gaming once had has been steadily erased by marketing and reinvention first by Sony and now by Nintendo. Gamers like to see themselves as part of a subculture so they'll brand themselves as "hardcore" even though they're playing Resident Evil 5, the videogaming equivalent to a new Lethal Weapon film. The traditional cultural values and self-image of videogaming combined with the adolescent geek mindset of gamers ensures that they always see themselves as part of a transgressive sub-culture and only an act of incredible, brazen commodification such as the Wii can stir them into life, and even then only as far as swift rejection. Casual gamers don't even know they're called "casual", but all "hardcore" gamers are fully aware of their bullshit badge of honour.

The second point I want to make is that, with PC gaming now firmly relegated to the second tier of gaming relevance, noticed by most gamers outside of its diminishing fanbase only for the occasional major release and the MMORPG bubble, there aren't enough outlets for a gaming underground. With major multinationals such as Sony and Microsoft dictating who gets to release what on their systems, the notion of a non-corporate, creatively minded gaming underground thriving is highly unlikely. The "marketplace" innovation is one lease of life for indie developers, but I'm yet to be convinced it's a thriving scene for new creative blood. The undoubted king of the 360's marketplace is Geometry Wars, a game released from major publisher Activision, and Geometry Wars 2's high score table indicates no more than 250,000 people have even downloaded the trial version.

Although it's a major publisher product, Geometry Wars 2 is a perfect example of how misguided the creative energies of most videogames are today. High quality indie games available for download across the console such as World Of Goo show that an endless push for superior production values, graphical and sonic splendeur is a waste of resources. Major developers have massive budgets, development teams and resources, and there's no way indie developers can compete. The industry is too top-heavy to support an underground scene. This isn't like music or literature where anyone with a band, a DAW or a word processor can make something of equal standard to anyone else. We're talking about the ultimate technological medium, and yet the most creative and interesting games being released could probably run on ten year old technology. A more even distribution of capital is needed, because when the same studios are making all the money, they're becoming less and less inclined to put their resources to good use.

We're supposedly living in the era of the "long tail" where everyone's niche interests are catered for, and yet videogaming, the self-declared niche of society, is still largely obsessed with mass-marketed products. The trendier magazines and websites run the occasional article on one underground area or another, and then go back to writing bloated previews for the new Final Fantasy. Let the casual gamers play the equivalents of Harry Potter or Britney Spears. The so-called "hardcore" should be investing their money into the indie developers who might actually push us out of a landscape of generic shooters and creatively bankrupt sequels.
 

Radeonx

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dowfu said:
SYSTEM-J said:
I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.
I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!
Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.
 

General Vagueness

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Your theories on the "undergroundedness" of gaming are intriguing and may be the main cause. That being said....
dowfu said:
Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!
I love Yahtzee, I really do, but he's neither my messiah nor my pope, and I think he's wrong on that one.
I honestly don't understand this claim people make about Halo being dumbed-down and I had the sneaking suspicion it was stupid reason so I didn't ask, but could someone explain it please? Also I like Harry Potter and I think, or at least hope, that people brush it off because it's not about an adult or an abnormally mature teenager (and before someone asks, I'm 20).
 

WrongSprite

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Aug 10, 2008
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dowfu said:
Radeonx said:
dowfu said:
SYSTEM-J said:
I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.
I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!
Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.
I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!
Are you going to listen to your probation? It's telling you to stop talking about Halo.
 

Legion

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Oct 2, 2008
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dowfu said:
Radeonx said:
dowfu said:
SYSTEM-J said:
I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.
I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!
Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.
I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!
1: You are troll, yes you are.

2: Anyone who thinks of them self as a "true gamer" deserves any flack they get for the plus 1000 nerd points they awarded them self.

3: Yahtzee critiques everything, it's his style of reviewing, anyone who uses him to make a serious point about games gets another 1000 nerd points and the mocking that comes with it.

4: If you want to get banned so badly PM a mod.
 

SYSTEM-J

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Okay, so he's a troll. I can't help but feel that the OP I slaved over is being neglected in favour of feeding him.
 

Durxom

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I agree that there isn't really much of an underground anymore...there really isnt that much to most things now a days...I remember back when I was younger, about the only person that I knew had a console was my older cousin with his SNES, and I was always looking forward to playing it for the few chances I got to see him..then as I got older and the N64 came out, I noticed a lot more kids my age with consoles at school and such things, and then recently, I'm even seeing young kids nowadays at Gamestop looking through the Xbox360 section....

from what I can tell has happened, is the older generation(back from during NES,SNES, and Genesis) have moved on to college, careers, and other such things, and the newer generations are used to and are accustomed to the better graphics/storyline and such of these new games...and buying only the highly hyped games, because they "know" they are going to be "good"...while they bypass some of the better/more well-made hidden gems of the gaming industry..or even go back and play through some old school, or even newer nostalgia based games like Megaman 9...

I don't know if I got your entire point or was off by lightyears...but this is just my 2 cents
 

More Fun To Compute

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I think that the idea that the underground scene hasn't grown as much as we would like is a result of technology. In particular it is a result of the Moore's law growth of performance and complexity that we have seen.

In the home computing scene in the eighties a teenager could learn to program, make a game in a few weeks then get it published or even self publish it. This game could compete with your attention against anything that Nintendo or Atari did and some of these are remembered as classics. This was almost like learning how to play guitar badly and forming a rock and roll band.

These days a teenager can make a game and publish it on the internet. It's easier now because of all the resources available. The big difference is that few people care because the games by the majors have Moore's law budgets of tens of millions of dollars with more than half spent on marketing and the little guy is still working with eighties start up budget.

The underground is there, making games that could be seen as classics of the future if more of the right people just noticed that they enjoy them more than the big releases. Hardcore people who will only play a big budget FPS or RPG are like people who can't see past Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. They are not going to be interested in the game versions of the Sex Pistols or Ramones when they come around.

We need platforms like the PC where games don't have to go through layers of bureaucracy before they connect with gamers who only care about Call of Duty or Mass Effect. We need people to follow news web sites that cover these games and support the game makers with encouragement and hard cash.
 

Monocle Man

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The OP pretty much sums it up quite nice, it's difficult to add anything.

We're supposedly living in the era of the "long tail" where everyone's niche interests are catered for, and yet videogaming, the self-declared niche of society, is still largely obsessed with mass-marketed products. The trendier magazines and websites run the occasional article on one underground area or another, and then go back to writing bloated previews for the new Final Fantasy. Let the casual gamers play the equivalents of Harry Potter or Britney Spears. The so-called "hardcore" should be investing their money into the indie developers who might actually push us out of a landscape of generic shooters and creatively bankrupt sequels.
It's just that the gaming industry doesn't really have a Charon for the music industry's Miley Cirus or anything of the like.

They are things like World of Goo, which ,if I'm not mistaking, is a puzzle game.
Most small-budget games appear to be such games.
They're not bad, they're just not the kind of games that you can lock yourself with in your basement for a few dozen hours unless you have more patience than a spider in a household where they dust every corner twice a day.
They don't give the same experience in a different way like underground music does with mainstream music. They're not an alternative.

If there are underground alternatives for games like Ratchet and Clank, Overlord or so, feel free to shove them in my face.
 

Epifols

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The whole scene of hardcore vs casual is not as malicious as you put it. Because ultimately the point of the game is to have fun and escapism. And mainstream games accomplish that, where as mainstream movies and such don't. I played games like Warcraft 1 in DOS and Unreal, and was huge into them. Now I can play games like Fallout 3, Battlefield 2, and Unreal Tournament 3 and am still getting the same sense of entertainment and escapism with these mainstream games as I did with the much less marketed ones. So yeah, maybe the mega studios with all the cash dominate the market, pumping out giants like Crysis, but it's not going to be the death of gaming. Those games are still FUN.

And the small indie games aren't dead. First off, there is still a great modding community for many games on the PC. The Nameless Mod was recently released for Deus Ex, 7 years to create, and was amazing. They didn't have a big fancy studio, and they did with an outdated piece of software. Also we have programs like Steam that have what I consider enough indie stuff. Audiosurf and World of Goo were great, and easy to get with digital distribustion even for "hardcore gamers". And I don't see whats bad about that label.
 

SYSTEM-J

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Epifols said:
The whole scene of hardcore vs casual is not as malicious as you put it. Because ultimately the point of the game is to have fun and escapism. And mainstream games accomplish that, where as mainstream movies and such don't. I played games like Warcraft 1 in DOS and Unreal, and was huge into them. Now I can play games like Fallout 3, Battlefield 2, and Unreal Tournament 3 and am still getting the same sense of entertainment and escapism with these mainstream games as I did with the much less marketed ones. So yeah, maybe the mega studios with all the cash dominate the market, pumping out giants like Crysis, but it's not going to be the death of gaming. Those games are still FUN.
I would disagree with most of this, because it's subjective, and my opinion differs. I don't think major videogames are any more fun or escapist than major films. Cinema and videogames are quite comparable because the big studios have all the resources and so make all the big-budget productions, which is an objective comparison. There's nothing inherent in that situation to say major games are better than major films though.

Also, I would point out that "escapism" is not a property I'm particularly interested in (and yes, the irony etc.) when it comes to any of the media I'm discussing. Fun, definitely, but escapism? No.

And I don't see whats bad about that label.
Well, as I mentioned in the OP, it's built on a false premise, on a pretence. Most gamers who call themselves "hardcore" today would have been laughed out of the forum ten or fifteen years ago, and it's only a lack of historical context that allows this term to go on being used without irony.

Secondly, the entire Hardcore Vs Casual discourse is completely false. Nobody has set down industry standard meanings for these terms and so there's absolutely no consensus whether they refer to the players or the games, or by which criteria a player/game is categorised. All of videogaming has been split into these two ugly camps with no real meaning or definition, in complete ignorance and disdain for the many subtle levels of involvement and attitude around the medium.
 

ItsAChiaotzu

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Machines Are Us said:
dowfu said:
Radeonx said:
dowfu said:
SYSTEM-J said:
I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.
I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!
Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.
I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!
1: You are troll, yes you are.

2: Anyone who thinks of them self as a "true gamer" deserves any flack they get for the plus 1000 nerd points they awarded them self.

3: Yahtzee critiques everything, it's his style of reviewing, anyone who uses him to make a serious point about games gets another 1000 nerd points and the mocking that comes with it.

4: If you want to get banned so badly PM a mod.
Somehow I don't think PMing a mod will give him the satisfaction he wants.

And also +1000 nerd points for you sir, for posting on a gaming forum.
 

squid5580

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Feb 20, 2008
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dowfu said:
Radeonx said:
dowfu said:
SYSTEM-J said:
I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.
I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!
Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.
I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!
If it wasn't Halo (if you really believe it was and we gamers as a whole are completely responsible free) then it would have been another game. Although I don't see how Halo dumbed down anything. Millions bought it and liked it. Millions more of the haters are giving it free advertising across forums all over the net. I don't think any game could cause that kind of mass stupidity.
 

Epifols

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SYSTEM-J said:
Epifols said:
The whole scene of hardcore vs casual is not as malicious as you put it. Because ultimately the point of the game is to have fun and escapism. And mainstream games accomplish that, where as mainstream movies and such don't. I played games like Warcraft 1 in DOS and Unreal, and was huge into them. Now I can play games like Fallout 3, Battlefield 2, and Unreal Tournament 3 and am still getting the same sense of entertainment and escapism with these mainstream games as I did with the much less marketed ones. So yeah, maybe the mega studios with all the cash dominate the market, pumping out giants like Crysis, but it's not going to be the death of gaming. Those games are still FUN.
I would disagree with most of this, because it's subjective, and my opinion differs. I don't think major videogames are any more fun or escapist than major films. Cinema and videogames are quite comparable because the big studios have all the resources and so make all the big-budget productions, which is an objective comparison. There's nothing inherent in that situation to say major games are better than major films though.

Also, I would point out that "escapism" is not a property I'm particularly interested in (and yes, the irony etc.) when it comes to any of the media I'm discussing. Fun, definitely, but escapism? No.

And I don't see whats bad about that label.
Well, as I mentioned in the OP, it's built on a false premise, on a pretence. Most gamers who call themselves "hardcore" today would have been laughed out of the forum ten or fifteen years ago, and it's only a lack of historical context that allows this term to go on being used without irony.

Secondly, the entire Hardcore Vs Casual discourse is completely false. Nobody has set down industry standard meanings for these terms and so there's absolutely no consensus whether they refer to the players or the games, or by which criteria a player/game is categorised. All of videogaming has been split into these two ugly camps with no real meaning or definition, in complete ignorance and disdain for the many subtle levels of involvement and attitude around the medium.
Well if you go that way, the whole idea of hardcore is subjective. Yes, these people might have been laughed out of the forums back then, but in the current situation based on the social circumstances and changing of the word, they are now the new hardcore. There never was an absolute definition of hardcore anyway. And maybe the pretense is not as false as you make it sound. The companies consciously acknowledge a difference between hardcore and casual, making both terms more and more real.
 

OneBig Man

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I don't see a problem with mainstream. Mainstram companies started out small. All any underground group needs is a big break to become mainstream.
 

Cyneric

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It depends sometimes Mainstream is good, I consider Bioware mainstream because everyone knows about them considering the fox news fiasco. However some mainstream companies leave a bad taste in my mouth, just like some of the more niche companies do. I find Square Enix as a company appalling in how they handle things, just like sometimes I don't like every Atlus game.

The whole hardcore/casual fight is just stupid childish nonsense, while I would love if the more niche games had a lot more coverage like persona so that Atlus might get more money to bring over more games, it doesn't mean I hate mainstream for it. I just choose games that are good story wise since that to me is where you can be the most creative, after all getting someone to feel emotions for a character that isn't real is more impressive then giving me gameplay.

I was never a big PC gamer, I played games like Ultima, system shock, and Unreal way back then, but really PC gaming never had the same style of gaming that I enjoyed where consoles did.
 

Code Monkey

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Yahtee may have said that halo ruined the genre, But he also said (And I quote) "Sometimes mainstream things are mainstream for a reason: because their good. or because will smith is in it"
 

SYSTEM-J

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Epifols said:
Well if you go that way, the whole idea of hardcore is subjective. Yes, these people might have been laughed out of the forums back then, but in the current situation based on the social circumstances and changing of the word, they are now the new hardcore. There never was an absolute definition of hardcore anyway. And maybe the pretense is not as false as you make it sound. The companies consciously acknowledge a difference between hardcore and casual, making both terms more and more real.
Well, exactly. Language shapes reality. By convincing everyone that they are the hardcore, the gaming companies never have to face up to the shallowness and shoddy quality of their products, because they can set themselves up against the casual party games Nintendo are making. In historical terms, the "hardcore" are anything but, but the hardcore/casual divide safely erases such problematic history, positioning major studio cack as the credible and serious option.

If you want an obvious analogy, think of the bit in Orwell's 1984 where Symes discusses Newspeak, a language carefully constructed so certain concepts and feelings, such as dissent and rebellion, can no longer be expressed because there are no longer the words to express them. Gamers, especially new recruits, will never consider that the major studio games are vacuous and derivative, because the entire discourse of the medium sets them up as the hardcore side of gaming.

OneBig Man said:
I don't see a problem with mainstream. Mainstram companies started out small. All any underground group needs is a big break to become mainstream.
Mainstream isn't necessarily bad. In any medium there are artists who combine creative achievement with commercial success. Christopher Nolan, Pink Floyd, Terry Pratchett, Valve.

The problem with mainstream production is that it's driven by capitalist motives, by the need for profit. So you get all kinds of horrible things like design by demographic, safety-first creative decisions and a general appeal to the lowest common denominator. This is where all those commonly-cited reasons why games are so bland come into play: the cost of making a game, the risks of failure, the commercial security in making a sequel or licensed product etc.

When I talk about the underground I don't mean small fry developers who want to get a shot at the big time. If your band is still playing in your garage but you want to be the new Metallica then you aren't underground. You're just unknown. By underground I mean a self contained scene that is primarily concerned with serving its own creative interests, with just enough money invested by the fanbase to keep the scene fuelled and operational. The underground isn't especially concerned with profit and reaching millions, it's concerned with creating without artistic compromise for like-minded and devoted individuals.
 

Arrers

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SYSTEM-J said:
Okay, so he's a troll. I can't help but feel that the OP I slaved over is being neglected in favour of feeding him.
Welcome to the escapist. We tell ourselves not to feed the trolls, but it's just so hard to resist.

It was a good read though, if a little preachy towards the end. I'm pretty sure that it is easier to get indie games on the PC via download on the net, making it the best platfom for indie developers. That said, there is also stuff like XNA, which allows Indie developers to make games for the Xbox Live market place (but to my knowlege Dishwasher: The Dead Samurai is the only XNA game released on marketplace).

I Think that they reason the "Hardcore" go for the big AAA titles is that they are looking for the most ,technologically, advanced games,the ones deemed to be real games, rather than quirky gamplay mechanics or artistic direction of indie games. another problem for indie games is that they are very hard to get at. you can pick up Fez or Spelunky at your local gamestop or anything, and it's quite likely that most "hardcore" gamers haven't even heard of these game (it's a miracle that I have).