Videogames and the Underground: A Problem

[sarahvait]

I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.

I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!

Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.

I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!

Well, I'm sure you and Yahtzee can go hug and cry about it in a corner somewhere to ease the pain.

And I'm sorry, spreading the truth about Halo? What, so you're John the Revelator (sp?) now? You're hardly the first person to say these things. Heck, I'm pretty sure that many people here agree for the most part. They're just not being so trolly about it. (Huh, I must be feeling crabby today)

Anyhow, as to the OP, I don't know, there's a pretty big underground movement for games IMHO. (whether or not we have the same idea of "big" is another story). Just because indie developers don't have the resources to make some kind of eye-popping graphical experience doesn't mean they can't make an amazing gaming experience, as long as we the player are willing to give it a chance. Sites like Abandonia Reloaded, Acid-play, and Ytanium have tons of freeware games to play, all probably made by one to four man teams with not much more than ambition to make a game behind them. And there's Jay is Games, one of my favorite sites, which is a great source for not just freeware, but massive amounts of browser games that are really good. And I don't just mean those casual puzzle games.

So...I don't know, I think there's still underground out there. Don't know if I expressed it coherently or correctly, but there you are.

 

[SYSTEM-J]

I Think that they reason the "Hardcore" go for the big AAA titles is that they are looking for the most ,technologically, advanced games,the ones deemed to be real games, rather than quirky gamplay mechanics or artistic direction of indie games. another problem for indie games is that they are very hard to get at. you can pick up Fez or Spelunky at your local gamestop or anything, and it's quite likely that most "hardcore" gamers haven't even heard of these game (it's a miracle that I have).

That's a good explanation, but it's another reason why these people shouldn't be accepted as "hardcore". A few years ago they'd probably be dubbed as "graphics whores", although perhaps "production value whores" is a better label. A magpie-liked obsession with shininess is exactly the kind of empty-headed consumption of games that's to blame for the amount of crap out there now.

Technological power is completely misdirected in modern videogames. I played Halo 3 through a speaker system recently for the first time and I was blown away by the quality of the sound design. It was Hollywood-class. And yet it was just a very expensive layer of polish to a shoddily made game, and the hours and man power invested in it could easily have been put to playtesting and improving the gameplay. We aren't seeing games that make use of the technology available. Fifteen years ago everyone was still stuck in the graphics-as-restriction 8-bit mindset, so things like 3D engines and powerful processors were a welcome opportunity to expand the gameplay. Now the same corridors and space marines are being rendered in ever higher quality.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

you can pick up Fez or Spelunky at your local gamestop or anything, and it's quite likely that most "hardcore" gamers haven't even heard of these game (it's a miracle that I have).

Huh, you are on the Escapist where the lead article in this weeks magazine was all about Spelunky. It says something that this quickly devolved into a discussion about an 8 year old AAA game when it could have been about Derek Yu and the TIGSource community.

 

[SYSTEM-J]

Anyhow, as to the OP, I don't know, there's a pretty big underground movement for games IMHO. (whether or not we have the same idea of "big" is another story). Just because indie developers don't have the resources to make some kind of eye-popping graphical experience doesn't mean they can't make an amazing gaming experience, as long as we the player are willing to give it a chance. Sites like Abandonia Reloaded, Acid-play, and Ytanium have tons of freeware games to play, all probably made by one to four man teams with not much more than ambition to make a game behind them. And there's Jay is Games, one of my favorite sites, which is a great source for not just freeware, but massive amounts of browser games that are really good. And I don't just mean those casual puzzle games.

So...I don't know, I think there's still underground out there. Don't know if I expressed it coherently or correctly, but there you are.

I believe you that the games and sites exist, but you've got the twin problems I mentioned in my OP: firstly, most gamers think they are the underground anyway so they don't look for these games, and secondly I'm guessing most of what you've just listed is available only for the PC, and less and less people are playing on the PC. My point about indie developers lacking money wasn't a point against them, it was a point that they aren't getting the money they could be. The money is stacked towards the top of the industry, and if more people who called themselves hardcore lived up to the billing, there would be more people playing these games.

@More Fun To Compute: Completely off-topic in my own thread, but are you a Kraftwerk fan?

 

[Sanaj]

The "casual" and "hardcore" gamer labels are overused and are just more overly simplified categorizations
that people like to throw around.

Just because a game is mainstream doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or mediocre.
Just because a game is indie or a casual game doesn't necessarily mean it's good.
I like some games that are mainstream, some indie ones and even some casual ones.
I try to judge the game not by their label(s) but by how much I enjoyed playing the game.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

@More Fun To Compute: Completely off-topic in my own thread, but are you a Kraftwerk fan?

Not their biggest fan but a certain album was in my playlist when I picked this user name.

 

[Arrers]

you can pick up Fez or Spelunky at your local gamestop or anything, and it's quite likely that most "hardcore" gamers haven't even heard of these game (it's a miracle that I have).

Huh, you are on the Escapist where the lead article in this weeks magazine was all about Spelunky. It says something that this quickly devolved into a discussion about an 8 year old AAA game when it could have been about Derek Yu and the TIGSource community.

well, although I'm unsure wether you're making fun of me or not, but I will say that this thread is a testement to how easy it is to derail a thread.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

well, although I'm unsure wether you're making fun of me or not, but I will say that this thread is a testement to how easy it is to derail a thread.

Just a mild ribbing for saying that it is a miracle you have heard of a game that is on the front page.

 

[Arrers]

well, although I'm unsure wether you're making fun of me or not, but I will say that this thread is a testement to how easy it is to derail a thread.

Just a mild ribbing for saying that it is a miracle you have heard of a game that is on the front page.

With hindsight I did kind of deserve it, althouhg I can't help but wonder how many people actually read the weekly magazine...

 

[General Vagueness]

With hindsight I did kind of deserve it, although I can't help but wonder how many people actually read the weekly magazine...

I don't

 

[Legion]

I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.

I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!

Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.

I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!

1: You are troll, yes you are.

2: Anyone who thinks of them self as a "true gamer" deserves any flack they get for the plus 1000 nerd points they awarded them self.

3: Yahtzee critiques everything, it's his style of reviewing, anyone who uses him to make a serious point about games gets another 1000 nerd points and the mocking that comes with it.

4: If you want to get banned so badly PM a mod.

Somehow I don't think PMing a mod will give him the satisfaction he wants.

And also +1000 nerd points for you sir, for posting on a gaming forum.

That's kind of a void point, as that would apply to every poster here.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I don't see a problem with mainstream. Mainstram companies started out small. All any underground group needs is a big break to become mainstream.

Agreed.
Mainstream things are mainstream because a large amount of people buy (therefore like) them. It is silly to argue that mainstream games are killing an industry when they are an industry.

I don't think that the OP was talking about the mainstream killing anything. More like how hard it is for good alternatives to get made and connect with an audience.

 

[ItsAChiaotzu]

I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.

I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!

Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.

I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!

1: You are troll, yes you are.

2: Anyone who thinks of them self as a "true gamer" deserves any flack they get for the plus 1000 nerd points they awarded them self.

3: Yahtzee critiques everything, it's his style of reviewing, anyone who uses him to make a serious point about games gets another 1000 nerd points and the mocking that comes with it.

4: If you want to get banned so badly PM a mod.

Somehow I don't think PMing a mod will give him the satisfaction he wants.

And also +1000 nerd points for you sir, for posting on a gaming forum.

That's kind of a void point, as that would apply to every poster here.

Yeah but not everyone here are calling other posters nerds.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Aah, good point, I guess I agree. At the same time, with videogames, I don't feel indie games are as good as big industry games because of the interactivity. While it may be correct to say that indie games innovate far more than industry this is because of the lesser financial risk, sound business practices, calling yourself hardcore for playing indie is stupid. As the industry grows hopefully so too will the creative elasticity.

I don't really get the point about interactivity. They struggle to create as much content as a full studio but they often specialise in novel forms of interactivity as an alternative. Financial risk can also be worse for an indie. Think losing investor money and having to find a new job is bad? How about using your own money and not being able to do the same thing at another company.

For me, being hardcore should not be some final destination where you can play Team Fortress and Left4Dead all day knowing that nobody is more hardcore than you. Nobody really knows or should care what hardcore is. Looking for new games from companies that can't compete directly with the Valves and Blizzards is well worth doing. I don't need to be told I'm stupid or settling for a second class experience for doing that.

 

[Legion]

I can't tell if that's bad sarcasm or just a lot of anti-Halo sentiment.

I'm not sarcastic, it's the truth! Halo dumb downed first person shooters!!!

Shut up. Your just a failure of a troll that is too stubborn to do anyone any good. Reported.

I'm not a troll, I'm just a true gamer who's spreading the truth about Halo. Even Yahtzee says that Halo is responsible for turning the genre into shit!

1: You are troll, yes you are.

2: Anyone who thinks of them self as a "true gamer" deserves any flack they get for the plus 1000 nerd points they awarded them self.

3: Yahtzee critiques everything, it's his style of reviewing, anyone who uses him to make a serious point about games gets another 1000 nerd points and the mocking that comes with it.

4: If you want to get banned so badly PM a mod.

Somehow I don't think PMing a mod will give him the satisfaction he wants.

And also +1000 nerd points for you sir, for posting on a gaming forum.

That's kind of a void point, as that would apply to every poster here.

Yeah but not everyone here are calling other posters nerds.

Seriously? Do you actually read post before replying, or even your own posts for that matter?

You said:

And also +1000 nerd points for you sir, for posting on a gaming forum.

The bold part is the important bit and has no relevance to what my post said. If you're going to try and be a smartass, take the time to proof-read first.

I'm almost beginning to wonder if the troll is an alternative account of yours seeing as you took so much offence at the guy being brought down a peg.

Or maybe you are over sensitive and the word 'nerd' upsets you, even when used against trolls?

Calling me a nerd for calling him a nerd is just plain idiotic.

 

[SYSTEM-J]

Agreed.
Mainstream things are mainstream because a large amount of people buy (therefore like) them. It is silly to argue that mainstream games are killing an industry when they are an industry.

Which is an appeal to popularity fallacy. Popularity is not a measure of merit, particularly if you hold videogames to be more than mere mass entertainment. I doubt many people here hold Britney Spears to be the pinnacle of modern music because she sells more records than most other people.

I don't think mainstream games are killing the industry, or killing games in a commercial sense. I do believe they are stagnating games in an artistic or creative sense. The mainstream can be a source of quality, but it needs to interact with the underground. It's typical for the mainstream to steal from the underground and sanitise it, thus ensuring a winning combination of innovation and mass-appeal. This isn't happening enough in games, because mainstream gaming is an echo chamber.

...calling yourself hardcore for playing indie is stupid. As the industry grows hopefully so too will the creative elasticity.

Calling yourself "hardcore" in the first place is stupid, but millions of people do it. If you're going to be so pretentious, then at least live up to your billing. The fact so many people call themselves and the games they play hardcore without irony is indicative of a lack of self-awareness, a compliance with the flaws of the medium.

And I simply don't buy the "as the industry grows" line. I've been playing games for 17 years and I've heard the same optimistic "as the industry grows" mantra for most of that time. It doesn't come true. If anything, I see regression.

 

[SYSTEM-J]

Nostalgia isn't hazing my vision. Do you honestly think I would put such thought into what I'm saying and not actually go back and play the old games for comparison first? Games have obviously improved in terms of graphics and sound quality, but if you actually read my posts you'd already know what I think of that. Frankly, I find your claim that innovation is nicely snowballing laughable. Absolutely laughable.

I'm also confused as to why you might think I'm saying everyone should game by my standards.

 

[Nutcase]

I admire the passion and hard work that goes into indie games. As a gaming enthusiast and professional, I oftentimes dig into them out of curiosity and to look for novel ideas. But the truth is that all but a small minority of indie games are utter crap. Web-based games do even worse. It's not a question of technology, but failures in design. Sluggish and loose controls, repetitive levels without rhythm, bad art that doesn't fit in the whole, muffled sound, ridiculously bad writing (even by video game standards), lack of polish.

Of course, mediocrity polished to a mirror shine and wrapped in AAA-quality packing materials never becomes more than mediocrity. Which brings us to how mainstream fails.

I find the real problem in the mainstream can be summed up as timidity and lack of integrity. The publishers and/or developers lack the balls to hold onto a coherent idea and carry through with it. They are obsessed with conforming to all kinds of gamers, many of which will not like the game anyway. In doing so, they guarantee no one will love the game. (There's a saying in my native language which goes roughly like this: "To grovel in every direction is to show your ass in every direction".)

Gamers wanting a better future should keep themselves widely informed of what's out there, then buy the best game they can find. Sometimes it is the mainstream game du jour, sometimes it is the garage-built indie, but mostly it is neither.

If game "journalists" were actual experts on games, and had some quality standards for their own work, they could help the gamer with the keeping informed bit. Unfortunately I'm hard pressed to think of a profession where the average practitioner is more useless.