Villains you felt sympathy for, but felt you weren't meant to?

[galaktar]

Colonel Bagley from "The Last Samurai." Captain Algren ends up respecting Katsumoto because of his unwavering obedience to his leader, the emperor, despite the his corruptibility, but despises Colonel Bagley because of his unwavering obedience to his leader, the US Government, despite the its corruptibility.

And the Ninjas from the same movie... In real life they were rural people who spent centuries trying trying to find ways to avoid being brutalized by the Samurai, and then along comes this dumb american movie that makes them out to be disposable hit-men on the take from greedy westerners. It would have been a much more intellectually stimulating movie if it had bothered to point out that maybe they had legitimate gripes, and that Bushido wasn't exactly the idyllic lifestyle it was made out to be.

 

[royohz]

Bender from Futurama. Poor fella, all he wants is to kill all the humans. Is that really so bad? How can you people deny him his life long dream. You people are cruel.

 

[Wereduck]

Tom and Jerry.

JERRY IS A DOUCHE! I mean, seriously. Hate that Damn Mouse!
...

+1 to this. Always felt great sympathy for Tom & Sylvester - I'd have liked to see Jerry & Tweety roasted on the same kebob.

 

[WhyBotherToTry]

The Grinch. It wasn't his fault his heart wasn't made the right size!
Also Shylock from the Merchant of Venice. Sure, he was a bit sadistic, but the world at large had made him miserable for no reason other than his religion, he deserved a bit of payback.

 

[217not237]

I've got sympathy for the devil.

 

[Olas]

Walter White from Breaking Bad, he only entered the drug trade to secure his families future and tried to be a reasonable person the entire time. If you think about it almost every "bad" thing he's done was in an act of desperation due to other people acting like murderous lunatics.

Anyone else looking forward to the start of season 5 in 6 days?

 

[Furbyz]

All this sympathy for Satan reminds me of a song.

Spoiler

I don't feel an particular sympathy for him, though I suppose I do understand the viewpoint.

OT: The one I came to talk about, however, is Zolton Kulle from Diablo 3. Whenever anyone talks about him, all they will say is that he's evil. He's really evil. He does sick, nasty, dastardly evil things. Yet, I receive no specifics at all beyond that he apparently tried to reattain the power of the Nephalem to liberate Sanctuary from the High Heavens and the Burning Hells. Where is the evil in this? After being told he was Evil so much, I began to suspect that it was all just a lot of hype. Then you actually meet the guy, and he's Steven Blum putting on his best "I am Sinister Steven Blum" voice. After which, literally everything he says makes him come off as the only logical person in the whole game with him pointing out that everyone is just using you (which they are). Before your forced to kill him, he gives the standard join the darkside so that HE can be the one to use me. At least he's pretty much up front about it. I appreciate that.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I was going to say Queen Azala from Chrono Trigger, but I think her last lines were meant to make us feel sorry for her and her race. Everything up to that point was comical Mwahahaha-ing evil.

Another song of Ice and fire one here- Jaime Lannister

Without spoiling too much:
To be fair, he does undergo something of an arc of redemption, in personality if nothing else.
Granted, it takes an act of great dickishness, to force him to change.

 

[Virgilthepagan]

I feel a lot of Chaos Space Marines are quite a misunderstood bunch and aren't as bad as they are made out to be. Maybe just led a little astray.

Yup, the motto "kill maim burn" is really part of a jaunty musical number they're working on these days.

For my part? I think the elven prince from Hellboy II, even if it meant genocide the movie does a good job of making him out as someone fighting for his people. Either that or the Major in Hellsing. In that case it's just because he raises such a great contrast. Completely insane, utterly monstrous, and evil to the core, and yet...well, I won't spoil it here.

 

[Chicago Ted]

The Sith are a big one for me. Since the Jedi's position is basically, "What is this thinking for yourself? Emotion? Pah!" and the Sith's seems to be, "I kind of like emotion to be honest." Plus there's the whole "bringing balance to the force" thing that suggests the Sith are just as valuable to the force as the Jedi. Not that Lucas would ever think that making a well thought out argument that makes his films much more mature part of the canon would be a good idea.

If you're still not understanding why I would like the Sith, this is the Jedi Code:
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Whereas the Sith Code is this:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

The Sith one is just better.

You must have missed the part where they're massmurdering lunatics? Now the jedis are pretty much as far from good guys as you can get (see knights of the old republic by Dark Horse), but that doesn't make the Sith any less evil. There are dark and grey jedi however who can be quite sympathetic.

I've heard arguments about Palpatine being sympathetic with the whole "create a safe and functional society" but he cracks a few too many eggs along the way.

And when the Sith code is explained, what it actually means pretty much boils down to "kill people, it's better for you, and them, and the rest of society. Plus it's fun! And don't forget the torture".

And the Jedi? They take children from their families straight after birth to indoctrinate them into their celibate emotionless cult and show very few qualms about openly using a slave army.

The Jedi are just as morally unsound and questionable as the Sith, but they do it under the false pretense and belief that they're faultless and can only do good. Least the Sith are more in tune with reality over their actions.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

I feel a lot of Chaos Space Marines are quite a misunderstood bunch and aren't as bad as they are made out to be. Maybe just led a little astray.

Yup, the motto "kill maim burn" is really part of a jaunty musical number they're working on these days.

For my part? I think the elven prince from Hellboy II, even if it meant genocide the movie does a good job of making him out as someone fighting for his people. Either that or the Major in Hellsing. In that case it's just because he raises such a great contrast. Completely insane, utterly monstrous, and evil to the core, and yet...well, I won't spoil it here.

You probably missed where I explained as I feel sorry for the standard Space Marine that was corrupted and turned to Chaos by their Chapter Master pre-Heresy. I have no sympathy for the current CSM group. I should have specified that in original message.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

The Sith are a big one for me. Since the Jedi's position is basically, "What is this thinking for yourself? Emotion? Pah!" and the Sith's seems to be, "I kind of like emotion to be honest." Plus there's the whole "bringing balance to the force" thing that suggests the Sith are just as valuable to the force as the Jedi. Not that Lucas would ever think that making a well thought out argument that makes his films much more mature part of the canon would be a good idea.

If you're still not understanding why I would like the Sith, this is the Jedi Code:
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Whereas the Sith Code is this:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

The Sith one is just better.

My moral philosophy kinda makes me more sympathetic to the jedi's cause. My morals can basically be summed up as do what is best for everyone involved, using logic and logic purely to determine this. Emotion can blind and it can make right seem wrong and wrong seem right but our goal should always be a better world and nothing can get in the way of that. Not love, not anger, not hatred, not vengence. Freedom is valuble as it is somthing sentient beings prize and hold valuble and stripping of them of their freedom is a action most horrible that should only be done in circumstance where the loss of freedom is preferable to the alternatives. Always remember that taking away freedoms often effects many. Seek always knowledge because all moral and logical decsions must be based on knowledge. If we do not have knowledge than we cannot correctly assess the morality of our actions therefore the gathering of knowledge for the betterment of mankind should be a very very high priority.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Light Yagami in Death Note. Yes, he was the bad guy. Yes, he did horrible things. But to me, he almost seemed like a victim himself. I guess what did it what

Spoiler: Death Note spoilers

the episodes where he forgot he was, in fact, Kira. Seeing how he would act without the influence of the Death Note...it just seemed to make him sympathetic.

I think you were supposed to like him, at least a bit. I spent the whole thing hoping to see his goal completed and the world changed into a utopia. Plus he never really did anything I considered too evil. Most of the people he killed were either criminals, mostly rapists and murderers or they were trying to kill him so self defense, like the FBI guys. I wanted him to win so bad and I actually was kinda happy to see L die since he was a huge obstacle.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Azula from Avatar the Last Airbender. Thought she was the most awesome character, felt kinda sad when she lost in the end.
Loki from the viking mythology, and in the movie. Hes not evil, hes just mischievous.

I really really like Norse mythology but I do not at all feel sympathy for Loki, Lord of Lies. Anyone who kills the god of peace, light, happiness, and beauty for no other reason than to be a dick gets put on my hatred list. Plus in "revenge" for toturing and imprisoning him he kills almost all the gods and all but two humans. Really, you killed the god everybody loved, you deserve it so stop moping. Also screw Sutr for actually going through with the whole kill everybody plan.

 

[Lunatic High]

I'd have to say the Crippled god from the Malazan book of the fallen series

 

[Silver]

You must have missed the part where they're massmurdering lunatics? Now the jedis are pretty much as far from good guys as you can get (see knights of the old republic by Dark Horse), but that doesn't make the Sith any less evil. There are dark and grey jedi however who can be quite sympathetic.

I've heard arguments about Palpatine being sympathetic with the whole "create a safe and functional society" but he cracks a few too many eggs along the way.

And when the Sith code is explained, what it actually means pretty much boils down to "kill people, it's better for you, and them, and the rest of society. Plus it's fun! And don't forget the torture".

And the Jedi? They take children from their families straight after birth to indoctrinate them into their celibate emotionless cult and show very few qualms about openly using a slave army.

The Jedi are just as morally unsound and questionable as the Sith, but they do it under the false pretense and belief that they're faultless and can only do good. Least the Sith are more in tune with reality over their actions.

You didn't really read my post, I take it? At least not the part about Dark Horse, in which the jedi slaughter their own padawans to prevent a false prophecy taking place?

No, the jedi aren't the good guys, but that doesn't make the sith any less evil. A rapist isn't sympathetic for stopping a robbery. If you compare two massmurderers you won't say "well, the other guy's evil as well, so this gal ain't so bad."

 

[Lonewolfm16]

It doesn't help that their main idea to make themselves stronger is to constantly kill each other, to the point where they decided "you know what? Let's make it so that there's only two Sith at a time a master and a student, and eventually the student has to kill the master". I can practically hear Darwin ripping his beard off in anger.

I do have to admit that I like the Sith code though, there's potential there for a good anti-villian, but like someone else mentioned, the
Sith are practically Always Chaotic Evil and sometimes Chaotic Stupid.

Ehhhhh to a degree, the Rule of Two makes sense/works... discounting the diminishing effects of aging, the student would only be able to kill the master when they are stronger/more powerful, which leads to more and more powerful sith lords in the long run (or it should, anyway)... Each student has to be strong enough to defeat their master, who was strong enough to defeat THEIR master, etc... the current apprentice must essentially surpass every previous master to become the new one

Its comparatively great as the previous system was shockingly awful - everyone still killed their masters because they're power hungry bastards, but they ganged up to do it... no one student had to be stronger than the master, only the group did, at which point you have a group of crappy students with no master to improve them, and then the group turns on each other and bam! you're left with one sith who is shit in comparison to the master... who then gets murdered by a group of their own students, etc, essentially devolving the order... The rule of two concentrates power in the next generation, as opposed to spreading it out/weakening it. Its essentially darwinism at its finest...

OT: as for me, I'd probably say Cassandra De Vries from Perfect Dark... Sure, she does some bad things, allies with bad "people", etc, but is just trying to be business savvy and

Spoiler

ended up being double crossed, so she sacrificed herself to set Joanna free and ulimately get revenge... noble, badass, pulling dick moves to the real enemy, even in death... love it!

But you have you have to kill off apprentices or masters to do that. It is completly fine to have a weaker apprentice and a stronger master. If you just dont kill the master then you can have two sith of relatively equal power instead of one.

 

[VeryOddGamer]

The Suul'Ka from Sword of The Stars. I mean, dying because you don't have enough room to live must be really frustrating. Yeah, they did murder and brainwash their own children, but trying to live forever because you really can is a pretty good motivation.
Also,

Spoiler

Sun LI

from Jade Empire. I mean, he's really just reclaiming what belongs to him.

Reclaiming what belongs to him? He took the power of the Water Dragon and that certainly doesn't belong to him...

Well, not that, but you know, he was betrayed by his brothers, remember? Forced into exile? No, the power doesn't really belong to him but, you know, the emperor guy whose name I can't remember probably wouldn't have gotten it without Li.