Violence in games vs Sexism in games?

[Burnouts3s3]

I've heard this argument a lot, but I'm still very unclear how you can support one thing, but the other thing appears to be wrong.

When people discuss violence in video games, many agree that there is no direct correlation between violence in video games and violence in real life. Therefore, if I were to play a First Person Shooter, I would feel the need to shoot people in real life.

But, when sexism is discussed in games, many say it's not the same thing or "false equivalence". I watch a lot of Bob "Moviebob" Chipman's videos, but I'm still a bit confused. How does one thing lead to another? If I can play an FPS, and not shoot someone based on my experience, then how would playing a sexist video game (Let's say Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum-Laude, which for the record was just a terrible game) make me mistreat women?

I do understand sexism does exist, but I'm still unsure how sexism in the media will cause sexism in real life. Through desensitization?

 

[tippy2k2]

Do people argue that? The "playing sexist games makes people mistreat women"? Maybe they do but I find that when most woman discuss their problems with it it's this:

It makes ladies uncomfortable.

That's about it. Think of it this way as a dude (I assume you are a dude)...

You're playing Ultra Awesome New Third Person Shooter! The only characters you are allowed to choose is greased up muscle men in speedos. That's what you get to look at all day and all night while playing the game. No, you can't choose another character; greased up speedo man or you don't get to play.

Now think of it this way; 75% of games (random number, that has no basis in fact) you get to play involve nothing but greased up speedo guys...

How long would it take before you started complaining about the game industry?

It's got nothing to do with desensitization or brain control; it just sucks to have nothing to play as except for a greased up speedo guy.

 

[The Lunatic]

I never got how fantasy violence is somehow worse than fantasy sexism.

Both situations aren't real, why is one suddenly offensive and the other not?

Added to that, surely death and killing is worse crime than rape and well, in some cases, just plain sex.


I do get tired of games that dress women in a certain way, I would like to play female characters that are actually vaguely realistic, but, if the "Lore" of the game is that all women dress like sluts, then, I guess that's just artistic vision for you.

I don't think "Artistic Vision" should be squashed because people don't agree with it.

But, games that aren't doing it intentional and just fall into "This is totally what women look like, right?" category are just poorly researched and that deserves criticism.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I do understand sexism does exist, but I'm still unsure how sexism in the media will cause sexism in real life. Through desensitization?

Bingo. Well, the exact argument isn't really that it causes sexism but rather that it helps perpetuate gender stereotypes. If you play a lot of games where women lack agency, are weak, need help and never really serve any purpose other than to act as second fiddle to a man you will eventually be more accepting of these kinds of portrayal of women.

So how does it differ from violence? For one, the violence in games is generally regarded as a tool. You use violence to achieve specific goals and the violence is usually contextualized by the narrative and setting of the game (war, zombie outbreak etc.) in such a way as to justify its inclusion and central role in the game. The sexism aimed at women is more insidious however, because it is generally not important to the theme and narrative and is often not even connected to it in any meaningful manner. More often than not the sexism either takes the form of pure fanservice (chainmail bikinis, elite soldiers in stiletto heels and spandex) or as simple lack of inclusion for women (GTA V having no major female character in its' main story and only passing the Bechdel test due to the inclusion of a family therapy session with Michael).

By repeatedly being exposed to the unspoken assumptions that only men can be heroes and that women are either love interests, need help or are meant for titillation and viewing pleasure you will eventually start internalizing these things unless they are counteracted by something else (such as games with a heroine and a male love interest). That's not to say that playing games makes you a raging misogynist, but rather that all consumption of media affects how we think and perceive the world.

 

[tippy2k2]

You know what I did fairly recently. As a straight guy I deliberately went out of my way to play a couple of games that were just what was being mentioned.

I played "Mount your friends" and "My ex boyfriend the Space Tyrant a gay adventure game" no really. You know what I discovered though (and no not a suppressed sexuality) that it's possible to get past that point and enjoy the game. What I found was if I looked for it then it annoyed me because I was seeing it however once I went "Ok I'm just going to play and enjoy this game" suddenly I wasn't seeing it in my face and I was able to simply enjoy the game.

What this comes back to is the Barbie vs He-Man argument.
What it boils down to is stylised female "beaty" vs Stylised Male "beauty" and the rights and wrongs of each.

A long while ago I wrote an article mocking the coming storm by going through video games and picking male characters and attacking those games for showing scantily clad male characters. (Seriously I even pointed out Metal gear solid is a game series where you spend the whole time staring at a guys arse.) In short there is ground for improvement on both sides but going in looking to be discriminated agaisnt will often result in you finding it where as going in with the intention of simply enjoying a game can often result in people not noticing these instances of alleged oppression.

That's nice that you did it for two games...(just to be clear with tone, I'm serious; I'm not mocking you here, I promise )

Now do it for a week. Now do it for a year. Now do it for a decade. Now do it for the majority of your gaming life.

Maybe you're of strong will and you can see past it; there are plenty of woman who see no problems with characters like Ivy (Soul Caliber) who looks like she's about a sneeze away from her birthday suit. However, at the very least, it would have to start getting on your nerves that EVERY single male character that you can play as is that mounting friends game (and now my computer is unclean after that video )

Besides that, both of those games (based on the trailer at least) were part tongue-in-cheek. Let's try sticking those types of characters into a "serious" (not that those games are a joke but they are clearly going into it with a fun intent) game.

Let's have the greased up speedo guy as Nathan Drake (Uncharted) in a shootout with terrorists. Let's have greased up speedo guy as Joel (last of us) as he is getting attacked by zombies. Let's have greased up speedo guy as Mario (Super Mario) as he stomps on some goombas. How about a sexy Ezio (Assassins Creed) as he "mounts" a Templar with his "hidden blade" (teehee! I'm so childish!)?

Again, maybe I'm wrong and everyone would be perfectly happy playing as S&M version of their favorite heroes but I have to assume that the majority of male gamers would not be happy campers if we switched the roles around. I don't think the ladies of the gaming world are offended that Ivy exists (or at least the majority of them); I think they don't like that Ivy seems to be the heavy majority.

 

[WeepingAngels]

It all comes down to what women complain about. If women were to begin complaining about violence in video games then it would quickly become a hot topic. I am sure most of you remember how quickly sexism became a hot topic.

 

[veloper]

I've heard this argument a lot, but I'm still very unclear how you can support one thing, but the other thing appears to be wrong.

Maybe it boils down to some people are more uncomfortable with the idea of kids playing violent games than kids playing sexy games. Normal teens don't generally need a lot of suppression to keep them from murdering eachother, but keeping their horny urges under control may be a bit harder. (Honestly, I myself too prefer kids playing (cartoonish) violent games to kids watching porn.)

It could also be a case of assigning different values. For a conservative violence may be sort of okay when directed at the wrong sort, while sex is the devil. Some feminists may approach the subject from the other side and still have a stronger reaction against sexualized female characters, than with guns, simply because of their interests.

Anyway, if you can find one poster holding the one view, but not the other, you may still have an argument against them. Not that it matters, because shooters and naughty pixels are not going anywhere. They sell and they even fit neatly under the M-rating, so that's how it will be.

 

[Phasmal]

Gethsemani already explained the potential for people being desensitised better than I could, so I'll skip this.
Frankly, I don't give a fuck if you're sexist or not because of video games. I just want better represention for my demographic in a medium I care about.
This video is good for explaining that. It's talking about comics but I'm sure we can relate.

It all comes down to what women complain about. If women were to begin complaining about violence in video games then it would quickly become a hot topic. I am sure most of you remember how quickly sexism became a hot topic.

Are you being serious?
If so, I would just like everyone to look at this comment in silence for a few seconds. Just let it sink in. (Then maybe report it for being sexist garbage)

 

[WeepingAngels]

Gethsemani already explained the potential for people being desensitised better than I could, so I'll skip this.
Frankly, I don't give a fuck if you're sexist or not because of video games. I just want better represention for my demographic in a medium I care about.
This video is good for explaining that. It's talking about comics but I'm sure we can relate.

It all comes down to what women complain about. If women were to begin complaining about violence in video games then it would quickly become a hot topic. I am sure most of you remember how quickly sexism became a hot topic.

Are you being serious?
If so, I would just like everyone to look at this comment in silence for a few seconds. Just let it sink in. (Then maybe report it for being sexist garbage)

Do explain what makes an observation that society is quick to respond to the complaints of women, sexist?

 

[dyre]

Violence in games doesn't really promote a certain belief. Now, if there were games that actively tried to promote violence or preach violence to be the best method for solving problems (contrast to most games in which it's simply the default way, with no normative stance on whether it's the best way, since no other methods are available), then that would be an issue. Someone whose exposure to media came primarily from those hypothetical violence-promoting games might have their perceptions on violence subtly changed over time.

Media, whether it be games, films, books, etc, is the primary platform for propaganda. Any one game/film/book is unlikely to change your perspective on violence, or on women. BUT if, hypothetically, throughout your life, every book you read, every film you watch, and every game you play, portrays the female characters as weak-willed, intellectually indifferent, and needing manly protagonists to save them, then that would have a negative effect on your perceptions of women. Most people don't really have opinions...they are given opinions by society. And if all of a society's media preaches one thing, then most people are likely to believe it.

Disclaimer: I don't watch MovieBob, I don't like MovieBob, and I have no idea if my stance on the matter is the same as MovieBob's.

 

[Phasmal]

Do explain what makes an observation that society is quick to respond to the complaints of women, sexist?

You're saying that the only reason this is an issue AT ALL is because women complain about it, and you want me to explain why that is a sexist statement?

There are many people, female or not, who recognise issues with gender and video games, and the idea that the only reason we talk about this at all is because society is rushing to the side of a bunch of complaining women is just... well.. dumb.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Do explain what makes an observation that society is quick to respond to the complaints of women, sexist?

You're saying that the only reason this is an issue AT ALL is because women complain about it, and you want me to explain why that is a sexist statement?

There are many people, female or not, who recognise issues with gender and video games, and the idea that the only reason we talk about this at all is because society is rushing to the side of a bunch of complaining women is just... well.. dumb.

You want examples besides how quickly this became a hot topic?

Did you know that in this world of equality we have many things designated ONLY for women. Women only parking, gyms, subways, restaurants, etc... These are the result of society bending over backwards to address the complaints of women.

It isn't sexist when it's the truth.

Here's some links, if you care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P075lsYd6VI&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK2o7j4y_RU&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agFZGuQrSVg&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY0RDGw8iGg&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

 

[Phasmal]

You want examples besides how quickly this became a hot topic?

Did you know that in this world of equality we have many things designated ONLY for women. Women only parking, gyms, subways, restaurants, etc... These are the result of society bending over backwards to address the complaints of women.

It isn't sexist when it's the truth.

Okay.
I can see we're not going to be agreeing any time soon, and since I don't have regular computer access, I'll have to leave this here.
Besides, you kind of went to a weird place here. We're talking about gaming, remember?
And as far as I can see, this didn't `quickly` become a hot topic. This has been building for many many years and then it just suddenly kind of exploded, and everyone who wasn't aware of it before is all like `Why all these wimminz coming out of nowhere to complain about my vidya games?`

And I've kind of run out of fucks to give for those people.

 

[tippy2k2]

snipped

The issue I see is that those characters (Geralt, Sam, and Kratos for your examples) is two-fold:

1. Maybe I'm wrong because I'm a guy so therefore don't see them that way (any woman want to chime in on this point?), I can't imagine that Sam Fisher, Geralt, and Kratos gets the ladies hearts racing. Besides that, it feels like there are a LOT more normal men than there are normal woman. As you stated, this might be a confirmation bias but there are very few female characters that wear more clothing than is absolutely necessary before it steps into porn where it doesn't seem to be the case with guys. Off the top of my head, I can think of Alyx Vance, Samus (until Team Ninja got their hands on her ), Nintendo characters (since they're all more cartoony), and Naughty Dog characters (they seem to have a great track record of memorable and good characters period).

2. I don't (and I don't think the people complaining) have problems with the characters who dress the way that they dress (male or female) if there is an actual viable reason. Fisher/Snake wear stealth suits so it makes sense. Kratos is in the roman ages so it makes sense. Gerlat is usually banging someone because he gets around so that makes sense. I'm sure that they do exist but it seems the eye candy for eye candy Male hero is a lot rarer than the eye candy for eye candy female.

As for the article in question, the fact that there is sexism against both male and females doesn't make either of them OK.

With everything said however, I do believe it's getting better. We're not there yet but a lot of gaming's big critical hits of last year (Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, GTAV) seem to be showing that progress is being made. I don't know if all the discussion showing up was the catalyst or if game companies are naturally progressing to better characters (which usually ditches the one-note eye candy) but I feel we're trending in the right direction.

 

[generals3]

You want examples besides how quickly this became a hot topic?

Did you know that in this world of equality we have many things designated ONLY for women. Women only parking, gyms, subways, restaurants, etc... These are the result of society bending over backwards to address the complaints of women.

It isn't sexist when it's the truth.

Here's some links, if you care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P075lsYd6VI&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK2o7j4y_RU&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agFZGuQrSVg&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY0RDGw8iGg&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

Let's not forget Remi Gaillard's latest video. When he made videos in which he pranked random people in random ways, it was all good. But when he makes prank video where he pretends to have sex with women... Ooooooh the horror. As if pretending to have sex with women on a prank video is worse than preventing cops to do their jobs, throwing people's stuff away, etc. I mean in that particular video there wasn't even any physical contact with any of the "victims".

 

[WeepingAngels]

You want examples besides how quickly this became a hot topic?

Did you know that in this world of equality we have many things designated ONLY for women. Women only parking, gyms, subways, restaurants, etc... These are the result of society bending over backwards to address the complaints of women.

It isn't sexist when it's the truth.

Here's some links, if you care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P075lsYd6VI&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK2o7j4y_RU&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agFZGuQrSVg&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY0RDGw8iGg&list=PLwwfs0zUhl7SGGvpi-7TxyVWYXW9uHzUd

Let's not forget Remi Gaillard's latest video. When he made videos in which he pranked random people in random ways, it was all good. But when he makes prank video where he pretends to have sex with women... Ooooooh the horror. As if pretending to have sex with women on a prank video is worse than preventing cops to do their jobs, throwing people's stuff away, etc. I mean in that particular video there wasn't even any physical contact with any of the "victims".

ABC News did a hidden camera thing where they recorded the reactions of people walking by under two conditions:

1) A women beating up on a man

2) A man beating up on a women

I am sure no one needs to watch the video to know how that went down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks&index=22&list=FL6bT_VXeMBK_kJu44A2WFRQ

 

[tippy2k2]

snip

You're quite right about a lot of progress and looking at the positives as well (something I did throw in at the end of my post but I could have elaborated on a lot more). Also, how could I have forgotten Faith!?! I loved Faith!

As for your last line

The key issue is separating sexiness from sexist. The two have been linked and the reason for the link is because of male developers making said characters when Barbie (yes the doll) shows that well it's not just guys who do it.

That's where I think everyone is going to run into problems with one another because everyone has a different definition what's sexist versus exploiting sexy. For example...

I don't think anyone from any fighting games is sexist (yes, even "Oh shit I sneezed and my outfit popped off" Ivy) because everyone in those games look like their clothing went through a wood-chipper before the fight started. So it sounds weird (because it is kind of weird) but the "sexism" cancels itself out that way to me. That's a view that many are going to disagree with. Same with my "does it make sense in context of the story?" reasoning of why characters like Geralt and Zero Suit Samus look sexy but it's not sexist.

And to end my post on a happier note, I think everyone can agree with this:

Oddly there's more a lack of female protagonist in general which is more of an issue.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I've heard this argument a lot, but I'm still very unclear how you can support one thing, but the other thing appears to be wrong.

When people discuss violence in video games, many agree that there is no direct correlation between violence in video games and violence in real life. Therefore, if I were to play a First Person Shooter, I would feel the need to shoot people in real life.

But, when sexism is discussed in games, many say it's not the same thing or "false equivalence". I watch a lot of Bob "Moviebob" Chipman's videos, but I'm still a bit confused. How does one thing lead to another? If I can play an FPS, and not shoot someone based on my experience, then how would playing a sexist video game (Let's say Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum-Laude, which for the record was just a terrible game) make me mistreat women?

I do understand sexism does exist, but I'm still unsure how sexism in the media will cause sexism in real life. Through desensitization?

It is a false equivalence because of the size of the acts under discussion vs. a baseline of normal behavior. For a regular person not already inclined to acts of violence in their daily routine (i.e. not a psychopath already) the act of going out and shooting someone is an extreme departure from normal behavior. For the same regular person and the same baseline behavior the act of thinking something (that women should dress in skimpy outfits, that a lack of women at a place, function, in a given situation is basically normal, etc.) is a tiny thing - in comparison to the massive thing of putting one in someone's head.

Now, I'm not agreeing with the whole argument people make that basically amounts to "monkey see, monkey do" in most cases - no. I'm simply pointing out why the label of false equivalence is a valid one in terms of assessing the differences of arguments you brought up here.

Though - if people are arguing that sexism in video games will lead people to like, rape random strangers or beat on their wives - that's, again, a huge departure from the baseline norm and would be closer in value to the argument vs. violence of games will make people go out and commit random acts of violence. Not many people use either one of those arguments with much credibility these days though - barring the Fox News followers.

Sexism isn't just beating women or raping them though - for the record here. Sexism has a large range from the tiny thoughts about the opposite gender (either gender here, sexism isn't limited to misogyny - there's misandry too and sexism covers both of those, lest we forget) to actual actions against them that are non violent (no-girls-allowed/no-boys-allowed policies/acting like that's a policy even if it isn't officially) to actual violent actions against the opposite gender (physical violence, psychological violence, etc.).

 

[Fox12]

Violence can be justified. Sexism, racism, anti-semitism, ect. can never justified. If you're attacked, you are allowed to defend yourself. Typically, in games, if there is violence, your'e playing the "good guy." You're defending the weak, defending yourself, or fighting a villain. When this isn't the case then the game is usually a parody, like Saints Row, or a deconstruction, like Spec Ops. But explain to me a situation in which you would be justified for being sexist, or demeaning women. Replace the word "sexism" in your post with "racism" and tell me if that changes your mind. There are KKK games that are racist. Are those games justifiable based on your argument? I don't play sexist games because I don't support sexism, and I don't want to support developers who are. I also find that sexist games ten to fall into stereotypes and bad writing.

People are allowed to make sexist/racist games if they want, they have that right of free speech. However, I have the right to criticize them for it, and I won't apologize for doing so. Playing a sexist game in real life may not make you sexist, just like playing a racist game may not make you racist. However, by purchasing such games you are interacting in the free market, and telling developers that it is okay to continue making games like this. This will affect how the population as a whole views the medium. There's a reason that Anime and Comic Books have a negative connotation to them.

 

[generals3]

Though - if people are arguing that sexism in video games will lead people to like, rape random strangers or beat on their wives - that's, again, a huge departure from the baseline norm and would be closer in value to the argument vs. violence of games will make people go out and commit random acts of violence. Not many people use either one of those arguments with much credibility these days though - barring the Fox News followers.

Well... The Anita phenomenon begs to differ. She clearly established a link between domestic violence and the Euthanized Damsel trope in her second video and yet she has "lots" of supporters.

Violence can be justified. Sexism, racism, anti-semitism, ect. can never justified.

Tell that to all those who favor "positive discrimination" (which is actually de-facto negative discrimination against the "opposite" group)