"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

[Kahunaburger]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

 

[Setrus]

I dont think anyone is "unpure" or "corrupted" if they have had sex

Bah, and I was all set on charging in yelling "Corrupt me, defile me, make me unpure, PLEASE!"

Awww, and I who love some dirty talk. ;-)

As to the OP's post, agreed on all points, the pressure on both 'parties' is ridiculous and completely unnecessary.

 

[hawkeye52]

I agreed with you completely in your previous post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.367382.14298146], but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

I'm not, but booze is pretty universal. I once had a conversation online with a woman from the Philippines and she had a similar reaction. My reasons are numerous, personal, and would warrant their own thread or blog entry.... but I'll put them all here.

Spoiler

I didn't have friends in high school / had younger friends in college who were nerds / by the time said people started drinking in earnest, they had transferred to another school. My 21st birthday was spent bitterly moving back home from college after not meeting people, not finding a career path, and being forced out by ridiculous course blocking rules that kept me from taking classes in my major. This helped instill a resentment towards alcohol culture.

That and my dad drinks a lot and it's always smelly, annoying, sad, and disgusting to watch. And I like being thin, and all the men in my family developed plump beer guts. Plus, I see no reason to risk getting arrested for that ever, when I can easily avoid being subject to DUI/drunkenness laws. I make bad enough decisions sober and I don't want to risk digging myself deeper into depression. It's expensive. It makes a person have to pee and sometimes vomit. And most importantly, it could potentially interfere with the Prime Directive - experiencing sex to its fullest.

I used to think like you. Then I took about eight pints of cider to the liver. It's not much NOW, since I've moved onto whiskey, but I was what, 22 and never drank before?

Ah, but it sure was fun though.

Really I drunk about 5-7 bottles of Bulmers and was on the verge of throwing up after I was finished. I can say that was the first time I had been drunk and it won't be the last but I will definitly delay it for as long as socially acceptably possible.

It was fun at the time but the after effects of feeling like shit for the next day completely outweighed the benefit of feeling happy (and stupid I bloody hate that feeling) for a few hours that I mainly remember but only significant parts.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement, and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

Edit: My definition especially makes sense when you consider that the reason this has blown up is a cop telling women that they should probably avoid walking around in dark alleys in a bad part of town while "dressed like a slut," which caused a lot of women to get angry, both about victim blaming (because telling someone to lock their doors at night is victim blaming now, apparently) and about slut shaming (because using the word "slut" in the sense that I explained is now apparently the same thing as slut in the sense that your link described.) If you want to fight a battle over the term "slut" as I explained it being a bad thing, be my guest, but it's disingenuous to use the definition given on that feminist website in this context.

 

[Snowbell]

Not all men are like that.

That's exactly why I included the phrase 'this man and likely many others' rather than saying 'all men', I'm happy to say that most men don't think that way at all and are actually pretty nice chaps, it's just the ones who do think that way are ruining society for me

 

[Relish in Chaos]

How many times do I have to say this about slut shaming.

It is easy for any women to walk into a public location, individually tell every guy she wants to take them home and sleep with them and have an extremely high probability that at least one of the guys would accept.

Guys can not.

It'd depend on the (subjective) attractiveness of the woman herself, and what kind of guys she was talking to. I mean, there'd be an extremely low probability that at least one guy would accept if she walked into, say, a gay bar and did that.

Also, what's your point?

 

[Kahunaburger]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

 

[Shadie777]

To me it did seem like the OP was singling men out as the main problem. Many people did bring this up, but some of them used improper language and escalated the problem. Seriously, I sighed with relief when I found posts by Damien Black and TheVioletBandit which brought this up without insulting the OP or feminists.

Anyway, your summary is a much more understandable argument. if the OP presented the argument in such a non-biased way, I would have no problem.

Now I really need to leave this thread before it turns sexist...

I felt a little bit demonized there. I was being told I have to stop using any language within feminist theory because I'm being too judgmental. Oh, and I was told that I was a man with daddy issues. Lilith was accused of having tits. We're both men.

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. I am assuming you are talking about my comment about improper language, right? In that sentence I am specifically talking about language that was used to insult the OP. Even so, I am sorry about demonising you. That was not my intent.

My only problem with the OP's argument is that it is presented in a biased way. In my view, it seems to single out men as the problem.

 

[Guardian of Nekops]

also if I guy has "virgin" as a pre-requisite...yeah..fuck you

I know right?

HOW DARE PEOPLE HAVE PREFERENCES??? HOW DARE THEY?!?!? DAMN FUCKING SEXIST PIGS!

If you yourself are a virgin who is waiting for marriage (or true love, or whatever you're waiting for), and you expect your partner to be the same... that's cool, I guess. As long as you're willing to go through it yourself, you're good to go.

However, guys who have sex with a different woman every week, in a casual sort of way, and expect all the girls they meet to stay away from everyone except them so they can be first ARE assholes. It's not so much sexism as hypocrisy and... faulty logic.

That said, everyone should absolutely feel free to refuse to sleep with whoever they want, no matter how stupid their reasons. You're absolutely allowed to be an asshole in MANY different ways, and that's in no way limited to sexual preferences and double standards.

It's frowned upon, though.

OP: Yes, guys are definitely expected to have more sex with girls than girls are expected to have with guys. However, the answer seems pretty similar for both... anyone who can't accept you for who you are, for what you want to do with your own body (within reason... be at least fairly safe and take care of yourselves, kids, you're going to need those body parts to work later) obviously isn't that great of a friend.

Hang out with the folks who can accept your choices and do what's right for you. Don't let anyone pressure you into having sex or into being a nun (though, if you have doubts about having sex, it's always easier to wait than it is to undo it. However, if all parties are ready and raring to go, and you're all of age and sober and safe and blah blah blah, go nuts. Anywho). It's not their choice. You were given your own motive force for a reason, and there are way too many cool folks who will support you for who you are out there for you to bother much with the judgemental folks.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

And as a feminist(or at least a woman heavily influenced by it), I am, quite frankly, disgusted by the situation of gender both ways. Women should not be expected to not have sex, and men should not be expected to have sex.

I would like to add to this, there is some minor slut shaming for men and virgin shaming for women. I think the virgin-whore dichotomy is worse for women. But the pressure for men to have lots of sex is fairly unique and also downright disgusting. It's almost like all men are expected to be imperialists sexually. Especially if you're a young man and not some old political figure. And I don't think men would be expected to be sexually active if women weren't expected to be sexually pure.

Hell yeah! Preach it sista! **fist in the air**

....

But yeah, I totally agree with everything you said. I've participated in Slut Walk [http://slutwalknyc.com/] because I too hate that double standard, particularly how it is applied to women.

So yeah, slut and proud.

 

[Artemis923]

I have lots of virgin friends.

Do I rub in their faces that I get to lay entwined with a gorgeous woman as I smash her portcullis with my battering ram, while their siege equipment goes unused?

No, I do not. Their sex life ain't my business.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" and "shaming" did individually. "Slut" is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

 

[Aprilgold]

I have NEVER seen a man think they are in the minority, ever.

Then you don't have much experience with anti-feminists.

2. The way feminists twist issues so they are the victim.

It's not twisting. It's the truth. Treating women as an object of sexual conquest isn't exactly flattering.

Most of the problems men face in society due to sexist double standards, is because of male supremacist thought.

bad hygiene

Then, shouldn't people focus on their unhealthy lifestyle or whatever, instead of attacking their sex life? Some people don't want to have sex, and that's okay.

Also, bachelors and virgins aren't the same thing. There are many "bachelors" who have loads of sex, and are praised for it.

women whose traditional job is to delay the lay

Thus, the social problem of "slut shaming".

The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.

There's nothing wrong with giving up on courtship.

And there's no reason for men to be eager to have sex or women to try to put it off. This in itself is a very uncharming aspect of human culture. Men shouldn't be treating sex as a gift or reward to be earned. And women shouldn't be afraid to have sex when they want to. This whole thing is making the dating world very predatory and sexist.

I myself have seen examples of people who think that feminists are one hundred percent good or bad but have never seen anyone tackle why woman were treated as objects or why men think virginity is bad. Simply put, gender roles. A giant role in society as a woman, is to give birth to a happy baby boy and to be a house mom, while with many guys its to secure a financially successful job and, overall, to be masculine. Terms like Masculinity and the Feminine nail down why gender roles are utter BS. A woman can be as masculine as a man as a man can be as feminine as a woman. There has been no study to show that men were built to be stronger then a female, or in any way having or lacking something a female can do and vice versa outside of genitalia which we can even change through surgery.

The reason I dislike Feminists is because they never see the correct answer to the problem. If we were to drop every singe pre-notion of gender roles in modern society and slowly change to a woman figure for the army and a man figure for the cooking class in certain ads then it would start to bring a gender neutral society into play.

The only way to get rid of bigotry is to spot hidden traces of it in our own society. Thus its one of the best ways to create a better tommorow is through destroying what is wrong with our culture today.

I only dislike feminists for two reasons, not noticing a at least decent way to make a gender neutral society, which is what they want and for thinking that males today want it to be like it was back in the 17th century. I'm sick and tired of being demonized, not on my personal views or philosophies but on my fucking gender of all things. Your doing what the sexist pigs did long ago, which is demonizing others based purely on gender and using sterotypes to make yourself seem more correct. Obviously I don't mean you YOU Lilith, I just mean in general.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said up above, a gender neutral society is one that doesn't have gender roles.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" "nose cone" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" "nose" and "shaming" "cone" did individually. "Slut" "Nose" is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

See the problem with your semantics argument?

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this opinion from, because it's clearly not by keeping up on current events. Birth control is a particularly hot-button issue right now.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" "nose cone" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" "nose" and "shaming" "cone" did individually. "Slut" nose is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

See the problem with your semantics argument?

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this opinion from, because it's clearly not by keeping up on current events. Birth control is a particularly hot-button issue right now.

"Nose cone" means the nose of the plane. It's a figurative use of the word. "Slut Shaming" is a literal use of both words, but a misuse of the first one. And yeah, birth control is a perennial hot button issue... but it's not longer the domain of self described feminists. Don't get me wrong, you can't really be a feminist and be against it, but it's become something like taxes and budgets at this point; a political football that politicians pass around for points. "Slut shaming" is still the exclusive domain of the feminist movement, it's getting people really excited in a way that birth control hasn't in quite a while.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

To me it did seem like the OP was singling men out as the main problem. Many people did bring this up, but some of them used improper language and escalated the problem. Seriously, I sighed with relief when I found posts by Damien Black and TheVioletBandit which brought this up without insulting the OP or feminists.

Anyway, your summary is a much more understandable argument. if the OP presented the argument in such a non-biased way, I would have no problem.

Now I really need to leave this thread before it turns sexist...

I felt a little bit demonized there. I was being told I have to stop using any language within feminist theory because I'm being too judgmental. Oh, and I was told that I was a man with daddy issues. Lilith was accused of having tits. We're both men.

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. I am assuming you are talking about my comment about improper language, right? In that sentence I am specifically talking about language that was used to insult the OP. Even so, I am sorry about demonising you. That was not my intent.

My only problem with the OP's argument is that it is presented in a biased way. In my view, it seems to single out men as the problem.

Whoops! I'm making so many phrasing errors this thread it isn't even funny. No, I'm fine with what you've said. I was talking about other people in this thread, with that first case in specific being about one of the people you were defending, Damien Black. I apologize for the misunderstanding. My bad.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" "nose cone" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" "nose" and "shaming" "cone" did individually. "Slut" nose is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

See the problem with your semantics argument?

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this opinion from, because it's clearly not by keeping up on current events. Birth control is a particularly hot-button issue right now.

"Nose cone" means the nose of the plane. It's a figurative use of the word. "Slut Shaming" is a literal use of both words, but a misuse of the first one.

No, it's a specific term for a specific thing. I'm sorry you don't like the specific words that comprise the term, but your preferences don't really weigh into what the term means, whether the term is an accurate description of the thing it was created to describe, or how people use it.

And yeah, birth control is a perennial hot button issue... but it's not longer the domain of self described feminists. Don't get me wrong, you can't really be a feminist and be against it, but it's become something like taxes and budgets at this point; a political football that politicians pass around for points. "Slut shaming" is still the exclusive domain of the feminist movement, it's getting people really excited in a way that birth control hasn't in quite a while.

Wow, you really haven't been keeping up with current events, have you?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I think the problem is less that there's a lot of men who aren't 100% positive about women, and more that certain feminists -- sadly, the loudest ones -- have started doing some very silly things, and they see men who don't support those things as being just as misogynist as a man who would have refused her the right to vote.

Considering that feminism essentially boils down the belief that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender and is therefore pretty common in our society, you're bound to have some crazy people that espouse it. The fact that some elements in society think that the beliefs of a few crazy people reflect badly on feminism is mind-boggling to me.

This whole slut shaming thing is a good example. Both men /and/ women are slut shamed. It is entirely possible to be so indiscriminately promiscuous that you gross people out; it's not a women's rights issue.

Actually, that's not what it is at all. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

Real women's issues these days are things like birth control, abortion, and the glass ceiling, but for some reason people don't get excited about defending the first two or attacking the third in the way they do slut shaming.

Sorry, what? I'm pretty sure you'll find people who have strong opinions on all of those issues.

Because that's what slut shaming is about: it's not about "women who like sex," it never has been. It's about promiscuous idiots who nobody wants to catch STDs from.

The term has a specific established meaning, and if you think the term in fact means something else, expect to be confused when encountering people using the term's established meaning.

I'm saying that if feminists think that "slut shaming" is "the idea of shaming and/or attacking a woman or a girl for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging sexual feelings, and/or acting on sexual feelings," then they have nothing to worry about, because that's not how the word "slut" is used in western society. In Western society, the definition I gave is what actually happens. As for the rest of it, yes, you'll find people who get excited about the issues I listed. But they aren't currently the main thrust of the feminist movement; for some bizarre reason, slut shaming is.

Are you pulling my leg, or are you seriously arguing that birth control and a woman's right to choose aren't central issues for the feminist movement?

...and that no woman is ever attacked or looked down upon for enjoying sex in the West?

...and that a term that describes a specific thing is somehow less valid than what someone who is unfamiliar with the term might guess it means?

I'm saying that slut shaming is currently the big "in the public consciousness" part of the feminist movement,

Oh my, I feel a futurama clip coming on.

and that yeah, we are at a point in society where people in general are expected to have had sex at some point. If there really is the kind of slut shaming you're talking about going on, then it's just to the extent that virgin shaming is -- largely young assholes trying to assert intragroup dominance. And excuse me for taking issue with a non-technical term being redefined like that. Call it "sex shaming," "intercourse shaming," or what have you, but it's not "slut shaming."

The term didn't exist before its current usage. It was literally coined to describe the behavior people use it to describe today. This is the equivalent of you getting mad because a "nose cone" doesn't have nostrils.

Can I borrow that Futurama clip? "slut shaming" "nose cone" put together may not have existed before its current usage, but "slut" "nose" and "shaming" "cone" did individually. "Slut" nose is the word that has been redefined for no reason here; you're going to have people disagreeing with the idea of it as long as you use the term.

See the problem with your semantics argument?

And yes, "slut shaming" is one of the current hot button issues, probably the easiest to get people fired up about. At this point, women's health issues just aren't fresh enough to get people excited. They've become campaign talking points and political issues, not the face of a movement -- and I find that sad. I find it especially sad that the glass ceiling is almost never used in anything but a rhetorical sense; where's the pressure for equal pay? It's really not there. There's apparently more important issues at the moment, and it seems that slut shaming is one of the big ones.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this opinion from, because it's clearly not by keeping up on current events. Birth control is a particularly hot-button issue right now.

"Nose cone" means the nose of the plane. It's a figurative use of the word. "Slut Shaming" is a literal use of both words, but a misuse of the first one.

No, it's a specific term for a specific thing. I'm sorry you don't like the specific words that comprise the term, but your preferences don't really weigh into what the term means, whether the term is an accurate description of the thing it was created to describe, or how people use it.

And yeah, birth control is a perennial hot button issue... but it's not longer the domain of self described feminists. Don't get me wrong, you can't really be a feminist and be against it, but it's become something like taxes and budgets at this point; a political football that politicians pass around for points. "Slut shaming" is still the exclusive domain of the feminist movement, it's getting people really excited in a way that birth control hasn't in quite a while.

Wow, you really haven't been keeping up with current events, have you?

Alright, you're not getting the semantics here: "nose cone" is a specific term for a specific thing, but the "nose" part is only figuratively a nose; it is the nose, or tip, of the plane. "On the nose" and so on. As for birth control, yes, it's a hot button issue. But it's been several years since people were marching in the streets over it; it's a long, slow burning war, not a hot fresh battle.