"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

[LilithSlave]

I will ask you again: why do you think there is so little porn for women out there?

I like how that, because you didn't like the response you got the first time, you think it's a good idea to ask the same thing again.

Cultural and social norms? Ridiculous. The porn industry makes what makes them a profit.

NOT ridiculous! And you seem to think that cultural and social norms are not related to what many people think is profitable? Of course they are.

Just because something is profitable does not mean it not a part of something bad. It's just like the problems with the video game industry, people may think primary audience is white males. That doesn't many the tendency any less problematic. White males should not be the primary target for video games and people of other groups would be just as interested if they were just as catered to.

People who are supposedly not in the audience aren't naturally not in the audience. For instance, it's not black people's fault they aren't seen as the primary target audience for video games. And it's not women's fault they're not seen as the target audience for porn.

And mainstream porn does more than not much cater to women's desires at all. It tends to portray an incredibly degrading image of women.

You're blaming women for not having an industry, that nobody wants to cater to them, because they're not interested. But it's because nobody wants to cater to them, that they're not interested. And again, to add to that, most porn doesn't just not cater to them, but gives arguably the most consistently offensive portray of women of ANY media. The porn industry is incredibly exploitative of women, even if the women involved are consenting, confident, and not in any way pressured emotionally to take part in a sex act.

 

[Rblade]

the most interesting part is a woman trying to argue why virgin shaming is an issue among men. If your not a man you can argue striving for the alpha man position in the pack is stupid, but thats just hardwired in our "wanting to pass our genes along" system. Hate it or love it, every man deep down feels the need to prove himself. Thats where sexual conquests, phalus size, skill in sport and gear item level of your paladin rear their ugly head.

my second observation after glancing over this bohemoth, is that I think this is mostly a high school thing. In college and after male and female "sluts" get similar reactions. Either admiration, indifference or jealous scorn.

once you get past the "you can drink anywhere in the world legally" age people generally stop openly caring about the way you choose to live your life. They might think it, they might post about it on the internet, but in the end nobody REALLY cares.

 

[LilithSlave]

the most interesting part is a woman trying to argue why virgin shaming is an issue among men.

Oh geez, the irony here is that what led to this topic, was a masculinist arguing how horrible feminism is, because while women face slut shaming, men face virgin shaming, which is a big problem that feminists should care about, but in his mind, don't.

So if I don't care about virgin shaming, I'm a filthy, hypocritical, misandrist feminist, but if I take up a fight against virgin shaming, I'm an ignorant woman who doesn't realize what being a man is because I'm not one. How quaint.

Hate it or love it, every man deep down feels the need to prove himself.

Gosh, all this hardwired stuff again. I wish I had just a penny for every time I've heard this unfounded abuse of sociobiology. I'd be rich just off the pennies, enough to fill an ocean.

You don't speak for every man. And heck, if you're so adept in your knowledge of what you think the male brain is. Please do bestow upon us your enlightening neurological data. That because of how men have loads of sperm they can shoot out each day, that they have spots in their brain, hardwire, dedicated to being a social problem that wishes to dominate over women and every possible group.

You know, just because men have a "hardwired" or "instinctual" desire to have sex, and are able to essentially impregnate people per day. And that we're wired to have sex for the survival of the species. Does not mean that all men have these desires for sexual conquest. That's not how "instinct" works. At all. Being "hardwired" would mean something like men had evolved, and there was literally evidence in the mind, in the brain, of things dedicated towards driving men toward multiple sex partners. Which there is no evidence for. And to act otherwise, is just to be part of a continued slew of misappropriating terms like "hardwired" and "instinct" and sociobiology in general.

This needs to stop, because it's sad, and ignorant, and not any better than Creation "science". And far, far too common.

 

[rosac]

I'm a virgin at uni, its ok. It gets brought up every now and again, but to be honest, noone really takes it that seriously. I can get girls, even more than some of those who aren't virgin, I just never "seal the deal" mostly due to my personal choice/lack of confidence.

As with most banter, you have to be prepared to take it and give some out in return, its only an issue if you let it get to you, and that's more a problem with yourself than your peers in my opinion.

(And before anyone says anything, yes bullying is a problem, but it isnt always the bully's fault, they may just be joking around and trying to laugh with you not at you. If it does upset you, tell them and they should stop. If they dont, try to avoid them, it worked for me during my school years.)

 

[MomoElektra]

The only difference in porn is the people are naked and occasionally, the woman gets degraded a little, because a small percentage of people like me (including men AND women, by the way) enjoy stuff like that.

It's funny how you can recognize the problem and at the same time belittle it. A "little" degraded? Honestly?

The only porn that does not do that is amateur, lesbian and gay porn, the latter because there's hardly any women in it.

 

[LilithSlave]

Oh look! Its this again! Lets debunk it a second time, shall we?

You haven't debunked it a first time. And you're not debunking it now, because you're wrong.

And there's more to pandering than sex. The vast majority of video games star white males. The majority also pander to a male power fantasy. And a lot of developers have readily admitted that they shy away from creating female characters because they don't think gamers want to play as a female.

Which is a sign of all sorts of problems. It's sad and problematic if developers don't want to make female lead characters. And it's even sadder if most gamers don't want to play as a female character.

Unfortunately I dont know any porn sites that have a top 10 list of upcoming porn movies, but im sure if there were, the results would be simular. Theres more porn out there for women than you think, you just havent found it yet.

I wouldn't be surprised if I looked at more porn than you. I spend a lot of time looking at porn and giving positive and negative critiques about its content and presentation. Especially yaoi, which is directed at women. I think I may have shared this before, but the majority of my irl friends are yaoi fangirls. By the way, I thoroughly admit there are some problems in yaoi, as well. The "seme" and "uke" thing can have some unfortunate implications quite often. I have the feeling that many of the folks in yaoi have internalized some sexist images. Or just are too afraid to change the status quo, because that's how yaoi has been done for so long. It's still a lot better than the images that mainstream pornography presents. And yes, yaoi fans, or more commonly known, "yaoi fangirls", are in the minority. And no major porn publishing outlet is interested in catering to them.

I am very, very certain, that the mainstream pornography industry has HUGE problems of male privilege. Not just being focused on catering to men, but on degrading women.

 

[MomoElektra]

The only difference in porn is the people are naked and occasionally, the woman gets degraded a little, because a small percentage of people like me (including men AND women, by the way) enjoy stuff like that.

It's funny how you can recognize the problem and at the same time belittle it. A "little" degraded? Honestly?

The only porn that does not do that is amateur, lesbian and gay porn, the latter because there's hardly any women in it.

Amateur, lesbian, gay, BBW, anal (some women enjoy it you know), blonde, dancing, orgy, threesome, vintage... Just a few porn genres from the front page of Pornhub that are not necessarily degrading to women. Unless you consider a woman enjoying herself to be degrading because a man is somewhere in the picture, which would not surprise me in the slightest.

No, I call degrading her degrading. Like, you know, because that's what the word usually means. It's interesting that you mention "(some women enjoy it you know)", because I know that and it's not in dispute. Degradation can be exciting in role playing or what not.

But we were not discussing if women enjoyed it (the actors), not even if some women enjoyed watching that (because I'm sure some do, sometimes I like it myself) but if it was very often degrading. As in: Showing them being degraded.

It is basically standard nowadays. It wouldn't be that bad if there were more variety, if it were just one thing out of many (i.e. as in role playing, not for real like it is now), but there rarely is any. In mainstream porn at least.

Im not acknowledging a problem. There is no problem. Some people like degrading porn - so what? Whats the problem with that? You tell me.

There is too much of it. It's kind of like the only porn that exists noways (safe the ones I mentioned, which cater each to a very specific sub group, too). Too little variation.

Ignore the hentai shit for a few seconds, because no one here watches that shit so its irrelevant.

Translation: Ignore that relevant part that works in your favor because ignoring it works in my favor and I want to be right on this.

 

[axlryder]

I wouldn't be surprised if I looked at more porn than you. I spend a lot of time looking at porn and giving positive and negative critiques about its content and presentation. Especially yaoi, which is directed at women. I think I may have shared this before, but the majority of my irl friends are yaoi fangirls.

This has to be one of the most hilariously straight faced things I've ever read. "Hmmm, that money shot looking particularly degrading, I'm pretty sure she said she didn't want it in her hair. Ah well, let's see what Anal Justice has in store; I hope he gets verbal consent beforehand or so help me god I'm going to take a point off".

 

[Rblade]

the most interesting part is a woman trying to argue why virgin shaming is an issue among men.

Oh geez, the irony here is that what led to this topic, was a masculinist arguing how horrible feminism is, because while women face slut shaming, men face virgin shaming, which is a big problem that feminists should care about, but in his mind, don't.

So if I don't care about virgin shaming, I'm a filthy, hypocritical, misandrist feminist, but if I take up a fight against virgin shaming, I'm an ignorant woman who doesn't realize what being a man is because I'm not one. How quaint.

Hate it or love it, every man deep down feels the need to prove himself.

Gosh, all this hardwired stuff again. I wish I had just a penny for every time I've heard this unfounded abuse of sociobiology. I'd be rich just off the pennies, enough to fill an ocean.

You don't speak for every man. And heck, if you're so adept in your knowledge of what you think the male brain is. Please do bestow upon us your enlightening neurological data. That because of how men have loads of sperm they can shoot out each day, that they have spots in their brain, hardwire, dedicated to being a social problem that wishes to dominate over women and every possible group.

You know, just because men have an "hardwired" or "instinctual" desire to have sex, and are able to essentially impregnate people per day. And that we're wired to have sex for the survival of the species. Does not mean that all men have these desires for sexual conquest. That's not how "instinct" works. At all. Being "hardwired" would mean something like men had evolved, and there was literally evidence in the mind, in the brain, of things dedicated towards driving men toward multiple sex partners. Which there is no evidence for. And to act otherwise, is just to be part of a continued slew of misappropriating terms like "hardwired" and "instinct" and sociobiology in general.

This needs to stop, because it's sad, and ignorant, and not any better than Creation "science". And far, far too common.

Do I think that the different approach to the way we treat men and women needs to stop? yes.

Do I think it's fair women are approached as pure beings that can't "defile" themselfs and men as sexual predators? no.

Are men different from women? yes, ofcourse they are, they are driven by a completely different set of hormones. This does NOT excuse discrimination.

Do I think all men feel they need to measure up against their peers? absolutely, scream all you want about evidence in the brain but it's all over the animal kingdom. Evolution.

Should we take our massive brains and fight that kind of primal instinct? definitly.

and as a final statement. Along the lines of my last, ignored, point about this not mattering that much once people get older and stop giving a rats ass about other peoples hobbies. And also my biggest problem with feminist and every kind of lobby ever. Most people are of moderate opinion and can't really be bothered until someone starts screaming in their face about it. Thats when they get defensive.

Fight the real problem like salary inequality and oppresion. We will iron out the seams once we leveled the playing field

 

[LilithSlave]

Actually, I just did. Twice.

No, you didn't. Try spending a little more time attempting to prove your case instead of just stating you're right or that you've done so before. You have no only debunked my claims, you haven't even so much as approached a decent argument against them thus far.

Ignore the hentai shit for a few seconds, because no one here watches that shit so its irrelevant.

I'm not talking about hentai. I'm talking about mainstream pornography.

I have twice asked you what the problem is and you have failed to answer. You just splutter "B-b-but... Degrading! What? Whats the problem with that? Well its... Its... Its degrading!"

If you don't see what the problem is with degrading women, then you're not even attempting to hide being a misogynist. And you need to shape up, morally. Just my advice, I don't think that saying "degrading to women, so what?" is something to be particularly proud of.

Hey Lilith, guess what. Yeah. Yep, its coming. You finally did. You earned your spot on my ignore list.

Oh, do we have those? After basically saying "degrading to women, so what?" I would hope that you yourself have earned an "ignore list" on many users here.

This has to be one of the most hilariously straight faced things I've ever read. "Hmmm, that money shot looking particularly degrading, I'm pretty sure she said she didn't want it in her hair. Ah well, let's see what Anal Justice has in store, probably a wholesome morality tale about the betterment of both sexes".

I'm as sexual as anyone. I just think that people can get their rocks off without being degrading to women about it.

And how would I possibly be able to critique and make statements about the state of mainstream porn if I didn't look into it at all? Even hardcore anti-porn feminists have read quite a few copies of Hustler. Which I don't think I qualify as, by the way, but instead a "sex positive feminist". Which I don't seem to have come off as much of to you.

It's astounding how you think I'm giving feminism a bad name, but you're adamant in defending the video game and porn industry from any criticism. As if neither have anything wrong with them at all.

 

[axlryder]

This has to be one of the most hilariously straight faced things I've ever read. "Hmmm, that money shot looking particularly degrading, I'm pretty sure she said she didn't want it in her hair. Ah well, let's see what Anal Justice has in store, probably a wholesome morality tale about the betterment of both sexes".

I'm as sexual as anyone. I just think that people can get their rocks off without being degrading to women about it.

And how would I possibly be able to critique and make statements about the state of mainstream porn if I didn't look into it at all? Even hardcore anti-porn feminists have read quite a few copies of Hustler.

Well don't generalize all hardcore anti-porn feminists, but the point was that the way you wrote it made it fucking hilarious. Also, avoid generalizing what people can and can't "get their rocks off" to. Some people, I'm sure, are mostly aroused by subjugation and domination. S&M exists in part for this reason.

 

[LilithSlave]

and the majority of gamers are male.

There are quite a few females who play video games. As in, millions of them.

And there'd be a lot more interested and even invested in the hobby, if the industry wasn't so directed toward catering to men's fantasies. And instead, I dunno, have more games like Portal or Scary girl.

But we were not discussing if women enjoyed it (the actors), not even if some women enjoyed watching that (because I'm sure some do, sometimes I like it myself) but if it was very often degrading. As in: Showing them being degraded.

It is basically standard nowadays. It wouldn't be that bad if there were more variety, if it were just one thing out of many (i.e. as in role playing, not for real like it is now), but there rarely is any. In mainstream porn at least.

Exactly. The fact is, the ratio of degrading maledom to everything else is incredibly stark. Sure, this is always a variety of choices and fetishes and different things out there.

But what is the norm and what is being normalized, is maledom. Not only does the majority of porn focus on women in one body type and have an extreme male gaze camera, it portrays an image that women like being dominated.

Oh, and all the while, the mainstream name to call women inside the porn industry, are degrading terms like "slut". If most porn were so "sexually liberating" for women, the industry itself that should be pumping them up for what they're doing, they're insulting them as much as everyone. The entire portrayal of women in the majority of porn, in word, in camera, in act, is degrading.

 

[MomoElektra]

I could say "90% of porn contains dogs" and it would have as much merit as your "The majority of porn is degrading".

It's also possible we have a different understanding of "degrading".

 

[Mr.Squishy]

Whelp, I guess having a penis makes me evil. Brb comitting suicide to clear the path for our flawless goddesses-come-to-earth sisters.