Virtual Hotties

[Rebel_Raven]

If guys don't like games like that

Hypothetically if the game you described came out tomorrow I highly doubt guys would even care, forget about "not liking" (that implies they actually care). Maybe a few MRA crazies would object, but those minorities (along with extreme feminists) can be safely ignored. This is of course because males have a million other games catering to them. Your gender-reversed game is free to exist and be produced for whoever is going to buy it - it's primary barrier won't be guys not liking it, but gamers (in general) just not being interested enough to warrant the development.

Reversing the situation won't work since you'll also have to reverse how gaming, technology, etc came around going back hundreds of years. Yes, I wouldn't like it if I was the minority audience for a popular product and it didn't depict my gender properly. No, I probably wouldn't try to get it changed because the hands of fate would probably make me not interested in video right now. Too many factors.

why are women expected to like games that treat them that way?

I'd like to think that women are not expected to like those games. The way the game is developed and marketed, one could conclude that the studios/publishers aren't even expecting women to be INTERESTED in those kinds of games, let alone like it. I mean do you think the devs of GTA and Witcher would expect women to actually enjoy their products? Heck no. They already know that, they know what they are making and who they are catering to. They are inclined to give zero fucks about Anita Sarkeesian and the likes, if anything she's helping their sales (a bit) every time she mentions their games.

But if some women do pick that game up and criticize it's depiction of women, that's between them and the devs/publishers. It's almost the equivalent of those women saying "Y U NO MAKE GAME FOR MY TASTES?" - that's how the dev/publisher will perceive criticism coming from women, especially feminists.

I can understand WHY women don't like it, I'll give you that. I don't expect them to like it, nobody should expect women to like such games. But that's the reality.
I wish women the best of luck to getting games made for them.

Why is anyone expected to like games where women are treated that way in general? the annoyance isn't limited to women.

The masses haven't really objected to women being treated like that in games, said games are selling very well. From the devs/publishers' perspective they did everything right. Who are you (or me) to convince them they are depicting women badly? They already know that and literally throwing it in consumers' faces, and consumers are gobbling it up.

If a woman decides to buy a game and doesn't like her gender's depiction in it, criticizing and complaining is the extent of what she can do - and then her criticism will be swiftly buried under countless others (i.e. straight male gamers) who found the game perfectly enjoyable and have no gender-related issues with it.

From what I've noticed, that's what happens every time. And the more often it happens, the less likely it is for future criticism coming from females to be taken seriously. Even if they are totally legitimate complaints, you get the picture.

That doesn't change things, really. If guys ignore it, then they wouldn't like it, right? They might not complain bitterly about it, what with it being one game like that, and it being pretty much the singular example, but they wouldn't like it.
The concept is not something most guys, and the industry want. Which, again, is my point. They don't want it, but they keep putting women through the same concept.

Women are expected to like it. For a very long time, it's been "play this way, or don't play at all." It still is for a large part, though I admit it's not as bad as it was these days since some companies are being more open, and some open companies might be getting more spotlight. It's still kinda sucky, though.
Then again it got pretty okay in the 90's, and dried up, so you'll have to pardon me if I'm not confident on how long it'll last.

I'm not really expecting developers to care what women want, and/or go to of their way, but rather have the freedoms to make a game that a woman just might like. They should do it because they want to.
Of course, I'm going to get irritated when women are actively cut/omitted like Ubisoft did in their latest games, which kinda sours what I thought about them when they redid Liberation, and made Child of Light.

We're free to complain. We should complain, IMO. It doesn't matter if anything changes, it's good to at least vent, and know we aren't alone in what we want.

While it's true that people bury the complaints with "everything's fine" (which points back to my point of women, and minorities for that matter, being expected to like it, or else they're not gaming, or gaming as happily as they could be), that apparently won't make this issue go away. It keeps reappearing time, and time again, and, IMO, until the issue becomes less common, it won't go away.

 

[Gottesstrafe]

I have a serious question;

Why, during these kinds of debates, do people insist on saying/implying that the male primary sex characteristic - our twig and berries, rod and reel, I'm-out-of-euphemisms - is in anyway comparable to female secondary sex characteristics - their boobs, flotation devices, whatever-you-like-to-call-them and their hips/thighs - at all?

Because they're not. At all.

You're right, we need to show more appreciation for other parts of the male anatomy. Namely broad shoulders, bulging biceps, sculpted pecs, washboard abs, and those delicate tight glutes. Preferably all while in fabulous Jojo-esque poses.

Spoiler: For the uninitiated

Imagine how much better Gears of War would be if they upped blatant beefcake to Bayonetta levels, or the Metal Gear series if Stupid Sexy Snake was an actual thing.

 

[Something Amyss]

I would have thourght drake (as much as I loath that dick weasel) would be a "general" kind of attractive to women

but then I'm realising as far as fictional charachters go I don't know what women like or why they like it

I think he's somewhere on the fence. I can see arguments for and against him being attractive, but he definitely ain't "man candy."

During one of PSN's recent sales, I looked up a game I'd never heard of, and a lot of the complaints were that the characters were "aimed at women." I ended up passing on the game because what few comments I could find about it described it as boring, but I really want to see more games with women in mind to see if the "it doesn't matter" crowd was really honest. I can't fault someone for not buying a boring game. What I want is a big, AAA shooter with lots of men marketed to appeal to women, and preferably with an unskippable gay kiss/sex scene.

Honestly, man-on-man action isn't really my thing, but I'd like to see how people really reacted to an otherwise "normal" AAA game that just happened to have men aimed at pandering to straight women/gay men, up to the point of homoerotica. Because that would be the real test, I think. If it really doesn't matter and women shouldn't complain, men should be totes into the game even if it's pandering or sexist or whatever else.

But I kind of diverged from your post. This is just what it made me think of.

 

[LazyAza]

What bothered me about the last iteration of Cortana was that they didn't even try to allude to her visually being anything more than a naked lady. What made her "sexy" was that she could be interpreted as either being naked or wearing full body clothing because her design had a vagueness to it in that respect in the older games; her boobs weren't overly defined in shape and so on. Sexiness is about subtlety and implication and "teasing" the viewer regardless of the gender being used. Once you're full on modeling nipples and putting every crease of a characters butt in to your normal mapping you've gone too far and made porn.

Typical effective fanservice for straight female viewers isn't a giant penis flopping around in tight shorts, its a general definition of the male form that isn't taken too far; enough to be "muscular" but not "monstrous" (see; the characters from Free) alongside a pretty face, nice hair and so on - the same as a female character appealing to men.

Which is where a lot of artists go wrong; Cory included in this instance. He made Larry (terrible name, not sexy at all) too muscular and his penis would be terrifying to any lady due to size alone, as a male version parody of Cortana it is "incorrect". Women have tastes and preferences as much as men but most have a general set of interests that don't involve extremes and hardcore fetishes, I'd say the percentage of those that do is way way lower than the average male also.

Boobs are great but once you go over a certain size I'm honestly more disgusted than anything myself. Most women don't want their fantasy men to be enormous penis monsters either, which again is what I constantly see when the "joke" of "lets objectify men too guys!" comes up - showing a misunderstanding in the concept even when their is some awareness of it.

Fanservice should be available to all people but more artists need to understand what is considered sexy to both women and men. Equality demands equal understanding of that which is considered appealing.

 

[Vault101]

Honestly, man-on-man action isn't really my thing, but I'd like to see how people really reacted to an otherwise "normal" AAA game that just happened to have men aimed at pandering to straight women/gay men, up to the point of homoerotica. Because that would be the real test, I think. If it really doesn't matter and women shouldn't complain, men should be totes into the game even if it's pandering or sexist or whatever else.

I also think what women find sexy and what gay men find sexy [i/]can be[/i] very different...like like what a lesbian might like is different to what a man might like

It actually makes me wonder because hetero female sexuality is something I don't think gets explored a lot int he mainstream.....

but if I were to think of a charachter designed to appeal to females my guess would be Thane From ME2, he's cool mysterious, "emotional" philisphical...his design is very appealing and I admit when I first plaed ME2 I was drawn to the charachter...

Typical effective fanservice for straight female viewers isn't a giant penis flopping around in tight shorts, its a general definition of the male form that isn't taken too far; enough to be "muscular" but not "monstrous" (see; the characters from Free) alongside a pretty face, nice hair and so on - the same as a female character appealing to men.

Which is where a lot of artists go wrong; Cory included in this instance. He made Larry (terrible name, not sexy at all) too muscular and his penis would be terrifying to any lady due to size alone, as a male version parody of Cortana it is "incorrect". Women have tastes and preferences as much as men but most have a general set of interests that don't involve extremes and hardcore fetishes, I'd say the percentage of those that do is way way lower than the average male also.
.

yeah as I just said I think theres a mistake in thinking they are somehow interchangeble...they are not

I can't link pics but if you look up Bloody mary from Wolf among us and compare that to any scantly clad charachter Mary is a BAZILLION times more attractive, and I'm only speaking from images...

 

[Overquoted]

Funny you bring up that show, acting like fanservice like that isn't common. Well, guess what? It's actually very common. Maybe it's slow getting there in video games, but movies and TV shows feature plenty of eye candy for women. Six-pack abs may be silly to you, yet there are plenty of women who think that is hot. The post you were quoting was also being sarcastic. There is a lot of overlap with the "male power fantasy" and what women find attractive. That's why that is a fantasy for men. They want to feel attractive and desirable as much as being big and strong. That's the power fantasy for guys. Not JUST being strong. The funny thing is, being both strong and attractive is a fantasy pretty much everyone has, not just men.

I said, specifically, that the guy I was talking about plays a character. He's not a walking set of muscles (contrast that to a lot of women in games, and media in general, who are just a pair of walking tits). He's not there to be eye candy alone. And to be honest, before I started watching the show, I didn't find him the least bit attractive (though I hadn't seen him shirtless then, so who knows). He's more attractive now that he's a person and not just a face or a body.

I can't say that I've felt attraction toward any character in a game, male or female, based on appearance alone. The medium just doesn't work for me that way. But a decent character who also happens to be okay or even good looking? Sure, I enjoy that. Probably not as much as the fans of volley ball girls though.

Offhand, I can't think of any female-fantasy movie or tv show that just has pure eye candy. I'm sure it exists, but I have doubts on how successful it'd be. Twilight, dumb as it was, featured some kind of characterization (even if it was super creepy stalking and 'protectiveness'). Even male strippers have to do a lot more than just be hot. We're talking acrobatics, choreographed dancing, playing with fire, comedy skits, etc. (There's a documentary on the LaBare strippers of Dallas, and you could probably find a few of their routines on YouTube, just as an example.)

Female fantasy often requires more than just jiggle physics, is what I'm getting at.

 

[MahouSniper]

I must have missed this, what exactly is the Nothing Else reference? I guess I didn't see the thread or whatever.

 

[Something Amyss]

I also think what women find sexy and what gay men find sexy [i/]can be[/i] very different...like like what a lesbian might like is different to what a man might like

I would agree, though for these intents I think it'd be close enough for jazz. My curiosity aims more towards whether it would put off the men that say "it shouldn't matter" were the shoe in the other foot. I mean, I would like to see more women in gaming, and the like, but this was more a desire for an experiment to test the honesty of the average male gamer saying "STFU wimminz"

I don't know, though. My perspective's always been skewed. I can observe how other people respond and pick up on patterns, but that's it.

It actually makes me wonder because hetero female sexuality is something I don't think gets explored a lot int he mainstream.....

I imagine that any group that isn't straight males doesn't get explored very often. Then again, this could be a 'Murrican POV. I do suffer from a potential lack of perspective.

but if I were to think of a charachter designed to appeal to females my guess would be Thane From ME2, he's cool mysterious, "emotional" philisphical...his design is very appealing and I admit when I first plaed ME2 I was drawn to the charachter...

It's funny, because his character model looks a lot like a reptile Jansen Ackles, and while I know you weren't talking specifically about the character model, I know that Ackles is pretty popular with straight women.

I don't remember much of Thane (I'm not big on Mass Effect 2/3), so I can't comment on his personality. What this, combined with the other poster you quoted made me think of is that we have an overwhelmingly male (ostensibly straight) industry who at best have to guess what "women want" and at worst don't give a crap. Thane's existence would then likely be a happy accident, though I'm only really mentioning him in passing. LazyAza mentions that Larry is a bad example of fanservice for women, which I don't particularly hold against Critical Miss because they were doing a comic strip and not seriously trying to establish a model that would actually appeal to women. Which is sort of the issue, both with the industry and the people saying there is no problem. Neither tend to have a reference point. This is why people point to Kratos and say "see? Men are sexualised, too! That's blatant fanservice!" and the women tend to fire back with "well, actually, noooooooooo...."

Which, of course, usually runs in circles, because inevitably the response seems to be "yuh huh!" Which now gets into telling women what they want. This seems to come from not only a lack of understanding, but a lack of desire to understand in the first place. And the reason I would like to test the "it doesn't matter!" mentality is because I doubt they've put much thought into it.

In the past, and I think even in a relevant CM strip, we had people talking down about the concept of these Gaymer cons, but then adding that they as heterosexuals wouldn't feel comfortable being surrounded by gays. And my thought is, "hey, teachable moment. Think about how gays feel most of the time. In fact, gay gatherings are probably the only time gays aren't the minority." But also, "hey, teachable moment. You mean you'd feel awkward about a bunch of men staring at you, assessing you based on your sexual value, and so on? I wonder how that group of people you do that to routinely feels!"

Hence my issue with wanting games which would be ostensibly uncomfortable to the "it doesn't matter!" guys. I think they think they mean it. I don't think they've thought it through, or actually tried to put themselves in that situation. And to be fair, I don't think there's a perfect analogue. I bring up homoerotica mostly because it tends to bring out the "squick" factor and discomfort I'm looking to demonstrate.

Even still, I think that guys can get the idea from something like what this strips shows, and I think Penny Arcade sort of pointed that out [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/04/24]. It's not a perfect analogue, but at least they get the discomfort (as Tycho points out in the accompanying news post, though I think he sadly then veers way off the mark on the last bit).

 

[A.K.B.]

Ok, that baton of a dick really got me XD
Over-sexuallizing much!!
anyway, I wonder if people here will be too busy discussing sexism and gender-equality to relish the joke .....

 

[Lunar Templar]

Cash Machine, nice, haven't heard that one in ages. Nice.

As for the comic, eh. I don't care enough wanna wade into those shark infested waters.

 

[Norithics]

I laughed so god damn hard at this.

What? You want social commentary? Forget it! I only exist for funny right now!

Edit: I love Samus' body language in the last panel <3

 

[Vault101]

I would agree, though for these intents I think it'd be close enough for jazz. My curiosity aims more towards whether it would put off the men that say "it shouldn't matter" were the shoe in the other foot. I mean, I would like to see more women in gaming, and the like, but this was more a desire for an experiment to test the honesty of the average male gamer saying "STFU wimminz"

I definetly agree...similar thing where people defend the presence of certain aspects of violence agaisnt women because of "realism"...but would it be a reality they want to be reminded of?

[quote/]
It's funny, because his character model looks a lot like a reptile Jansen Ackles, and while I know you weren't talking specifically about the character model, I know that Ackles is pretty popular with straight women.

I don't remember much of Thane (I'm not big on Mass Effect 2/3), so I can't comment on his personality. What this, combined with the other poster you quoted made me think of is that we have an overwhelmingly male (ostensibly straight) industry who at best have to guess what "women want" and at worst don't give a crap. Thane's existence would then likely be a happy accident, [/quote]

if I recall Thane was designed with women in mind more or less

Gaurrus I belive is more of a happy accident

 

[Something Amyss]

I definetly agree...similar thing where people defend the presence of certain aspects of violence agaisnt women because of "realism"...but would it be a reality they want to be reminded of?

Well, that's completely different, because...Because reasons!

if I recall Thane was designed with women in mind more or less

Gaurrus I belive is more of a happy accident

I never got Garrus' appeal to either sex, but I would definitely believe he was an accident.

I also really wouldn't be shocked to find that Space Ackles was designed with women in mind, though I stand by the sentiment that such consideration is either rare or usually off the mark.

I don't like that this comic considers 50% of the world population to be "a niche audience". Heck, put that well-endowed hologram guide in a videogame, and admire the sudden increase in female gamers.

So yeah, that hologram... his crotch is already telling me to buy the videogame. *gasp* Wait is this... is this why videogames have all those skimpy ladies??

To the first point, I took it as aimed at the lack of primary female characters in video games, not the audience itself. After all, it's the Spartans and Samus looking at the holograms, not the audiences themselves. I imagine Metroid's audience is still heavily male, for example.

As for sexualised men, that would be "pandering" to my understanding, while sexualised women are "totally not pandering, because that's different," according to my understanding of the argument.

[
See, here's the problem with what lots of people have with this. Women aren't always the victims here.

I hope you mean "victims" in a loose sense and not in a direct sense, as I never said they were victims.

But you seem to love telling us men what we want instead.

I'm sorry, when did I tell you what you wanted again?

Again, being a straight male doesn't mean all us straight males are a hive mind. Humans in general aren't a hive mind. It doesn't matter if we share many thoughts and feelings, we still aren't a hive mind. Not all us straight males find the same things attractive, same for females.

I'm confused. Where did I say that these designs appealed to each and every man or similar? Surely, you must understand the difference between broad strokes ("designed to appeal to X") and talking unilaterally ("every X must love y").

See, I think you're instead demonstrating why we can't have a mature discussion on gender in gaming. Much like other threads, any time something general is mentioned, a bunch of people (typically straight white dudes) decide that they have been personally offended and react with hostility. And I'm sorry that it offends you that we were having a discussion about who intended markets were, but there is no way to soft serve this any more than is already being done. People always insist that we have to be nice and cater to the feelings of men in these topics, but there are always men who are offended, no matter how gentle. And yet, here we are. This is a thread where mild-mannered droning feminist Anita Sarkeesian is radical and I am somehow offensive for having a go at men (who apparently, to straw-me are the sum of all wrongs in the world).

I don't know what makes you feel like I mentioned you specifically, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's unwarranted and untrue. I have no desire to tell men what they want.

However....

Just because you don't find something appealing doesn't mean it isn't sexy to someone else.

I agree, and haven't said anything to the contrary. Hell, I'll go one further. What I find appealing personally is often out of the mainstream entirely. I don't think I've ever addressed my own sexual tastes in this thread (Though I do find Jansen Ackles appealing), so this has nothing to do with me personally. Just as it has nothing to do with you personally.

If you mean "you" in the general sense, the larger issue is that the "you" in question is a significant chunk of women, specifically for this case in gaming.

Your Kratos example is exactly what I've been discussing in my previous post. People argue that it is just a "male power fantasy" without actually fully knowing what that means. Part of the fantasy for guys is not just being strong, but also physically desirable. In fact, that's a fantasy both men and women have, not just straight males. As someone else mentioned in this thread, the male power fantasy isn't completely separate from what many females find attractive. There is overlap, which is why male characters are idealized this way.

My Kratos example doesn't say no women find him sexy, but rather that he was designed with men in mind. To that end, while male power fantasy is about being desirable, it's usually based around the male ideal of what women want. That's....That's kinda my point when I bring him up here.

Which is sort of the issue, both with the industry and the people saying there is no problem. Neither tend to have a reference point. This is why people point to Kratos and say "see? Men are sexualised, too! That's blatant fanservice!" and the women tend to fire back with "well, actually, noooooooooo...."

Which, of course, usually runs in circles, because inevitably the response seems to be "yuh huh!" Which now gets into telling women what they want. This seems to come from not only a lack of understanding, but a lack of desire to understand in the first place.

You'll note that I even said "tend to" with women. I'm not saying no woman ever found him sexy, I'm saying that the equation of him is absurd and noting that such "sexualisation" isn't done particularly with women in mind. That some women, "many" women find him sexy is more a happy coincidence, and it's not really relevant to my point.

More to the point, this borders on telling women what they want. You'll see it in this thread and others for example. You will see women talking about what they would like to see in games (specifically for appeal), yet you're trying to tell me that Kratos appeals to "many" women. I suspect if you put this to the test, you'd find many was a stark minority, especially here. You know, within gaming. Within the relevant subject of this course of discussion. I don't speak for anyone but me, but I am capable, as I said to Vault, of observing trends. Even as you protest, you've got women saying otherwise. Now, I'm sure you can find women who like Kratos, but that's not relevant to what I said. I can also find men, honest to god straight men who agree with me.

So what's your point? The closest relevant point I can come up with is "these are not unilateral issues with borders drawn solely down gender lines," but that doesn't disagree with me, it doesn't make what I'm saying wrong or problematic. More to the point, it still dovetails with my assessment of broader trends.

And I maintain the notion that at best these guys tend to be modeled after the male notion of what women want. If you can find women who enjoy this, that's fine. I'm sure you can.

Because apparently only men do this?

Please stop trying to force words in my mouth.

Women do this too. The only difference is that in this day and age people like to shame men for finding others attractive, all the while acting like women are somehow morally superior that they would never do this, which is clearly false.

And when women are the "majority" group that's sexually harassing men in gaming (or even just at cons), come back to me and we'll have a chat. On that day, I will have a much different argument to make on the subject. And the funny thing is, should that day come, I will be talking about the way women treat men, but I doubt you'll be popping in to say #notallwomen.

I'm talking about straight men because they are the issue here. Now. At this moment in this instance in this industry. I am speaking to relevance. I don't really care about this MRM concept of "fair and balanced reporting" where suddenly people are upset that I didn't specifically recount every evil women have ever done, or pointed out that not every man does X or believes Y or likes Z. You know what? We can talk about trouble in the Middle East without #notallisraeli hashtags, so we can talk about it here.

None of this "you didn't mention X so you think X is without sin" bullcrap. This is uncalled for, dishonest, and absurd.

This sounds more like thought policing than anything else.

Are you talking about your own post? Because I agree. This does border on thought policing, since you're indicating what I think without me even having to vocalise it. It's convenient, but hardly honest.

Another problem is comparing someone who simply likes looking at what they find attractive to someone who actually harasses or abuses others. Yeah, that's not the same thing, even though people like to associate the two.

That's nice. However, as you tacked it on to a rant about me and what I like to do, I can't help but think that you're applying it to me. Please show me where I did that. Otherwise, why is it here?

No, I think this goes right back to my prior point: a lack of understanding, and a lack of desire to understand. You're coming up with reasons to be offended at frank discussion. I just wasted more time addressing your attempt to shout down the conversation than I did addressing actual viable issues.

I won't do that again. If you have anything of real merit to discuss, I will be happy to address it, but I will not spend that much time addressing what effectively comes down to #notallmen with you again. Especially since I never said #yesallmen in the first place. You just told me the problem with my sentiments was something that had abso-freaking-lutely nothing to do with me, my stance, or the issues being discussed.

And I agree. But not for the reasons you think.

I'll go into one final point on this already too long response: I don't really care what you like. I don't care what men in general like. I'm also not out to take it away. To the contrary, I think there's room for everyone. This isn't diversity for diversity so much as marketing to women in the same way games already market to men. There's a broad market and the best thing is, we have the technology to pander to both in a single video game. We have games not only with gender selection, but where you can build characters to your preferences for any sex you choose. Men aren't actually losing anything for considering what women want, rather than looking at Kratos and saying "but that's what I think you want!"

 

[Something Amyss]

garbage

Surprise, surprise. I called you out and you reply to me with the typical garbage that I was talking about. Good job. Here's the thing, buddy, I don't need to put words in your mouth. They were already there. Everything you just said in response to me was just you back-peddling the moment I called you out on it.

If you're just going to lie, why even bother replying? My reply was nothing like your claims.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you're just going to lie, why even bother replying? My reply was nothing like your claims.

It's not me who's the liar here. Take your own advice.

Okay, fine, pretend what you want. No wonder you edited my quote out before responding in the first place.