Wait, This Need To Be Taught?

[chiggerwood]

Every once in a while I'll go to buzzfeed, because I have a few issues with anger (nothing major) and I'm trying to build an immunity to bullshit and to overcome the urge to yell profanities when I hear something mind numbingly stupid. However, today I came across this: sorry for posting a buzzfeed link. Now if you read that (once again I'm sorry for exposing you to buzzfeed) you'll see that starting at around four or five that there are people complaining that they didn't get taught about consent.

Now I always thought that it was common sense that you can't force someone to have sex with you and vice versa. Maybe it was the Church I was raised in (which was quite frank and truthful about sex), maybe it was my mother (who is extremely frank and truthful about sex), but for as long as I can remember I've known about rape and that it's wrong, and that you don't have to have sex with anyone if you don't want to and vice versa, and I didn't need to be told, I just figured it out using critical thinking. I.E. If I have to ask to play a friends SNES then I must ask for sex, If I have the right to deny use of my SNES I have the right to say no to sex. and my question is:

Am I overreacting, or am I justified in thinking these people are fucking idiots for not knowing this by use of the lump three feet above their ass, is it a societal problem, or is it something in the middle that I'm not seeing? I sincerely want to know, because I want to slap the shit out the people that are saying they didn't know they could say no and I want to know if I'm justified in feeling that way.

 

[SnakeTrousers]

I think to some degree you may just be assuming too much based on your own experience. People are obviously aware of the basic idea that rape = bad but then, that kind of situation doesn't generally play out as straight as media portrayals of such might have one believe. I assume, anyway, what do I really know?

 

[Mezahmay]

I'm a little annoyed that BuzzFeed article/thing uses the same tweet for point two and point eight. Does that make it only 16 reminders that sex education is important? I think you're overreacting a bit chiggerwood because BuzzFeed is for stupid people. They're the audience they have, this is the message they need to hear.

 

[Angelblaze]

I'm a little annoyed that BuzzFeed article/thing uses the same tweet for point two and point eight. Does that make it only 16 reminders that sex education is important? I think you're overreacting a bit chiggerwood because BuzzFeed is for stupid people. They're the audience they have, this is the message they need to hear.

I'd disagree. A quick trip to places such as /r/TheRedPill (and /r/RedPillWomen) clearly shows that there are people who believe that they are entitled to sex. Along with beliefs in statements such as 'If they dont want to have sex, they are cheating.' with people on both subreddits admitting to spousal rape which is, to my knowledge, one of the most common forms of rape if not the most common.

 

[Mezahmay]

I'm a little annoyed that BuzzFeed article/thing uses the same tweet for point two and point eight. Does that make it only 16 reminders that sex education is important? I think you're overreacting a bit chiggerwood because BuzzFeed is for stupid people. They're the audience they have, this is the message they need to hear.

I'd disagree. A quick trip to places such as /r/TheRedPill (and /r/RedPillWomen) clearly shows that there are people who believe that they are entitled to sex. Along with beliefs in statements such as 'If they dont want to have sex, they are cheating.' with people on both subreddits admitting to spousal rape which is, to my knowledge, one of the most common forms of rape if not the most common.

Huh. I decline taking a trip to either of those subreddits, but I'll take your word for it. I had not considered that mentality even though I am exposed to that trope fairly often. I'm inclined to think spousal rape is the most common by virtue of statistics, especially since I'd imagine that's one that overlaps with other spousal issues and may not be reported as often as other forms of rape.

 

[tippy2k2]

What is the main message that you see in movies (especially the "College kids lose their virginity" type) for men?

Our goal is to hump a woman. Doesn't matter how drunk she is, humping is the goal. Doesn't matter how much she doesn't like you, humping is the goal. Doesn't matter if she just sees you as a friend, humping is the goal.

Hollywood pounds it into a young boys brain that humping is the goal and obtaining that goal by whatever means you need to is the ultimate sign that you have become a man.

If parents are not going to teach the kid right from wrong, guess where they are going to learn it from...

 

[krazykidd]

First rule of life. Never assume people know the same things you do.

Usually when people think rape, they think , druggin a girl, forcing sex on her, and beating/killing her afterwards. That's the disconnect. That's what most people think rape is. You don't have to do any of those things to rape someone.People need to learn what is and isn't considered rape.

 

[BubbleBurst]

Yeah, I agree with what seems to be the consensus in the replies, so far. Consent is absolutely something that needs to be taught; it sounds like the OP got it via parents or other sources, but that doesn't mean there's not a very valuable place for it in education. If you're going to talk about sex, and we should, you need to talk about consent.

Basically, I think healthy people can agree that "rape" is bad, and you shouldn't do it. But I think a lot of people picture "rape" as someone getting dragged into an alley by a stranger and assaulted, when study after study shows that that's far from the most common form of rape or sexual assault. The only thing that can change that misconception is education, not everyone will get it from their parents, and even if you do, there's no harm in reinforcing the lesson.

 

[Lieju]

Yes, it needs to be taught.

Because attitudes that 'if she was dressed like that it meant she wanted it', or 'she was hot, dude you were lucky she forced herself on you' or 'if they don't say 'no' it's okay to have sex with them' or 'it's not rape if you were married/on a relationship' are depressingly common.

And it needs to begin with, not even rape, but sexual harassment as well.
That it's not okay.

 

[Godhead]

A good rule of thumb is not stick anything into any other thing without prior thumbs up.

 

[WindKnight]

Trying to find it, but I remember a survey given to college students male and female that listed a bunch of situations, and then asked if forcing sex without consent in these situations was rape (the correct answer in each and every case was yes).

Depending on the situation, between 25 and 59% of the male respondents said no.

 

[carnex]

I read the article and think three different things

1) We weren't told that we can say NO? I think this is a part where that saying "School's job is to educate not raise children". This one is squarely on parents. Actually the very idea that one has to have sexual education in school is squarely on parents!

But I digress, giving children (OK, teens) example that sex is to be freely discussed is a positive so it's not bad, just stupid that it's necessary.

2) Some of those teachers need to be on complaint cards from as many student's as possible. Tweets do nothing, firing of unethical teachers does.

3) Relationships can not be thought in school. If it could nerds would be social darlings everywhere. Goodness, respect and empathy can not be learned in school, it both to late by that time and it's not schools job.

As for what constitutes a rape... that is a hot topic that really doesn't have a solution. On one hand given this state of things it's basically impossible to prove any form of rape other than violent one. On the other hand certain groups push for ridiculous levels of laxing in law for that particular crime. Where they are pushing can be seen in various cases how accusations of rape, made months after the alleged incident and with no proof what so ever can ruin persons career before it started. If you ask me that is even worse scenario. Than there is a third solution of "enthusiastic consent" which can assure one that other person is really desperate to have sex and would actually stop much of sex happening in the first place but actually has no effect on legal proceedings.

Only way out would be to have prepared documents in triplicate on hand , together with court official, for all parties involved to voluntarily sign. Even if I'm joking, i really see no other way out of the problem.

Trying to find it, but I remember a survey given to college students male and female that listed a bunch of situations, and then asked if forcing sex without consent in these situations was rape (the correct answer in each and every case was yes).

Depending on the situation, between 25 and 59% of the male respondents said no.

I know that study, and I do have a problem with it. It presented exchange of favors or conditions for sex as sexual assault just like exchange of sex for same is not an abuse.

While I'm not really for that, telling a person that you are unwilling to stay in relationship without sex is by no means bad. After all, relationship is between persons involved and everyone has their own expectations and demands of relationship. If two persons can't agree about them, they separate be it having sex or walking the dog.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

What is the main message that you see in movies (especially the "College kids lose their virginity" type) for men?

Our goal is to hump a woman. Doesn't matter how drunk she is, humping is the goal. Doesn't matter how much she doesn't like you, humping is the goal. Doesn't matter if she just sees you as a friend, humping is the goal.

Hollywood pounds it into a young boys brain that humping is the goal and obtaining that goal by whatever means you need to is the ultimate sign that you have become a man.

If parents are not going to teach the kid right from wrong, guess where they are going to learn it from...

well to be fair even without those movies humping would still be the goal, I suspect fewer would then compete though. But yeah parents are there to make sure their kids are that you shouldn't make people do something against there wishes, there's a problem.

Maybe others can relate but have you ever had a chat with someone of the opposite sex who feigned interest but when you declined they go "I didn't want you anyway!" or "I don't even like you like that" and worse. I used to here a lot of girls say that stuff but I think it's an epidemic from men now, calling girls teases and lowering there self-esteem to where they don't say no to advances out of fear of being slut shamed. In that case, why would you need consent?

I think it's called "Entitlement complex", you know that, I deserve this and if I don't get it i'll act out or/and even the opposite. It's with small things as well as big things like rape, we all have it a little.

Now

 

[SmallHatLogan]

Snip

I agree with you for the most part but I guess, at least where teenagers are concerned, it's can be kind of a peer pressure issue. Assuming the person pressuring you for sex is someone you know and are interested in to some extent you could feel that you kind of have to go through with it.

However if you're just at some party and some random person you don't know starts chatting you up and eventually wanting sex and you just go through with it because you've never heard of the idea of consent, that seems pretty bizarre to me.

I get where you're coming from in the sense that I don't understand why saying no to sex is completely different than saying no to anything else.

 

[DementedSheep]

Yes unfortunately it dose. As already mentioned sure everyone knows rape is bad but when they think of rape they think of jumping someone in an ally rather than stuff like fucking that person who is so out of it they can't speak let alone give consent or that you can actually rape someone you are in a relationship with because dating or married doesn't mean you have the right to sex from them whenever you want regardless of whether they want it. This one in particular seem hard to grasp for some reason.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

What one thinks is common sense is not necessarily the same for other people. Perception is the basis for each person's reality, and not everyone is able to see things the same exact way. So yeah sometimes what is blatantly obvious to you, me and probably a good percentage of people, is a complete and total blind spot for other folks.
Psychological, physical or cultural, doesn't matter everyone has a blind spot. Its not an excuse, but it is a reason. So you can continue to allow folks ignorance affect you in some way or just shrug. Maybe if you personally see a blind spot in someone, point it out for them constructively, or however the situation calls for it but I suggest trying civility first and leaving condescension or patronization in a garbage bin somewhere as they're never helpful or positive in any way. Personally I feel condescension and patronizing someone is a form of bullying people, its not direct but its definitely designed to negatively affect soemone mentally or emotionally.
Everyone needs education on some things, and like I said everyone has a blind spot on some topic that is generally obvious to the rest of the world. I think people need a bit more patience when dealing with "ignorance" because we're all ignorant somewhere.

 

[JoJo]

Only way out would be to have prepared documents in triplicate on hand , together with court official, for all parties involved to voluntarily sign. Even if I'm joking, i really see no other way out of the problem.

Heh, even that wouldn't be watertight, it'd only prove that the person wanted to have sex at the time the document was signed, they could easily withdraw consent later before or during the actual sex. The only foolproof way would be to film every sexual encounter you ever have so a complete record exists and I can't see that becoming popular >.>

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Am I overreacting, or am I justified in thinking these people are fucking idiots for not knowing this by use of the lump three feet above their ass, is it a societal problem, or is it something in the middle that I'm not seeing? I sincerely want to know, because I want to slap the shit out the people that are saying they didn't know they could say no and I want to know if I'm justified in feeling that way.

I'd generally say something in the middle. First off, stupid people will always find a way to be stupid. Worse, guilty people (as in people who feel guilt) will always try to find a way to justify their actions. Ie, if I eat the last cookie even though I know I've had more than my share, I will try to convince myself that I deserved that cookie more than others did, damn it. Of course, the combination (stupid + guilt) is the worst possible combination.

Now, the societal conditioning (particularly in the USA) that men are supposed to "work" for sex, and the idea that if you work hard, you get what you want (which, in combination, logically results in 'I did the work, so I deserve the sex') isn't helping. Part of that is simply toxic gender rolls (as another thread noted, they restrict men as much as women, harming both) create an artificial dance where women who are horny aren't allowed to just say "god, I need a good fuck - can someone help me out with that?" - no, we're expected to make men "work for it" - which only encourages the idea that men who work for it somehow deserve it.

So yeah, combination. Society sets up toxic expectations, and then reality fails to live up to those expectations, causing people to do stupid shit and then try to justify it after the fact.

 

[Nukekitten]

However if you're just at some party and some random you don't know starts chatting you up and eventually wanting sex and you just go through with it because you've never heard of the idea of consent, that seems pretty bizarre to me.

I get where you're coming from in the sense that I don't understand why saying no to sex is completely different than saying no to anything else.

None of us know what sort of home life the people involved have. Some people are given the general experience that asserting themselves is wrong. Others come from cultures where they're expected to be subservient. Some people are just very shy. It probably doesn't hurt to have consent reinforced as something that you can exercise, that is acceptable to exercise, even for kids who are aware of the general idea.

 

[shrekfan246]

Well, I don't see what the harm would be in being "taught" what consent is. You admit that you were essentially taught about what it means, so try imagining an alternate-universe you where you weren't raised with that kind of knowledge. Maybe Earth-69 Chiggerwood is on /r/MensRights right now complaining about how that girl he likes totes friendzoned him.

Hollywood pounds it into a young boys brain

Ho ho ho.

A good rule of thumb is not stick anything into any other thing without prior thumbs up.

I try to ask myself for permission to stuff food down my pie hole, but my stomach always overrides before I can get an answer. I think I should report it to the authorities.

EDIT: Changed a word because I think it's more fitting than the original one.