Warhammer Company Makes "Space Marine" Trademark Claim

[J Tyran]

Want to pull up the Tyranids next? Xenomorphs that absorb useful traits whilst being an engineered life form? Traveling the universe gathering biomass from the things they consume? Ring a bell?

OH YES FUCKING ALIENS! Except instead of chest bursting they just melt you down.

Except the Xenos from Aliens...don't do most of those things. They're never shown to have a space travelling hive mind, as they tend to get spread by other life forms (Humans and Predators). They don't absorb new creatures, they do however adopt the traits of a host creature. The Tyranids have no host creature. They just take over a race and adopt it into their hive.

Like the Zerg. Which were originally supposed to be the Tyranids.

I see where you're coming from as far as GW and originality, but as far as Xenos vs Tyranids, outside of basic visual design (verrrrry basic visual design) there aren't many similarities. I've never seen a Xeno use a weapon. I've never seen a Xeno do much other than hunt and kill.

They have a central hive mind in the Queen.

They can travel through space on board ships in egg form, so you could equate that to the Husks.

The Morphs were engineered, so were the Tyranids.

I could go on, however that is not my point.

My point was to illustrate how if we are going to use something like "Marine who is in space" as a copyright term then the Tyranids are in BIG trouble. They are technically Aliens that can change their physical appearance and do so by consuming other lifeforms.

That is a basic description of BOTH the Xenomorphs and the Tyranids. Fuck that we could take it a step further what if Cameron copyrighted the word Alien(s)? We might as well start pulling every goddamned sci-fi book ever written.

It wasn't to point out that there were similarities, it was to point out that if we take a generic term/description for something and copyright it allot of things are suddenly lost to the copyright fairy.

Unless the Space Marines in the book were exact copies of the Adaptes there should be no copyright issue. Just like their is no issue in using Aliens, Dwarfs, Elves, Orcs, Fairies, Dragons, Ghosts or any other word used to describe a common term for a creature or type of character.

Heck Space Marines isn't even accurate for the 40kers, they are Space Super Soldiers. Starship Troopers had Space Marines.

Nids where not engineered, the came from another galaxy where they evolved into natural selection gone crazy. They have been flying through space from galaxy to galaxy for millions of years possibly. The hive mind is not dependent on a Queen either, they are just synapse creatures that provide the link to the hive mind. The hive mind is also a massive entity that spreads across all Nids everywhere. The closest thing to Xenomorphs are the Genestealers, the hive mind sends them on infiltration missions ahead of the hive fleets which usually means old derelict ships. From there they hope to come into contact with sentient species so they can use them in a reproduction process, the spawn from this are half host and half Genestealer. Then they make trouble for any species they find and try to topple or disrupt authorities so when they call the hive mind they find it easier pickings. They act like Xenomorphs to and rely on fast sneak attacks or overwhelming shock assaults after sneaking in.

 

[Diddy_Mao]

While I am a fan of GW and their Warhammer 40k series. I am not now nor have I ever been a huge fan of their notoriously litigueous nature. However I can respect their desire to protect their IP especially when it is based on some fairly widely used genre tropes.


With that in mind I'm going to play the devil's advocate here.

At what point does a fairly generic term become synonymous with the IP that's been using it?
The argument I keep hearing is that "Space Marine" is a generic term used well before WH40K and GW should have no claim to it as a copywrited term.

I propose a hypothetical then. Say that I write a story set in a far away galaxy wherein an evil empire has dominated several star systems with their army of cloned storm troopers. The heroes of this tale would be a loose alliance of rebels aimed at taking down the empire.

Let's take it a step further then. Say I write a superhero story about a man in a robotic suit, a Jeckyl and Hyde pastiche and the norse god Thor...on top of that I write in a story wherein they have to unite to avenge the wrongs that have been done by *insert villain.*

Finally let's say I make an animated comedy series focusing on silly slapsticky gags and musical numbers and decide that the most descriptive terms in which to refer to my silly little show is to call it "Loony Tunes."


By the "Space Marine is a generic term and GW has no claim to it" logic I've done nothing wrong here. I've created a series of original stories and settings using generic descriptive terms that nobody should have the right to claim is specific to protecting their IP.

But would you really be on my side if Disney or Warner Brothers came down on me like a bag of hammers?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

But would you really be on my side if Disney or Warner Brothers came down on me like a bag of hammers?

If you were using any of the public domain material that Disney used as handholds to climb up to it's position of global media dominance, but then subsequently did everything in it's power to monopolise the usage of then I would be behind you one hundred percent. The Disney corporation's legal division would still strip the flesh from your bones, grind them into powder and snort it to get high. But rest assured that I would still think that they were wrong for having done so.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

snip

Technically, what you are describing is copyright infringement.

Although, realistically, you would be totally fine unless you literally copied huge sections of the script. The only thing there that is actually trademark infringement is the Loony Tunes example, because Looney Tunes is a registered trademark.

 

[1337mokro]

Want to pull up the Tyranids next? Xenomorphs that absorb useful traits whilst being an engineered life form? Traveling the universe gathering biomass from the things they consume? Ring a bell?

OH YES FUCKING ALIENS! Except instead of chest bursting they just melt you down.

Except the Xenos from Aliens...don't do most of those things. They're never shown to have a space travelling hive mind, as they tend to get spread by other life forms (Humans and Predators). They don't absorb new creatures, they do however adopt the traits of a host creature. The Tyranids have no host creature. They just take over a race and adopt it into their hive.

Like the Zerg. Which were originally supposed to be the Tyranids.

I see where you're coming from as far as GW and originality, but as far as Xenos vs Tyranids, outside of basic visual design (verrrrry basic visual design) there aren't many similarities. I've never seen a Xeno use a weapon. I've never seen a Xeno do much other than hunt and kill.

They have a central hive mind in the Queen.

They can travel through space on board ships in egg form, so you could equate that to the Husks.

The Morphs were engineered, so were the Tyranids.

I could go on, however that is not my point.

My point was to illustrate how if we are going to use something like "Marine who is in space" as a copyright term then the Tyranids are in BIG trouble. They are technically Aliens that can change their physical appearance and do so by consuming other lifeforms.

That is a basic description of BOTH the Xenomorphs and the Tyranids. Fuck that we could take it a step further what if Cameron copyrighted the word Alien(s)? We might as well start pulling every goddamned sci-fi book ever written.

It wasn't to point out that there were similarities, it was to point out that if we take a generic term/description for something and copyright it allot of things are suddenly lost to the copyright fairy.

Unless the Space Marines in the book were exact copies of the Adaptes there should be no copyright issue. Just like their is no issue in using Aliens, Dwarfs, Elves, Orcs, Fairies, Dragons, Ghosts or any other word used to describe a common term for a creature or type of character.

Heck Space Marines isn't even accurate for the 40kers, they are Space Super Soldiers. Starship Troopers had Space Marines.

Nids where not engineered, the came from another galaxy where they evolved into natural selection gone crazy. They have been flying through space from galaxy to galaxy for millions of years possibly. The hive mind is not dependent on a Queen either, they are just synapse creatures that provide the link to the hive mind. The hive mind is also a massive entity that spreads across all Nids everywhere. The closest thing to Xenomorphs are the Genestealers, the hive mind sends them on infiltration missions ahead of the hive fleets which usually means old derelict ships. From there they hope to come into contact with sentient species so they can use them in a reproduction process, the spawn from this are half host and half Genestealer. Then they make trouble for any species they find and try to topple or disrupt authorities so when they call the hive mind they find it easier pickings. They act like Xenomorphs to and rely on fast sneak attacks or overwhelming shock assaults after sneaking in.

From the wiki I admit but.

"They are a nomadic alien race comprising many genetically engineered forms"

Sure the original Tyranids weren't engineered, but by this point they are basically Bioweapons on auto-consume.

Though I like how allot of people have gone through endless lengths to outline how Tyranids are "NOTHING" like aliens. If only people were that dedicated to pointing out GW doesn't own the word Space Marine.

 

[lordmardok]

For all the complaining about the ethical nature of trademarking a term used in science fiction since the first story about military types in space, I have to admit that, from a cold, critical, non-hippie standpoint it makes good business sense.

After all, Warhammer 40k is becoming more and more popular since the Dawn of War series rocketed into the limelight bringing with it all of its runty children including three expansion packs, an extremely dedicated mod community, a sequel which itself has two expansions, and an action title for everything with a screen and a video card. The idea that they want to further narrow the focus of the public when talking about Space Marines isn't crazy, I'd probably try to pull the same damn thing in their shoes.

But people hate that y'know? They hate it when someone is a jerk about something but are also right about that same thing. People aren't allowed to be right and be jerks at the same time because then you can't shout them down from their pedestal or take a swing at them without looking like a backwards luddite.

So I say, go for GW, you crazy, psychotic, capitalistic diamond.

 

[Easton Dark]

I really don't think you should be able to trademark* words that are in the dictionary.

Combining two does not count.

Trademark Tyranids, Dakka, Bolter even. Space and Marine together? No.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

From the wiki I admit but.

"They are a nomadic alien race comprising many genetically engineered forms"

Sure the original Tyranids weren't engineered, but by this point they are basically Bioweapons on auto-consume.

The Tyranids aren't really "engineered." It's more like incredibly rapid evolution. But this is semantics. Obviously, the other poster assumed you were saying that the Tyranids were genetically engineered by an external party.

Though I like how allot of people have gone through endless lengths to outline how Tyranids are "NOTHING" like aliens. If only people were that dedicated to pointing out GW doesn't own the word Space Marine.

The Tyranids really have much more in common with the Zerg than the xenomorphs. The Zerg were very heavily "inspired" by the Tyranids. But if you're looking for an Alien shout-out, it's the Genestealers.

I really don't think you should be able to copyright words that are in the dictionary.

Combining two does not count.

Copyright Tyranids. Copyright Dakka. Copyright Bolter even. Space and Marine together? No.

I don't want to come off as a jerk because I'm guessing you haven't read the thread, but this is a trademark claim, not a copyright claim.

They really are two incredibly different things.

 

[Alssadar]

Games Workshop loves it money.
You ever want to buy a five man space marine combat squad? Prepare 15 pounds or 20 bucks.
10 Astartes? 30 dollars.
And considering how they are the staple to any army, plus with the wide array of accessories and modeling purposes you can use them for...
LOADS OF MONEY.

OT: I'd rather they let people use the term Space Marine. They have their Astartes and they can be cool with that.

 

[FalloutJack]

Hey, since this will go over as well as that whole "Edge" thing (Read As: "Not at all"), I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Easton Dark]

I don't want to come off as a jerk because I'm guessing you haven't read the thread, but this is a trademark claim, not a copyright claim.

They really are two incredibly different things.

Whoops, I get them mixed up. I read some of this thing.

I want to know what is going on in the minds of the owners of Warhammer, a science fiction franchise that built its popularity on common scifi tropes, by now suing those who are utilizing scifi tropes.

Sounds like elimination of possible competition.

 

[FoolKiller]

good, come up with your own term for space military men

First off, Games Workshop is hardly the first ones to use the term, second off, you realize that space marine is just a generic description, right? They're marines who happen to be in space. What would you rather they be called? Cosmic Warfighters?

Actually...

Quick... trademark that before Games Workshop gets it. Oh wait... they'll just claim it anyways and sue your pants off.

And frankly, the term space marine is idiotic. There is no sea/ocean in outer space.

 

[FoolKiller]

In December 2012, Games Workshop used a trademark infringement claim to force the removal of the ebook Spots the Space Marine from Amazon. The book, an homage to classic sci-fi author Robert Heinlein, is still available in physical format [http://www.amazon.com/Spots-Space-Marine-Defense-Fiddler/dp/1470131056/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360185450&sr=8-1&keywords=spots+the+space+marine] but the ebook edition is not, and according to the author, M.C.A. Hogarth, the real worry is that Games Workshop may be readying a similar move against all other uses of "space marine."

Amazon has put it back up since then due to other authors supporting the authors claim.

 

[1337mokro]

From the wiki I admit but.

"They are a nomadic alien race comprising many genetically engineered forms"

Sure the original Tyranids weren't engineered, but by this point they are basically Bioweapons on auto-consume.

The Tyranids aren't really "engineered." It's more like incredibly rapid evolution. But this is semantics. Obviously, the other poster assumed you were saying that the Tyranids were genetically engineered by an external party.

Though I like how allot of people have gone through endless lengths to outline how Tyranids are "NOTHING" like aliens. If only people were that dedicated to pointing out GW doesn't own the word Space Marine.

The Tyranids really have much more in common with the Zerg than the xenomorphs. The Zerg were very heavily "inspired" by the Tyranids. But if you're looking for an Alien shout-out, it's the Genestealers.

I really don't think you should be able to copyright words that are in the dictionary.

Combining two does not count.

Copyright Tyranids. Copyright Dakka. Copyright Bolter even. Space and Marine together? No.

I don't want to come off as a jerk because I'm guessing you haven't read the thread, but this is a trademark claim, not a copyright claim.

They really are two incredibly different things.

First of no. It is not evolution. The Tyranids do not evolve as a species, they simply engineer types of Tyranids for specific tasks. Not Evolution but BIO-ENGINEERING. There will always be a hive mind that does not change, unless it finds a useful genetic trait, but that is just a built in trait which is then again bio-engineering.

We don't Evolve crops to have more grain, we engineer crops to have more grain, just to give an example.

This just to clear up the mis-use of evolution, nothing to do with the actual post.

Now the actual response.

Yes, yes I know it is a Trademark claim but that is still part of IP law and the effects are still the same, I do use the terms trademark and copyright pretty sloppily I admit.

I am not looking for a similarity I am just saying that if we narrow a trademark/copyright down to a vague description "Aliens that look scaly and kill everything" similar to "Army personnel of the Marine branch in Space" we might as well start pulling back every possible thing in existence.

The guy that first thought up the Robot could now Trademark bomb any media with a robot as described by him (example: Autonomous metal construct).

On a side note, of course the Tyranids have things in common with the Zerg. StarCraft was basically a Warhammer 40k Alternate Universe with the amount of stuff they used from their Warcraft license.

 

[duchaked]

wut...dude, "space marine" was a term used in the absolute most generic manner (esp by folk on this site thanks to Yahtzee lol) before their Space Marine game came out (which was pretty fun). this is pretty ridiculous of them lol...

 

[C117]

Okay, this is just ludicrous. Okay, I understand if GW wants to protect their Space Marine brand of characters. But the problem with this whole ordeal, which many people besides me has pointed out, is that the term "space marine" really only refers to a marine... IN SPAAACE! And considering GW's eponymous space marines are closer to walking battletanks than anything else... yeah.

Look, GW. We know that you created those musclebound titanic monsters you call space marines, and that you took inspiration from various older sources. We are not about to argue that you do not have the rights to that particular brand of meatheads. However, trademarking the term "space marine", it being a description of a military marine that happens to work in space, is just dumb.

Let us hope the judges have the same amount of common sense as we do...

 

[Frankster]

Anyway. That was long, and neither you nor anyone else is going to wade through all that if they're sane.

As a total ignorant regarding laws, let alone trademark and copyright laws, i found your exchange interesting
Since most of us ain't law students, need someone in these threads to throw out some factoids otherwise we can only do knee jerk reactions (omg games workshop are total douschebags and bullies who are doing this for no reason other then to be evil suits!).

 

[malkavianmadman]

I am going to start by saying I am a 40k fanboy to some degree. That said I really hate GW. They do so much stupid shit. I don't think they should be allowed to trademark such a generic term, the in game universe offical name for the space marines (Adeptus Astrates) on the other hand, well that is theirs imo and I think they have it trademarked.

So in short this is yet another reason to think GW is just a bunch of money grubbing dick blisters.

 

[Eddie the head]

wut...dude, "space marine" was a term used in the absolute most generic manner (esp by folk on this site thanks to Yahtzee lol) before their Space Marine game came out (which was pretty fun). this is pretty ridiculous of them lol...

Shit someone enjoyed that game? I thought it was the most boring peace of shit I have ever played. Seriously I can handle a bad game but that was just dull. It was just hallow, there was nothing to it.

Anyway, that seams silly to me, honestly when I think "Space Marine" I think Aliens or Starcraft. Although I don't know shit about Warhammer. (yeah I know Starcraft is pretty much Warhammer 40k)