We are Team Siren

DugMachine

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Therumancer said:
Alright just to start off with, I'm not trying to white knight anything. I honestly couldn't give two shits about the hate they're getting, it was merely an observation of some of the comments.

And if what you're saying is true, and I'm not sure because all I know is what I'm seeing from this video, then I now have a better understanding of the backlash so thank you.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Lightspeaker said:
Phasmal said:
Your gender doesn't matter when you play games- BUT DON'T SAY YOU'RE A WOMAN. JEEZ. WHY CANT YOU BE HAPPY BEING AUTO-MALED?

...WHY DON'T GURLZ PLAY GAEMS?!

^ A silly portion of the community.

If gender doesn't matter dont get your pants in a twist that they say they are ladies. They are.

I think what people are "getting their pants in a twist" over is this: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_system

That is the league system for LoL.

If the OP is correct in that as a team they are only Gold 1 that means they are top division of the third lowest, fourth highest Tier. Which means they are absolutely miles from anything even approaching competitive as a team. (NB - their website has solo queue rankings for them which presents most of them in a better light at Diamond level, one person aside whose highest is Platinum IV, but no overall team ranking that I can find.)


It'd be different if their team was in Challenger league. And with dedication and a ton of work there's no reason they couldn't get there if they have the talent. But, again assuming the Gold 1 allegation is correct (I don't follow the LoL scene), if not for the whole "we're an all girl team" thing they wouldn't even be on the radar. Gender is being used for attention at the expense of players (male and female) who are actually better than they are.
Incorrect, I just wrote another post about this.

Team Siren is pretty much infamous for not playing well with others, being pretty much an extreme group of rude troll-girls who insult and present a hostile environment for other players. You might go "well, what's the big deal here in the intellectual gutter that is LoL" the "deal" is that they have generated huge numbers of complaints even in that community, to the point where anyone else would have been banned or forcibly disbanded by now. The internet is pretty much full of people getting banhammered for exactly their kind of behavior, including in LoL. The differences is that they are pretty much playing the "we're hated because we're girls" and apparently trying to defend their behavior as being the opposite of trash-talking misogynism... which does get people banned when enough people complain.

This video isn't the problem, the issue existed before this video was released, and the video is more or less just pouring salt into the wounds, which is why it's been met with such rage. In context this can be taken as "hahaha, we're great, we're above the rules... neener, neener, neener..." while also rallying outside support by getting people interested who do not understand the issue, to run forward to "white knight" the females in trouble.

That background is also why so many "don't get it" when they look at a "we're great" promotional video for a team that isn't anything particularly special otherwise. I don't play LoL, but this issue has been mentioned in a few games I do play, and if you do a search (I liked a post in my previous message) you can see by a lot of the complaints what the problem actually is. To be brutally honest when I look at their personal ratings vs. their team ratings, combined with the complaints, and some of the videos people have put up of their behavior (I'm loathe to link them), I think a lot of it is that they aren't really trying to be competitive, but rather to troll, their point (at least when acting as a team) seems to be more or less using LoL as a way to harass a captive audience. In one of the videos they pretty much lay right into it within like 2 seconds of the match. Like it or not "other people have gotten away with it" isn't an excuse, especially when it's generated this many complaints.

Also as I understand things, I think one of the reasons you see so many calls to disband Team Siren as opposed to banhammer them (which is what I think should happen) is that a lot of the girls are fine in more individual matches, it's when they get together as a team that there are problems, with the individual members not acting that way otherwise.
 

Lyri

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Why is this being a thing?

Scrubs make shitty team videos all the time, does the fact they have a vagina make it ten times more annoying?
This is no more annoying than any other team without merit.

The only Siren worth taking note of is Naga Siren from DotA.
 

splayfoot1

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Firstly, its called a vocal minority, because its a minority, the LoL community as a whole is no different to any other game, and 90% of the matches I play are really positive.

As for the video, if it was just presented as a standard team intro movie, it would be great, I'm all for growing Esports, but they made it a gender thing. It wasn't about who they are, or how good they are, it was about them being an all female team.

If they cut back on the "OMG GIRL GAMERS, LOOK AT US!" angle, then they will be just another team, and I wish them all the best.
 

Saxnot

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so some people in gold 1 made an all-girls team? ok, sure. have fun, i guess? i don't really see how this is a big thing
 

IamLEAM1983

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FreakofNatur said:
It's not "girls banding together". See the video. They are clearly abusing their gender to gain controversy and infamy as a "easy way" to earn recognition. Needless to say due to this explosive reaction by the community they are now VERY VERY marketable. Though for the wrong reasons.
It's marketing. There's no wrong or right. Bring that up to their PR goon if you've got a problem with the way their campaign was started. I'd say "Don't shoot the messenger" but the fact is - I'm not even the fucking messenger, dude. I'm just a guy who recognizes this as empty, yet effective PR talk. They got you to respond to me in the way that you did, so it must be working, right? You're all worked up. If you hadn't replied to me, I would have been able to reliably assume that you don't give a shit about what is, frankly, an ordinary development on the MLG scene.

Women have their own US Open, they have their own chess leagues, their own hockey federations, etc. Gaining recognition, as you put it, is kind of a given, and it's necessary.

FreakofNatur said:
They are not "banding together" the video uses statistics like 90% OF THE LOL PRO CIRCUIT ARE MEN. Then the video proceeds to shatter this statistic, shortly after one of the team members saying We're GOING TO CHANGE THE WORLD. What? This is the pinnacle of pretentious behaviour and gender abuse. It's basically saying hey:we are all females, we're different, that's great, we are "special". This is exactly the opposite of gender equality. They are emphasizing the gender INEQUALITY and painting themselves the "lone hero against the hordes", but THIS time, the hero is the women and the hordes are the men. This is not whatever you're speaking of above. Clearly either you haven't seen the whole video or only skimmed through it.
I've watched it all. Don't presume that I'm the type of guy who forms half-cocked opinions because you don't agree with me, that's bad taste. Again, all of it is PR talk, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker. If I were their manager, I'd be licking my chops at the amount of outrage this is generating. Angry people shout out, and any visibility is better than none at all. Of course, they have to say they'll "change the world", because that's a bold and provocative statement.

Have you seen other idents and promos from other MLG teams or other sports where there's a certain amount of ballsy attitude that's encouraged? That's the same thing. LoL is a game that's fraught with guys with a ridiculously short temper. Stoking these types - and potentially blinding them to how legitimately good these girls are - makes perfect sense to me.

You're angry. I'm smiling from ear to ear, right now.

FreakofNatur said:
Tell me how this isn't a slide backward in whatever precious misogynistic world view shattering argument we're having now. They CHOSE to differentiate and tag-line themselves by their GENDER. In the world of E-Sports where anything that matter should only be SKILL. They should be shamed and deserve such treatment for their abuse of the "empowered woman" trope and are not advocates for equality, rather, advocates of GENDER INEQUALITY.

Honestly, I was disgusted. Anita Sarkeesian brings awareness and archives tropes, but this? If it's not an outrage, it's blind support of a insane cry in the feminism race against "men".
It isn't a slide backwards. Catch any of these players outside of pre-game pep talks or interviews and you're very likely to find that their "loud and strong independent uberchick" persona melts away in public.

They're average gamers, with average lives outside of LoL. If I go by your argument, their beating you would demean your status as a male gamer. If it doesn't, then you're assuming that they'll immediately land slurs in your direction and ridicule your masculinity.

There's a world of difference between being a feminist and being a dick. There's also leagues and bounds between PR talk and gender equality. Also, what the fuck does Sarkeesian have to do with Siren? Did you hear any of the team members support her analyses or her "Tropes VS Women" series? Did any of them say something ludicrous along the lines of "I'm a feminist uberdyke and all men are subhuman primates" at any point in the video?

No.

Again, and for the last time - cool your jets. There's PR talk - admittedly stupid PR talk which is still going to work like a charm - and then there's actual mysogyny.
 

Rednog

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IamLEAM1983 said:
If I were their manager, I'd be licking my chops at the amount of outrage this is generating. Angry people shout out, and any visibility is better than none at all. Of course, they have to say they'll "change the world", because that's a bold and provocative statement.

Have you seen other idents and promos from other MLG teams or other sports where there's a certain amount of ballsy attitude that's encouraged? That's the same thing. LoL is a game that's fraught with guys with a ridiculously short temper. Stoking these types - and potentially blinding them to how legitimately good these girls are - makes perfect sense to me.

You're angry. I'm smiling from ear to ear, right now.
If I was their manager I'd be pissing my pants in the fear that I blew and am about to blow even more cash keeping this team afloat.
There's no master plan of secretly trying to hide their skill to throw their opponents off. They've been playing matches against both pro and amateur team and in both cases they've been curbed stomped insanely hard. It makes them not only look terrible but makes them a laughing stock. It's like being the manager of a boxer and pumping him up to everyone just to have him get KO'd after the first punch.

If it is indeed some kind of elaborate ploy it's an incredibly dumb one because at their current ranking they don't even qualify to participate in any of the pro tournaments. Great plan to trick opponents you will never face.
It feels more like someone who has no experience in the pro gaming scene said hey the pro scene for League of Lengends pays out well, we can totally make a hook like an all girl team....so let's just cram 5 random girls into a team and call them pros...completely overlooking that they need to be good enough to be even considered for the serious tournaments.
 

NoeL

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I don't see what's to get angry about (other than using ear-bleeding music). They're free to do whatever the hell they want.

The unfortunate thing about marketing your team as "all female" is that it's incredibly discriminatory. They'll be forced to turn away star players looking for recruitment simply because they have a penis, and their team could suffer quite a bit because of that. On the other hand, it presents an attractive lure for the best of the best female players, so could strengthen their team.

But since I've never played nor watched LoL, I really couldn't give less of a shit right now.
 

Guitarmasterx7

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I mean correct me if I'm wrong but these girls have never actually placed in any professional tournaments or anything right? They came out with pretty much no merit or reason to respect them and said "WERE GIRLS SO GIVE US ATTENTION!" I don't really care if the hate they're getting is proportionate or warranted or not. They walked out into the line of fire and started being annoying. I'm not sorry for them. Either they're taking the "no publicity is bad publicity" approach and they'll roll with it, or they're fucking stupid.
 

DudeistBelieve

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EDIT ON TOPIC: LOL is the same community that I got some guy flaming me because I didn't play right. The community it self is a cesspool. That said, kinda just seems like they're working the all-girl gimmick to the LOL audience because they want to be hated. It's a pro-wrestling kind of thing, they're playing the heel. I could be wrong, but it seems like a great gimmick. The LoL Cesspool will tune in to watch a compeition wanting to see them get their asses kicked, and if they win? They'll keep watching.

Hell I probably am wrong, that's just my gut.

Tien Shen said:
As someone who regularly follows the LoL competitive scene, I have to say the only reason these girls are getting any attention is because of their gender. Skillwise, they are worse than the amateurs that tried for the NA LCS several months back. They are so bad that CLG HotshotGG, TSM Wildturtle and some random scrubs beat them in a few days ago, and neither HSGG nor Wildturtle were playing their usual lanes.

The fact of the matter is, Sirens are privately sponsored and they already have a house and a monthly income. Other teams got their sponsorship from actual companies or professional gaming organizations because people saw they had potential and only after they had made a name for themselves by taking part and doing well in competitions. Sirens have taken part in NO TOURNAMENTS yet have all this stuff that other teams had to work hard for. How many other teams have tried and failed to reach the level where they get a gaming house and regular monthly income? How many teams disbanded after failing to qualify or were relegated in the NA LCS?

If they were guys, and they had the same skill level and lack of any competition record, would they have gotten a sponsor and a gaming house?
Look, I just gotta speak up here. Worked hard? These people play a VIDEO GAME for money.

Work is something you do for money and you hate it but you gotta do it to survive. Doing something that you love isn't work.

Professional Sport players don't work. They play.
 

Rose and Thorn

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Cool a team consisting girls. Hope they kick some ass. I found it a little sheepish how they were all also playing females characters and then they introduce the last girl and she was some dragon knight looking guy in armour. I expected them to only playu the females. :p

It has been awhile since I have played so I don't really remember the male knight guy. Seemed to me there was a dragon knight character though. I know Dota 2 has one also, but ehhhh.

I don't really get the hate they, I don't get much about people though. I stopped playing LoL because of the people. Grumplish.
 

Guitarmasterx7

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Rednog said:
If I was their manager I'd be pissing my pants in the fear that I blew and am about to blow even more cash keeping this team afloat.
There's no master plan of secretly trying to hide their skill to throw their opponents off. They've been playing matches against both pro and amateur team and in both cases they've been curbed stomped insanely hard. It makes them not only look terrible but makes them a laughing stock. It's like being the manager of a boxer and pumping him up to everyone just to have him get KO'd after the first punch.

If it is indeed some kind of elaborate ploy it's an incredibly dumb one because at their current ranking they don't even qualify to participate in any of the pro tournaments. Great plan to trick opponents you will never face.
It feels more like someone who has no experience in the pro gaming scene said hey the pro scene for League of Lengends pays out well, we can totally make a hook like an all girl team....so let's just cram 5 random girls into a team and call them pros...completely overlooking that they need to be good enough to be even considered for the serious tournaments.
I think this team exists primarily to milk endorsements and ad revenue. That's not to say they have no interest in winning, but even if they don't there's still going to be a good amount of money changing hands, and since they're getting so much more attention than the other amateur teams that may even be better than them they're still a much more valuable asset business wise.

SaneAmongInsane said:
Look, I just gotta speak up here. Worked hard? These people play a VIDEO GAME for money.

Work is something you do for money and you hate it but you gotta do it to survive. Doing something that you love isn't work.

Professional Sport players don't work. They play.
They train. The fact of the matter is that someone who dedicates all day to something is going to be marginally better than someone who doesn't. LoL players definitely don't have to bust their asses working out all the time like UFC fighters or football players, but they still pretty much have to devote themselves to practicing like it's a job, because their success hinges on the ability to actually place in/win tournaments against other people who spend all their time practicing which makes it an extremely risky financial move.

...unless of course you can get promoted and sponsored without having to win anything...
 

JohnReaper

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okay, Your women, So?

Really So??

Ugh its crap like this that drives me up the wall

I'm usually with the whole "Women should get equal chance" but I feel some women use that to say, "Oh look I'm a woman doing tihs man thing give me attention."


Really this whiff's of wanting attention, Want to make an impact I want to see you on Lolesports.com not some Youtube video saying its a bad thing 90% of LoL players are male. I play with a team with 3 guys (My self counted) and 2 gals, And they arn't the other two's girlfriends, I know of 4 other female players, I can probably safely say the number is the big number of 60%

the 60% is assuming that more men play than women.
 

NoeL

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Look, I just gotta speak up here. Worked hard? These people play a VIDEO GAME for money.

Work is something you do for money and you hate it but you gotta do it to survive. Doing something that you love isn't work.

Professional Sport players don't work. They play.
That's just stupid. Do you know the difference between a professional sports player and someone "playing" a sport? The professional is expected to win. All the time. If they don't win it's not like they throw their hands up in the air and say "Oh well, GG you guys. I'll get you next time though! :p", no - they have to study exactly why they lost, figure out what they need to do to win, and then train to be able to accomplish those goals. A football team that gets up at the crack of dawn to run laps around a field isn't "playing football" - they're working. They're training hard to improve their game, and while they might love the results they almost certainly hate the training they have to do.

Even something like playing a video game requires training to win. You can get better just through playing the game, sure, but if you want to go pro you need to dedicate a shitload of time to memorising player stats, move sets, strategies, plus honing the hand-eye coordination and timing required to execute precisely what needs to be done. That can be very taxing.
 

Elfgore

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I don't understand the point of this video. An all girl LoL team, who the fuck cares? I don't care what your gender is, it's a game, I play with you for 30-45 minutes then I never see you again. This video just screams as a cry for attention. And if they are Gold 1, they are going to get destroyed by the actual pro teams. They are challenger level! That level has I want to say 100 people in it? Have fun trying to go pro ladies.
 

Yeager942

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The only thing they are guilty of is making an annoying video. I understand what they are trying to do. They aren't highly rated enough to get sponsored and win major tournaments, but if they make a video such as the one we saw, it puts their names out there in the public conscience.

Think about the Anita Sarkeesian videos. People were so "offended" by her then ran around and told everyone which in the end just promoted her videos even more. That's exactly what's happening with Team Siren. People are taking about them and the negative publicity is driving people to watch their streams and causing them to make money.
 

FreakofNatur

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IamLEAM1983 said:
If you say PR talk is fine because it's PR talk, then you're wrong. It is a representation, much like video games and especially in such a world where information is so readily available, I'm not surprised if other girl gamers look at the video and think it's acceptable behaviour. Thus comes in Sarkeesian in this dimension of the argument as she's doing the same thing.

What's this about melting away in public? Just because you're not like that in real life doesn't give you allowance to act like that.

Look at your original post, and then now at your current post. You've done an excellent bait and switch, ignoring the intent of my argument. If you're going to take everything at face value, then I have nothing to say. The Sarkeesian point was also in reply to the other less thoughtful points in this thread. I don't quote each part of your post exclusively and problematize them in a vacuum. I treat the whole post as a argument rather than taking the paragraphs as separate arguments, as all forums posts should be.

Angry? You're smiling and licking your chops - what? That's just asking for trouble and yea, if you think antagonizing people is really fun for you, that's fine. Not in the escapist forums.

To say any kind of marketing is good marketing is just making my arguments cheap. So you're saying it's fine that my all-male team list down the female victims that has fallen to my team? You're saying it's fine to have the guys say very masculine things like a retard in an introduction video? What? No. Of course it isn't. It's no longer the 1980's.

Obviously I'm talking to the wrong man. It's not that you don't agree, that's fine. It's that no one can disagree with you, apparently, because we're just "wrong".

Yea, half-cocked opinions? Boys? calling them insecure? Just because it's indirect it doesn't give you any cause to insult other posters. Your argument started with the idea of "girls banding together". Once again I say it isn't. It's exploitation of their gender.

WHY did I use caps for some words? That's the important part of my argument. It's gender inequality being promoted by the said group(females) wanting to have gender equality. If the idea of equal rights exists, then all groups, ESPECIALLY those based in western countries should build towards gender equality. You are clearly fine with their video with your statement "Girls banding together", even giving them merit for simply making bold statements that antagonize and provoke for no reason. As if they needed to in the first place. The e-sports scene, as always, is based on the merit of SKILL.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Guitarmasterx7 said:
I think this team exists primarily to milk endorsements and ad revenue. That's not to say they have no interest in winning, but even if they don't there's still going to be a good amount of money changing hands, and since they're getting so much more attention than the other amateur teams that may even be better than them they're still a much more valuable asset business wise.
This. Simply and exactly this.

It's business. It's PR. Nobody's going to financially faceplant because they sunk money into Siren. It won't be as profitable as the top-tier gaming clans, that much is obvious, but Siren is basically nothing more and nothing else than a self-generating notoriety machine. This is literally all it is.

Hence why I said that if I were the team's manager, I'd be looking at the windfall from this video and seeing dollar signs. Because of that one stupid video, there *will* be guaranteed attendance for the next few Siren matches.



FreakofNatur said:
So you're saying it's fine that my all-male team list down the female victims that has fallen to my team? You're saying it's fine to have the guys say very masculine things like a retard in an introduction video? What? No. Of course it isn't. It's no longer the 1980's.
I don't mind if you don't understand my reply; but if you're going to put words in my mouth, that's something else entirely. What I actually did say, if you'll go back and read my post the same way you've suggested I do, is that your attitude seemed to suggest that you were *expecting* Siren to sink down to disparaging tactics like name-calling. First off - this is League of Legends we're talking about. Of course there's going to be some trash-talking.

To state the painfully obvious - yes, it's absolutely uncool to "list down" female players. All of us with two brain cells to spare would agree. We all want to be thought of as tactful and at least sportsmanlike, if not gentlemanly. The fact is, the 1980's you're referring to are still around. You ever been to an Xbox Live match for any of the popular FPS or TPS titles with a few women on the server? We'd all like to think we're able to treat women intelligently online - but the amount of shit people hopped up on gamer adrenaline can spew at any player who's unfortunate enough to have ovaries is fairly disconcerting.

As this is LoL, what's going to happen? They're probably going to try and act in a diplomatic manner, only to be slammed back down by sore losers whose just so happen to be male. If they're patient or magnanimous enough, they'll just call GG and end the round. If they're tired or pissed off or they're socially encouraged to participate in the usual rounds of LoL mud-slinging, then they will. Then they'll be just as shameful as the average male players. At this point, gender has nothing to do with conduct. Assholes have no privates on the Internet, to coin a phrase.

It's not about talent, it's not about leaving the right impression or being at a level with the other clans - Siren is all about being provocative. If it wasn't, you'd already have heard of a few accepted male applicants to the team. The team being all-female is just incidental flavouring; basically just another hook that gets people fuming or that turns them curious to see what the girls can do. Regardless of their actual skill.

You're also correct in assuming that I don't agree with you. I don't see Siren's existence as a cheap shot at the male establishment, and I still don't see how Anita Sarkeesian's analysis of unrelated video game characters and concepts is in any way relevant. You're free to disagree with what she says, of course, and I certainly don't agree with the entirety of her thesis - but I have to admit that the male population is excessively cagey. Case in point, your initial arguments.

Admittedly, I don't have any connections in the industry. I'm just a really casual DotA player. Even then, I know enough to know how guilds and pro teams are formed, and I know enough to understand that even the lowliest of all ranked teams will want to spend some budget on efforts to self-represent, to set themselves apart from the mass of the surrounding, samey clans.

You're correct in assuming that players should be judged on their skill. Unfortunately, LoL isn't quite the PGA or whatever chess federation governs matches based on prior winnings and losses. If anything, you'd have to compare LoL to any current wrestling federation, where flashy, loudmouthed types or idiots who livestream themselves spanking a taint accidentally drive more views and generate more talk than any serious and insightful game and post-game commentary and analysis.

It's a niche scene, with comparatively small budgets. Every clan needs all the exposure it can get. Tell me then, if there's a single part of the concept of an all-female team with a provocative attitude that doesn't fit that bill.