We should forgive Bioware.

[Legion]

It's because of EA.
Their games actually work and don't crash, unlike Bethesda.

Actually Dragon Age 2 was as buggy as Fallout 3 upon release. Not only did it crash, it also had issues with DLC items not appearing, saved games being wiped, companion perks/skills negating the players, quests being impossible to begin or complete and achievements not being unlockable.

Mass Effect as a series has been much better in general in that regard.

That's funny, because I got Dragon Age 2 and had no issues. Then again, I play on BioWare's home platform...

You are right. You had no issues therefore nobody else could possibly have any either.

Silly me.

 

[gunny1993]

Their games don't reuse the same engine for 15 years, unlike Valve.

BioWare is the only game company that has a shot of making that hypothetical "Perfect Game" everyone likes to talk about.

Yeah because the source engine is terribly buggy, looks horrible, doesn't do what it's supposed to do, has no amazing fan made games/mods coming from it. Oh and because ME:3 looks so freaking amazing for a console port.

Bioware's quality in game making and customer satisfaction has dropped significantly over the lest few years, the quite clearly are doing something wrong.

 

[Legion]

It's because of EA.
Their games actually work and don't crash, unlike Bethesda.

Actually Dragon Age 2 was as buggy as Fallout 3 upon release. Not only did it crash, it also had issues with DLC items not appearing, saved games being wiped, companion perks/skills negating the players, quests being impossible to begin or complete and achievements not being unlockable.

Mass Effect as a series has been much better in general in that regard.

That's funny, because I got Dragon Age 2 and had no issues. Then again, I play on BioWare's home platform...

You are right. You had no issues therefore nobody else could possibly have any either.

Silly me.

I did not say that, do not put words in my mouth. I also pointed out that I play BioWare games on the PC, where they tend to be far more stable (much like how Elder Scrolls games are best played on PC considering how much people insist that mods make the games not suck)

I just pointed out that I never saw any of these glitches, so it's new info to me.

Fair enough, I guess it is one of those things where you get lucky. Like in Fallout 3 I never had any issues (and people constantly talked about them) yet Fallout New Vegas I seemed to come across one every ten minutes.

Admittedly when it comes to bugs, PC gaming is definitely superior in that regard. On my Xbox I have to deal with bug issues, on the PC I can either download a mod/patch or I can use the console in many cases to fix it.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Already done. Although that may have been easier for me, as I don't think they've been nearly as bad as it has been said they are. I enjoyed Dragon Age 2, loved Mass Effect 3 for 99% of it, and didn't care for The Old Republic to begin with.

 

[Thoric485]

Sure, as soon as they make another RPG that lives up at least to DA:O, without the shovelware DLC.

 

[hwrguerapgjapi]

Honestly, Mass Effect 2 was the first Bioware game I played, on PS3. And I loved it. One of my all time favourite games. Then I played KotOR, and loved it, if slightly less because it wasn't really my style of game. I never really got into Dragon Age: Origins, and I haven't played any of their other IPs, but they are undoubtedly my favourite developer. The worst they've done is a buggy game in a new genre, according to fans' complaints. I bought Mass Effect 3 Collector's Edition, and I loved it. I even found that the Extended Cut has gotten rid of all of my non-petty complaints about the ending. And it was free.

TL;DR, I saw no drop in average quality between KotOR and ME3. The only difference is the budget and the Prothean DLC, which would have ignored all hate had it come out a month later. I would blame this hate on nostalgia if I wanted to be lynched. Bioware is the best gaming developer in my opinion, having consistently created excellent games.

Also, to quote Yahtzee, maybe fans were upset about the ending because it WAS ending.

 

[DarkhoIlow]

The only way they can redeem themselves in my eyes is what path they will choose to take with Dragon Age 3.

I really hope they will take more from Dragon Age Origins(which I loved) and less from Dragon Age 2.

 

[In Search of Username]

Eh, I forgave them already. DA2 was about as good as the first for me, ME3's ending was pretty good after the extended cut was released, and as for TOR, I have little to compare it to since it's the only MMO I've played, and it seemed alright (So maybe I'll begin to hate Bioware as soon as Guild Wars 2 is released, who knows? ). But yeah, I'll still keep buying Bioware games. As it stands, they've not done anything that matches the standards of KOTOR or the first Mass Effect recently, but who cares, those are some of my favourite games of all time, they're allowed a few mistakes after that.

 

[Savagezion]

So why is it that DA2 and ME3 have had such a controversial impact on the community that people just automatically refuse to give the time of day to something branded with "Bioware" on it anymore?

EA has pulled some other team in to do C&C5. This other team is not Bioware, however, since EA owns the brand, they are now calling that team Bioware. If it will sell more copies of Sim CIty 5, EA will rename Maxis Bioware. "Bioware" is now making Facebook apps; and no I don't mean Dragon Age Facebook apps I mean cutesy "Yeti saves Christmas" apps. "Bioware" isn't Bioware anymore, it is a brand EA can stamp on shit to make you and/or other Bioware fans to buy it. "Bioware" doesn't mean anything anymore.

 

[NightHawk21]

I think a lot of people just feel betrayed. The same thing is happening right now with Blizz and Diablo 3 I think. Many people were expecting to get something long lasting, and what was shipped was unplayable for a couple days, continuously down for maintenance, and is still plagued with bugs and lack of things to do. Bioware is a little different, because they have taken steps to appease the fans, so as far as I'm concerned they pretty much made up for their mistake. Even not having played ME3, I know I won't forget about the situation and Bioware's mistakes for a long time still, but I'm not going to actively avoiding buying one of their games if it looks good. Blizz on the other hand has done very little to appease its community so far, and I'm skeptical it will.

 

[WoW Killer]

I dislike that a set of developers can take the blame for shady business decisions unconnected to them. Bioware's reputation has degraded due to the business practices of EA. It doesn't have anything to do with their games. Mass Effect 3 was not a bad game. Ok it had a dodgy ending, but that's a very superficial thing. The gameplay was good. The multiplayer by all accounts was a surprisingly worthy idea. It was hated on long before release, and the same haters found whatever they could to complain about after they had bought the game (which of course they shouldn't have done).

There's a current trend in the gaming community (there's another obvious recent example that I don't even need to name) that as soon as a game becomes unpopular due to dubious practices like DRM, DLC etc. then it will be attacked from every angle with unreasonable scrutiny. This is dangerous, because mass complaints do not go unnoticed by developers and producers. If enough people complain about a gameplay aspect, then this will influence the directions taken by future games. If you complain dishonestly about gameplay aspects, then the directions taken by future games will end up being against your wishes. A certain game I don't need to name has come under mass criticism for a specific gameplay aspect. I can sum this aspect up very concisely. People are complaining because the endgame is too difficult. What do you think the result of these complaints will be for any developers and producers reading them? They will dumb down their games even more in future. Do you really want that to happen? Complain more about the quality of voice acting or graphics in games and producers will throw even more money at such superficial elements rather than at gameplay. Be clear and honest about what you dislike, and let it be known.

Anyway, Bioware is just a name. There's a set of people (developers, specifically) that used to call themselves Bioware, but that meaning of the word is redundant now. SW:TOR wasn't even made by the old Bioware (it was primarily former member of Mythic). If you're blaming Bioware, the people, for things done by Bioware, the company, then you're falling for the entire brand name delusion. That's the reason EA bought out Bioware in the first place; they were a well respected name. A name.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I get the feeling that Bioware has become to gaming what Frank Miller is to the Comic realm. Both have early careers that many people would claim are legendary (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, KotOR in the one case; Daredevil, Dark Knight Returns, Batman: Year One). Then in recent years they've done increasingly shady, shoddy work. I don't think Bioware is as bad as Miller at this point but they have plenty of room to fall. I look forward to Bioware and Miller teaming up for a video game adaptation of Holy Terror.

 

[bafrali]

Yes we totally should. How will they get a good sleep at night otherwise?

Neither will some complainers reduce the money they make, nor our forgiveness will improve their development quality or work ethic. So what is the point of begging forgiveness for some corporation that is partners with EA.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I've moved on to not caring. I'm never buying another of their games at launch, however. I will wait and see if they actually try to improve things. If the pros outweigh the cons, I'll think about it.

 

[Vampire cat]

For someone that was never a longtime Bioware fan (like me), the latest games from them it what was supposed to introduce me to the company. Getting into something new and being disapointed is a bit like taking a bite out of a sandwich you don't know whats in. Everyone has said it tastes soooo good cause the guy that makes them has made such great sandwiches in the past. But your first bite isn't very nice, and the next one is even worse! Sure, maybe the third bite WILL be good, but after spending $100 on two bites you didn't much care for, taking the 3rd one doesn't tempt much, regardless of price and hype =p.

I really suck at saying clever things so I'm sure someone will completely misunderstand and we'll have a big row. *puts up fists* well, bring it on!

I guess I can compare it to how I feel about Ubisoft. They made some good smoked salmon, and I liked it a lot. But then they started smearing poo on it. No matter how hard you try to enjoy the salmon after that, you just can't get around that smell and taste...

...

I'm hungry!

 

[Eamar]

I forgave Bioware after playing the ME3 Extended Cut. I'll probably get some flak for saying it, but they managed to save it in my eyes, and I was happy with the ending (or rather, happy that it had a proper ending at last).

Spoiler

[small]And no, I still don't like the Starchild or organics vs synthetics bullcrap, but it was tolerable with a decent epilogue and a few ret-cons[/small]

I'll admit, I had (perhaps somewhat childishly) been refusing to buy any of their older games that I'd wanted to try out until I was satisfied with the ME3 ending. I know it's illogical, but I just didn't think it was ok for them to release an unfinished game and get away with it. On finishing the Extended Cut, I immediately bought both KOTOR and Jade Empire.

Now, this doesn't mean I won't be wary of any future Bioware releases. ME3 taught me a lesson about pre-ordering, for example, and there are several shitty business practices evident in ME3 that I'm not sure I'd want to put up with again (the shoe-horned in, compulsory multiplayer to enable DRM; taking out an important chunk of the story and selling it as day one DLC; fucking Origin). But I certainly won't be refusing to buy future games if they sound like something I'd enjoy, nor will I ***** about any future games without playing them myself just because they carry the Bioware label.

ME3 got me so mad because Bioware has done such an amazing job with the series. I never would have believed that I could have got so emotional involved in a game series before Mass Effect. Dragon Age: Origins (plus Awakening) is another of my favourite games of all time, and the one I've put most time into by far. I'm not about to deny myself another experience like that unless I really have to.

 

[Aircross]

I'll forgive Bioware when they abandon EA and start giving themselves enough time to put out a 100% polished product instead of a 95% polished product.

I don't care if it takes 7 years as long as the end result is fantastic.

 

[AbstractStream]

Bioware isn't interested in my forgiveness. They may like that they have a loyal fanbase, but that itself is just one point in getting into your wallet. They dont love me. No developer does. They dont even know me.

They are in this because we pay games. Not because the they want us to like them.

And if a product they make is worth the pricetag upon it, then ill get out my wallet and pay for it. Regardless if it says Bioware, EA or whatever.

As cynical as this may sound to others, there's truth to this and I agree with you (although I think it's more of the publisher not caring rather than the developer). Funny that it didn't hit me until the aftermath of ME3.

 

[shrekfan246]

Because they were not Bioware quality games, they were EA quality games. They were mediocre, passable, painfully okay. And they had many issues, not just ME3's ending, or DA2's gays.

Well, it didn't take long for someone to bring up EA, huh? I suppose that's only fair, I tried to avoid going into EA-hate mode but I suppose that's probably a big part of the reason so many people are angry with Bioware in the first place.

I never said those games didn't have their own issues, I said that despite the issues they were still pretty decent games. This is getting into the realm of personal opinion, but objectively speaking Dragon Age 2 looked nice, controlled fairly well, had good voice acting and decent writing, a working combat/skill system, and actually tried to push its way out of the rigid "Bioware" guillotine of "YOU are the ONLY ONE who can SAVE THE WORLD!" It had problems - Recycled assets, a bland story, some people didn't like the "simplified" armor system for companions or how the combat and skills were flip-flopped to be more like an MMO-style game than a "true RPG", and on release the DirectX 11 support was pretty buggy and terrible. I'm sure all of the weapon&armor bundle DLCs didn't help endear it to the public eye either.

Mass Effect 3 had a simplified dialogue system, it had less reason to interact with squad-mates between missions, it had multi-player, it shrunk down the number of side-missions a person could take, and it had a lot of plot-holes and Dei Ex Machina, but it also had much smoother and faster combat, a more in-depth skill system than had been in Mass Effect 2, and while this is my own opinion I thought the writing was the strongest of the entire trilogy. Who didn't love that moment with Garrus on the top of the Citadel? Who didn't love Grunt's crowning moment of awesome? Who didn't feel heartbroken during Mordin's scenes? Who wasn't crestfallen when they discovered they had to choose between the Geth and the Quarians (though that brings up the issues with the final incarnation of the Paragon/Renegade system)?

Bioware did a terrible mistake in story telling. They do have a long history of releasing good games, quality games, games that are memorable, told well, presented in a way we all enjoy and are interested in seeing. Those 3 are...meh. Decent is not what Bioware is known for. And Bioware doesn't seem to really care. They're doing EA type things.

I believe I already covered Mass Effect 3 above, but I'll agree that the actual storytelling aspect of Dragon Age 2 fell heavily flat. Bioware didn't seem to get the change of pacing required when you switch to a story that is centrally focused on the life of one person, instead of one person's journey. As far as Bioware not caring anymore, well I'd like to believe that as a business, they never really cared to begin with but I wasn't exactly following video game news until about 2009 so I don't actually know. But I've heard that a lot of the people who used to work there before the EA acquisition have since left, and to me that sounds like it would explain a lot.

See, the problem is this, emotions aren't a resource to be spent up. You can't waste them. Please don't say something so silly.

I'm not so sure about that. Haven't you ever felt really drained and tired after a prolonged time of being really angry, sad, or happy?

Also, Cars was still a great movie, it was pixar quality, pixar style. It was what they were known for. People probably did swear off batman movies, but the difference with the movies is new directors, it would be like swearing off a game franchise, then the IP gets sold to a new developer, but you don't care. Makes no sense. Different people.

A lot of people complained about Cars, actually. Because a lot of people didn't believe it was "Pixar quality" when it was released. And when it got a sequel they were even more perplexed. And if that's the case, why have so many people claimed that Halo should just die off? Different developer, so people shouldn't care, right?

I can't think of a real example at the moment, so for purely hypothetical's sake take Final Fantasy. A lot of people got burned by how XII and XIII were. If Square Enix were to outsource the next Final Fantasy game to a completely different developer, do you think people would buy it just because it's not a Final Fantasy game made by Square Enix?

They are going a direction we don't like. That's why we hate it. They're going a very bad direction. They've taken good stories with flat characters, and made boring stories with flat characters with more romance options. We don't like it. We don't want to see Bioware go away. We do want them to stay, but as what they were, not what they are becoming.

First of all, the quality of a story as you're presenting it here is entirely subjective. You may think Mass Effect 3 was boring. I didn't.

And my entire point is that Bioware shouldn't be forced into staying as what they were just to appease their fans. They should be able to change, they should be able to do different things in their games. Maybe they're changing in awkward ways that don't really help themselves, and maybe it was forced on them by EA, but the point is that all of the "fan outrage" over every little change isn't doing any good.

 

[Fappy]

Its hard not to smell EA's influence in many of Bioware's recent blunders. The cynic in me says this a trend that will only get worse.