Weapon degradation in games

[Something Amyss]

I dislike it because it's pretty much an extra layer of chore/management.

 

[Omega500]

I like how it was done in far cry 2.
Were as the weapon got more and more worn out it would jam/misfire more often and you would have to wait a while, while it got unjammed. the longer you used that weapon without replacing it it would break and you tossed it away. that in a survival horror film would be awesome adds a whole new set of tension. Would also be sweet if they had panic reloading were it took you longer.

I like it in fallout games not so much in skyrim as it got old very fast.

 

[Frotality]

im against the improper use of any gameplay element, and for the proper use of any gameplay element. the fallout series probably does it best: survival and scavenging is central to the game, and most gear you find or that is used by enemies is in poor condition. weapons in mediocre condition arent worthless, theyre as they should be: standard. fully repaired items are an advantage, and repairing items is a dedicated skill, making item upkeep a viable tactical decision rather than a requisite money sink. or even a game like condemned, which focuses on the use of improvised weaponry; the tension and scare factor of that game would be greatly reduced if you could just use that flaming nailboard for the whole level.

MMOs tend to implement it poorly, as literally nothing more than a money sink. skyrim could've used a system similar to fallout's, it couldve made smithing a little less overpowered.

 

[Proto Taco]

I don't mind weapon degradation as long as it only impacts immersion. Minecraft sort of gets away with it because it's built around it, but even then the repair system they have implemented is more than a bit unreasonable.

Monster Hunter 3, on the other hand, handles it rather well I feel. A matter of fact I feel MH3 has one of the best character maintenance systems I've ever played with. Back on topic though; your weapon gets dull, you sharpen it. It's not costly, it's unobtrusive and even though it's quick and easy to do your DPS is punished for not doing it.

That, in my opinion, is the best kind of immersion; disciplinary but not punishing.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

I like the concept, but it generally isn't implemented well. For example, it was a really bad mechanic in FarCry2 that had so much potential. Had they made the weapons degrade at a better rate and have dropped weapons in decent condition (in addition to making it harder to get brand new ones) it could have been a really cool mechanic.

 

[Ravinoff]

I like how it was done in far cry 2.
Were as the weapon got more and more worn out it would jam/misfire more often and you would have to wait a while, while it got unjammed. the longer you used that weapon without replacing it it would break and you tossed it away. that in a survival horror film would be awesome adds a whole new set of tension. Would also be sweet if they had panic reloading were it took you longer.

I like it in fallout games not so much in skyrim as it got old very fast.

But the weapon degradation in Far Cry 2 was absolutely awful. You play as one of several hardened mercenaries who have absolutely no idea how to do even basic maintenance on their guns, not to mention that the guns themselves are apparently made out of tissue paper and tinfoil. I've seen pictures of type II AK-47s (manufactured 1949-1954) that have been kicking around various warzones for decades that look better than an AK after an in-game week of use in FC2.

 

[Rattja]

This reminded me of Diablo 1, the first time I encountered this type of thing. I didn't mind it then, and still don't. But there were one thing about it that I found interesting. The warrior class had a skill that could repair items anywhere, but the total durability was cut in half whenever you did it. Makes sense really, that in a pinch you can slap something toghether, but won't be as good as your local blacksmith.

As people say, it's all about how it's done. I like it for the most part, but would like to see it be more important, and not a pointless goldsink.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Fallout 3 has it half right, you start off with a weapon at 30% max HP, say max HP is 4000 have a 50% chance to damage your weapon with every attack(IE you have 1500-2400 attacks at 30% max HP of a weapon before hitting), at 50% max its a 30% chance to damage it with each attack at 100% its a 15% chance to damage it with each attack. Critical hits never damage your weapon. Also at 100% your weapon dose 125% damage and has roughly 12000 attacks at 25% it dose 50% damage.

Also a weapon should never break rather it falls to 25% where it dose 50% damage and has a 30% chance of hitting and doing little to no damage or if a range weapon it misfires.


ggaahhh the numbers are jumbled up in my head but you get the idea....

I also believe in 3 to 6 tier levels for HP maxs, IE copper=4000,silver-10000, gold = 25000. Fallout 3 lack tiers for weapons and random stat rolls for drops which annoyed me to no end.

 

[Fox12]

Well, I despised having a rare or unique weapon in New Vegas, only for it to break and cost 5000+ bottlecaps to fix. That was unforgivable. Fallout 3 handled it better. I loved it in TLoU because it made every encounter tense, and forced mo to think of every fight as a puzzle. "Alright, I can use my machete twice to kill two clickers, but there are still eight runners, and I only have two bullets left..."

 

[Username Redacted]

So...weapon degradation, are you in favour of it or against it?

I'll go ahead and finish that sentence for you:

Weapon degradation in games can (usually) fuck right off.

If there's a system where the weapons become less effective over time and can be repaired than I'm mostly OK with that (see also: Fallout 3 and FNV). If the weapons degrade over time but if not sufficiently maintained can break completely that just makes the game a worse experience without IMO adding anything of value. I'm thinking of specifically Dark Cloud 1 where I very nearly ended up with an unwinnable situation as my characters primary weapon broke during the final dungeon because I got mobbed and didn't have an opportunity to repair it prior to it breaking. I was scrambling like mad to see if
I had an earlier save file. Very obnoxious to deal with that.

 

[FalloutJack]

I'm not sure I liked it in Fallout, really, and the only other game I ever had it in was Dark Cloud. Now, these are make-sense gimmicks in the games that work, but I could just as easily do without 'em. For instance, the next Fallout should have weapon quality maybe, with a degree of backfire or misfire dependent on how good it is, but it shouldn't turn to shit in your hands unless damaged by force, and you should still be able to effect repairs.

 

[ZZoMBiE13]

Depends on the game. Weapon degradation is a core part of Dead Rising and I don't think the game is poorer for it. It's part of the challenge.

It worked fine in Fallout 3 too. And it kind of made sense in that game so I wasn't opposed.

It's all relative to the situation and game at hand. I wouldn't want it to be the norm though. I don't want my Halo assault rifle to need patching up after every firefight.

 

[Sectan]

I enjoyed it in Fallout 3 and NV. If you play as a scavenger, you go through old buildings or camps to find the parts to repair your weapons. Some mods added weapon jamming that occured more often. Granted it's not "OH BOY MY WEAPON JAMMED!", but it adds another layer of tension and variety in the fights. Granted there are wrong ways to do it. Just having it as a money drop every time you go into a town gets a bit old. Permanent weapon breaks, such as in minecraft don't sit too well with me and the repair cost is a bit high early on.

 

[Abomination]

I think it can work but you have to put some thought into it. What are you trying to achieve with it, gameplay? realism? If it's realism, daily maintenance is probably a bigger factor than repair. In literary fiction and real history as well any good adventure/soldier should take time around the camp fire to oil & sharpen their sword. So the Oblivion method of carrying around dozens of smith hammers to occasionally stop and tinker at your weapon is nonsense.

So for realism it should be some combination of daily maintenance keeping your weapons in top shape, this can simply be part of camping and various skill sets and points can increase the effectiveness. If the weapon breaks, you take it to town for a smith to repair.

Now how does fantasy set in? Taking one fictional literary setting for example, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series (and my user name is merely a coincidence), the 'magic' swords are unique because they don't break and never get dull. Wouldn't that be an optimal way of making your games magic weapons unique? If you're in a medieval setting and magic is real, the first thing a crazy wizard would do is make a sword that's freakin on fire! Then practicality should set in and you start making swords that keep their sharpness and don't break. And to me an enchantment seems like something that's best degraded by time, not use. So if you're adventurer is raiding some old tomb and pries a big ass sword from an old corpse in a coffin, then maybe you need to bring it to and pay an enchanter for a one time restore but after that it's good for the life span of the hero.

But all that is a whole lot of work and planning to put into a game. So if the only feasible choice is a crumby oblivion style thing or nothing for a game like Project Eternity then the latter option is probably best. Though I still think it shouldn't be too hard having mundane weapons that break and unique magic weapons that don't, since the game is called Project Eternity and all.

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Non-enchanted weapon upkeep should probably require you to have some equipment that would be used for it. A whetstone, weapon oil, scabbard and... rag? Every night you'll use a bit of oil so I guess you could run out.

The mechanics surrounding proper weapon degradation requires a total overhaul of most games. It's not just weapons, it's also armour. Dents, rust, leather cracking... I want to see a game that when a poorly equipped enemy hits you in the chest you take ZERO damage, your steel breastplate absorbs the whole thing but the internal durability has taken a small immeasurable decrease to that region of your armour. Maybe your character staggers for a bit, loses some "endurance" but otherwise you're good. It'd open up to all sorts of situations - weapons that flat out penetrate armour, weapons that do a lot of damage to armour or maybe a weapon that does a bit of both.

Balance issues? Make the stuff as expensive as it always was. A full set of plate armour is supposed to cost more than 10 peasants could earn in their lifetime.

I feel games are missing some interesting concepts or considerations when engaging in combat in medieval settings.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

I don't mind weapon degredation IF gathering and using resources and scarcity is already a significant part of gameplay. I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about weapon degradation in Minecraft because that's what Minecraft is all about--gathering materials, building things, and fighting scarcity. The system has to be intuitive and satisfying to use, not just a hurdle the player has to keep jumping over for no reason. Though I'm mostly speaking in theoretical terms, as apart from Minecraft I haven't really played any other games with weapons that degrade, at least as far as I can recall.

 

[RandV80]

I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Non-enchanted weapon upkeep should probably require you to have some equipment that would be used for it. A whetstone, weapon oil, scabbard and... rag? Every night you'll use a bit of oil so I guess you could run out.

The mechanics surrounding proper weapon degradation requires a total overhaul of most games. It's not just weapons, it's also armour. Dents, rust, leather cracking... I want to see a game that when a poorly equipped enemy hits you in the chest you take ZERO damage, your steel breastplate absorbs the whole thing but the internal durability has taken a small immeasurable decrease to that region of your armour. Maybe your character staggers for a bit, loses some "endurance" but otherwise you're good. It'd open up to all sorts of situations - weapons that flat out penetrate armour, weapons that do a lot of damage to armour or maybe a weapon that does a bit of both.

Balance issues? Make the stuff as expensive as it always was. A full set of plate armour is supposed to cost more than 10 peasants could earn in their lifetime.

I feel games are missing some interesting concepts or considerations when engaging in combat in medieval settings.

I've seen one system like this which I've always liked. While I'm up on all the geek culture I have very little actual experience playing pen & paper RPG's, but the one game I did play with friends a few times way back in the late 90's called Palladium, a medieval fantasy offshoot of another sci-fi/multiverse one called Rifts.

Anyways how they handled it is every set of armour would have it's own durability HP and DC hit rating. So maybe Leather Armour would have something like a DC of 12 and 80 hp and full plate might have 18 dc and 250 hp. The DM roles the D20 for the attacker, you role the D20 to parry. If the attacker beats your D20+parry modifier with a roll that is over the armour DC then your character takes the damage, if it beats you but the roll is under your armour AC then your armour takes the damage.

I later got introduced to proper AD&D through Balder's Gate but I always liked and preferred the way they did things in Palladium. Much more involved than simply compiling everything into a single hit or miss number and it makes a whole lot more sense.

 

[Abomination]

I've seen one system like this which I've always liked. While I'm up on all the geek culture I have very little actual experience playing pen & paper RPG's, but the one game I did play with friends a few times way back in the late 90's called Palladium, a medieval fantasy offshoot of another sci-fi/multiverse one called Rifts.

Anyways how they handled it is every set of armour would have it's own durability HP and DC hit rating. So maybe Leather Armour would have something like a DC of 12 and 80 hp and full plate might have 18 dc and 250 hp. The DM roles the D20 for the attacker, you role the D20 to parry. If the attacker beats your D20+parry modifier with a roll that is over the armour DC then your character takes the damage, if it beats you but the roll is under your armour AC then your armour takes the damage.

I later got introduced to proper AD&D through Balder's Gate but I always liked and preferred the way they did things in Palladium. Much more involved than simply compiling everything into a single hit or miss number and it makes a whole lot more sense.

The problem is that doing it with pen and paper it becomes really damn complex, better to have a video game take care of those calculations for you when you swing your sword at a bugger or a bugger swings one at you.

Hitbox based armour would be awesome.

 

[Jacco]

I fucking hate it. I will literally stop playing a game if it is implemented badly. I'm looking at you, Dead Rising you piece of shit.

The only game I've found where it works okay (mostly because it's easy to repair it on the fly) is Last of Us. I wasn't a fan of the one use thing for upgraded melee weapons and knives, but I could tolerate it because you found enough of them to make it relatively easy to repair. And the way the combat was structured was such that you weren't constantly fighitng off hordes of zombies or guys with it. It was purely a "get you out the shit right now" item.

Dead Rising was the opposite. As someone said above, there is no point in getting awesome weapons if you can only use them 10 times. My friend handed me a literal lightsaber in DR2 and I went to town thinking it was immune to degradation since it was a silly over powered weapon. NOPE. The moment it broke and I realized what happened I turned my XBOX off and literally haven't put that disk back in it since.

 

[rob_simple]

I think it's cool in theory --especially in games like Fallout 3, as you mentioned-- but I've had one too many situations where my rifle breaks at just the exact moment I didn't need it to, to ever think it's a good thing.

It also annoys me when it's just based on percentage of usage, not the situation it's being used in. If my sword degrades with every swing whether I'm slashing through grass or battering it off walls, it feels more like the developers wanted to add it but didn't want the headache of having it make sense.

If it was there as an option that could be toggled I'd be fine with that, but that's an awful lot of extra dev work for a feature that potentially will never be used.

Dead Rising was the opposite. As someone said above, there is no point in getting awesome weapons if you can only use them 10 times. My friend handed me a literal lightsaber in DR2 and I went to town thinking it was immune to degradation since it was a silly over powered weapon. NOPE. The moment it broke and I realized what happened I turned my XBOX off and literally haven't put that disk back in it since.

You speak the truth, my friend. As if the bosses in Dead Rising weren't enough of a chore, I loved having to make up six of the same super-weapon and then constantly dropping them when I got stun-locked by the boss' over-powered attacks. One of the biggest examples of a great idea horribly implemented I've ever seen in gaming.

 

[loc978]

I love the idea, but implementation is always spotty at best.

The best implementation I've seen yet was in Fallout 3: Wanderer's Edition. Slowed rates down, made a repair check debuff that only went away in the presence of a workbench (and only affected weapon/armor repairs made in the inventory screen, not any other repair skill checks), implemented weapon cleaning (repair guns with abraxo cleaner, et cetera)...

Now if they'd gone just a little further with that... I understand they couldn't break everything down into weapon components each with their own condition stat and separate carbon buildup stat (for normal guns only, of course) the way I'd like... but they could have at least put a cap on how far a weapon can be repaired with just parts, and a minimum condition for cleaning/maintenance to be effective (maybe put that cutoff in the same place that New Vegas put the stat degradation cutoff... which was also a good idea). I'd also like to have seen them implement the time passage mechanic they added to building things at a workbench to repairs made in the inventory screen.

Maybe one day...

Oh, also... every MMO degradation/repair mechanic I've ever seen has been lazily designed shite.

One really early (and simplistic) example that I thought was done fairly well: Brandish [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandish] (reading someone's post about enchanted weapons never breaking or losing sharpness reminded me of it). So long as you could stomach the perspective. I've only met a few other people who ever played that game, and none but me who beat it. Anyone here?