Wet
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Well I tend to say meh. If I'm going to be shooting my enemy for the kill, I will be aiming for the head, 10% will only scatter the brains more. Besides, the context with the female character is that you will try to seduce men anyways. I think that the results from that perk are within the margin of chance. I also noticed that most of the perks in Fallout 3 tend to be really useless, probably due to the fact that you receive them every level. They mostly get your stats up, or pile you more useless money. The Fallout spirit is that every perk is important, how many got your stats up in Fallout 2? About 5-6 I would say, all the other 45 did an interesting thing, like Slayer, Silent Runner and my favorite - Kama Sutra Master.vandimar77 said:
What I originally was saying that being a woman in Fallout 2 barely changed anything, the changes I made myself by giving her 10 Intelligence, Charisma and Agility. Besides my cruel intention of lying to people and specializing in one mean Alien Blaster (or Solar Scorcher) the next moment, the game only changes how people call you (asshole - *****) and nothing more.
I guess JRPGs are being left out of this debate out of spite. Oh well, I haven't played enough FF or Dragon Warrior to think of a female character that stands out to me (yes, I have not played FF7.) It seems that women in games these days are either silent leads (Fallout), martyrs (Peach, Zelda), misandrists (Speed Buster from No More Heroes and Morrigan form Darkstalkers), or a complete *****, like Rubi.
Thinking about quality female roles, Alice Murray from Army of Two comes to mind. She just relays mission data, and only does her job; that may be subtle or underlying, but she's still there, and that was enough for me to refrain from not liking her. She does come across as bitter, but I don't think that has anything to do with her being a woman.
This may be a stretch, but I think another quality female role is Midna, from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. She introduced is early in the stroy, she has resolve, she has character; everything for a good female lead. Sure, she has to be rescued at one point, but so does Colin, so I think that balances out.
My point is that maybe society hasn't put enough women in authoritative roles to warrant them a serious role in games; being a ***** isn't serious, it's just annoying. That or all video game story-writers are misogynists.
Thinking about quality female roles, Alice Murray from Army of Two comes to mind. She just relays mission data, and only does her job; that may be subtle or underlying, but she's still there, and that was enough for me to refrain from not liking her. She does come across as bitter, but I don't think that has anything to do with her being a woman.
This may be a stretch, but I think another quality female role is Midna, from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. She introduced is early in the stroy, she has resolve, she has character; everything for a good female lead. Sure, she has to be rescued at one point, but so does Colin, so I think that balances out.
My point is that maybe society hasn't put enough women in authoritative roles to warrant them a serious role in games; being a ***** isn't serious, it's just annoying. That or all video game story-writers are misogynists.
It is a shame that there are pretty much very few female (Primary) charachters that are relateable or in very harsh terms useful to a story.
It seems that most women are secondary characters, and do very well in that category. Ashley Williams was good in Mass Effect, Dr. Tennenbaum was mysterious and helpful in BioShock, and Star Cross, was very helpful in Fallout 3.
Why couldn't they put some of the same ideas from those characters, into primary ones?
It seems that most women are secondary characters, and do very well in that category. Ashley Williams was good in Mass Effect, Dr. Tennenbaum was mysterious and helpful in BioShock, and Star Cross, was very helpful in Fallout 3.
Why couldn't they put some of the same ideas from those characters, into primary ones?
One of the things I've always fallen out with you over, Yahtzee, is your treatment of Lara.
Admittedly Jolie's version of her is closing on one dimensional - her bra size - but there's a reasonable story being told in most of the games. And it's far less stupid than Mario, Sonic or Master Chief. (OH NOEZ...YOUR ALONE AGAIN...SAVE UZZ)
Eye candy she may be, but there's a story there. A honest to goodness story that tells a Batman-esque version of events. It may not be Shakespear, but it's already better than Miller.
There are moments ("Where.Is.My.Mother!") where Lara actually shines as an interesting character, and with the slight flirtations with the bad guys, there's a hint of a third dimension.
Don't quash the one girl of gaming that can have a life, be badass and still sell games. And kleptomania isn't always a bad thing, is it Trilby?
Now, that's hardly a put down, is it? Not in the computer action game world where even its hero Freeman smashes, kills and steals with reckless abandon. Chell probably would run away with the Companion Cube down her front if she could get it past the scanners.
Admittedly Jolie's version of her is closing on one dimensional - her bra size - but there's a reasonable story being told in most of the games. And it's far less stupid than Mario, Sonic or Master Chief. (OH NOEZ...YOUR ALONE AGAIN...SAVE UZZ)
Eye candy she may be, but there's a story there. A honest to goodness story that tells a Batman-esque version of events. It may not be Shakespear, but it's already better than Miller.
There are moments ("Where.Is.My.Mother!") where Lara actually shines as an interesting character, and with the slight flirtations with the bad guys, there's a hint of a third dimension.
Don't quash the one girl of gaming that can have a life, be badass and still sell games. And kleptomania isn't always a bad thing, is it Trilby?
I see where your going with midna, lets not forget that she saves link too!The Noble Shade said:
Bah, there are loads of examples. Alyx is just a more recent and popular one. Lucca, Ayla, Terra, Celes, Agrias, Cortana (shut up), Jade, Alicia and Lin, just off the top of my head. Bonus points if you can figure out where all those girls are from.Edzor said:
As for the "best," I'd probably say Lucca or Alicia. Lucca is absolutely essential to the quest while still possessing her own backstory, personality and life outside of the "game" part of the game, and Alicia goes from a scared little girl to mighty warrior without ever losing her sensitivity. She might not act like Kratos, but she'd probably fight him if there was no other choice.
So.. now all I can think of is a female character doing a waltz through a hallway drinking tea with her pinky raised while wasting people with a shotgun,,,, Thanks Yahtzee,,,
Really though, well written and true. I am beginning to wonder if developers get scared when they are creating female characters and make them over the top. My real theory is that game developers design female characters based on their wives.
Really though, well written and true. I am beginning to wonder if developers get scared when they are creating female characters and make them over the top. My real theory is that game developers design female characters based on their wives.
Nice he admits to it, altohugh it's sad it has to be mentioned that he's backpedalling at all. People should be allowed to make points like that without fear of it spiralling into a pool of offense, misinterpretation and discrimination, especially in an article like this.
Also didn't realise how nicely he writes articles.
he also apologised without undercutting it with an insult or joke, wow.
Also didn't realise how nicely he writes articles.
he also apologised without undercutting it with an insult or joke, wow.
How about Jade from beyond good and evil. can fight, is polite (unlike rubi), and someone you can relate too. An ideal model then?
For once, I massively agree with Yahtzee's point here. While you often see polls, top tens and other such lists for 'memorable' female characters in games, and the 'good' ones are known to many (Aeris from FF7, Alyx Vance from HL2, Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, Faith from Mirror's Edge etc etc) it is counter-weighed if not full-on swamped by the vast array of 'bad' girl characters.
I can see what Yahtzee means by the exploitation angle, but even so, the girls in something like Frank Miller's Sin City, or Tarantino's Death Proof are not psychotic bitches. Without renting out the back-catalogue of Russ Meyer and going into infinite detail about Faster Pussycat Kill Kill and Ilsa the Wicked Warden, it is fairly easy to see the roots of the character in Wet forming from movies like Romanzo Criminale, Aliens and Smokin Aces, only to be dragged down a bit later down the production stage by the likes of Barb Wire...
For my sins, I am currently playing Risen. Feelings about that RPG aside, I have so far encountered the gamut of female stereotypes. Ok, crap example because of the limited number of character models meaning they all look largly the same, so the prostitute with no conscience looks almost the same as the one wearing no clothes but spouting prophecy, and also look similar to the two female characters I care about on a level other than 'NPC to talk to', so its not a question of who has the biggest boobs. How they react and talk to me, the player is the main piece of intrigue here, and Piranha Bites have almost got it right in a few places. Its easy to pigeonhole them, making them a good, almost 'museum piece' source to point to and say 'this is what games designers think this kind of person is like'.
Returning to topic, and yes, I am also a fan of Soul Calibur, have owned Dead or Alive at some point in my life and actully paid money for Onechanbara (staff discount is my only defence) so I am the hated male chauvanist exploiter who propagates the desire for big boobs and outrageously impractical clothing in the games I play. I could argue that this is catch 22, if they weren't there, they wouldn't sell, and the games are actually fun to play in the first place, but for every Ninja Gaiden 2 there is a Dreamfall or Mass Effect in my collection. Some people found the female characters in Jericho jarring, I found it rather eye-opening. Tough-gal exteriors aside, there was that bit where the chaotician broke down into gibbers and the blood-witch was asked to comfort her. For a period of about a minute all pretence of bitchiness and hard-ass were gone, replaced with actual intelligent introspective. "She gets like this. She still suffers from night terrors, and sometimes wets the bed." Its para-phrased from memory, so probably not exactly as said, but the delivery is actually caring, concerned. I'm guesing Clive Barker had a bit more to say on that bit than some of the rest of it. He took the lesbian hard-ass babe stereotype and softened it at the edges just enough to care when she died later in the game.
I like my women real. I'm sad to say that in today's vacuous society the made-up personality of a well-designed female games character is a lot more appealing than the pig-shit thick, Heat, More and other gossip-mag reading 'woman' that is sadly the common norm in real life right now. I'm not saying I'm in love with Alyx Vance (I think my little brother had a crush on Chun Li when he was 10 though) or Lara Croft, but I have often found myself wishing someone as well-rounded and intelligent actually existed in real life and was as easy to find. Games are, after all, an escape.
Yahtzee's comments struck a chord here because I have created a female character which I use in a lot of the table-top RPG sessions I run, and am trying to write a book involving her. As a heroine, she needs to be bad-ass on occasion, without falling into the trap of becoming a *****, or else people won't be able to warm to her and feel for her when tragedy occurs. The sentiments and comments he made here act as a sort of warning, and guideline, putting into perspective the perception of female characters as a whole.
But then, there is that female scientist from Command & Conquer: Renegade... she was cool for all the wrong reasons.
I can see what Yahtzee means by the exploitation angle, but even so, the girls in something like Frank Miller's Sin City, or Tarantino's Death Proof are not psychotic bitches. Without renting out the back-catalogue of Russ Meyer and going into infinite detail about Faster Pussycat Kill Kill and Ilsa the Wicked Warden, it is fairly easy to see the roots of the character in Wet forming from movies like Romanzo Criminale, Aliens and Smokin Aces, only to be dragged down a bit later down the production stage by the likes of Barb Wire...
For my sins, I am currently playing Risen. Feelings about that RPG aside, I have so far encountered the gamut of female stereotypes. Ok, crap example because of the limited number of character models meaning they all look largly the same, so the prostitute with no conscience looks almost the same as the one wearing no clothes but spouting prophecy, and also look similar to the two female characters I care about on a level other than 'NPC to talk to', so its not a question of who has the biggest boobs. How they react and talk to me, the player is the main piece of intrigue here, and Piranha Bites have almost got it right in a few places. Its easy to pigeonhole them, making them a good, almost 'museum piece' source to point to and say 'this is what games designers think this kind of person is like'.
Returning to topic, and yes, I am also a fan of Soul Calibur, have owned Dead or Alive at some point in my life and actully paid money for Onechanbara (staff discount is my only defence) so I am the hated male chauvanist exploiter who propagates the desire for big boobs and outrageously impractical clothing in the games I play. I could argue that this is catch 22, if they weren't there, they wouldn't sell, and the games are actually fun to play in the first place, but for every Ninja Gaiden 2 there is a Dreamfall or Mass Effect in my collection. Some people found the female characters in Jericho jarring, I found it rather eye-opening. Tough-gal exteriors aside, there was that bit where the chaotician broke down into gibbers and the blood-witch was asked to comfort her. For a period of about a minute all pretence of bitchiness and hard-ass were gone, replaced with actual intelligent introspective. "She gets like this. She still suffers from night terrors, and sometimes wets the bed." Its para-phrased from memory, so probably not exactly as said, but the delivery is actually caring, concerned. I'm guesing Clive Barker had a bit more to say on that bit than some of the rest of it. He took the lesbian hard-ass babe stereotype and softened it at the edges just enough to care when she died later in the game.
I like my women real. I'm sad to say that in today's vacuous society the made-up personality of a well-designed female games character is a lot more appealing than the pig-shit thick, Heat, More and other gossip-mag reading 'woman' that is sadly the common norm in real life right now. I'm not saying I'm in love with Alyx Vance (I think my little brother had a crush on Chun Li when he was 10 though) or Lara Croft, but I have often found myself wishing someone as well-rounded and intelligent actually existed in real life and was as easy to find. Games are, after all, an escape.
Yahtzee's comments struck a chord here because I have created a female character which I use in a lot of the table-top RPG sessions I run, and am trying to write a book involving her. As a heroine, she needs to be bad-ass on occasion, without falling into the trap of becoming a *****, or else people won't be able to warm to her and feel for her when tragedy occurs. The sentiments and comments he made here act as a sort of warning, and guideline, putting into perspective the perception of female characters as a whole.
But then, there is that female scientist from Command & Conquer: Renegade... she was cool for all the wrong reasons.
I watched GT's video review of Wet and that was enough to convince me that Rubi is possibly one of the most unlikeable characters I've ever seen in a game. I didn't even have to play the fucking game to tell she's unlikeable.
In Lara's defense she is English, they (the English) thought it was perfectly acceptable to turn a vast continent into one huge prison for a few malcontents. So stealing 5000 year old artifacts is probably perfectly acceptable to them.
Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Rubi is American, I know a few American girls who would make Rubi seem like a hoop skirt wearing tea drinker. She is just acting within her countries stereotypical gender.
I sometimes wonder if this kind of behavior is intentional or subconcious.
Gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Rubi is American, I know a few American girls who would make Rubi seem like a hoop skirt wearing tea drinker. She is just acting within her countries stereotypical gender.
I sometimes wonder if this kind of behavior is intentional or subconcious.
i loved the last two paragraphs, there where a sorry, a detailed explanation and a little back story, it was so human, i was getting tired of the one sided Ben croshaw, the badass who yelled at games and hated close to everything, it just seemed like an act more than what a genuine person would behave and think about so many different games.