What actually makes an RPG an RPG?

[Atrocious Joystick]

I'd say a CRPG is a game that tries to replicate the feel in old tabeltop games that nerds used to play before there was WoW. I think that's the only definition that has any merit of being defined as it's own genre, Dragon Age, Baldur's gate, Fallout, (Elder scrolls series?), those games. It has stats, tends to have party-based gameplay, different classes that can do different things and levels. Tends to take place in a fantasy setting but doesn't have to. Combat is usually some sort of turn based thing, not necesarrily in a visible way though.

Depth, story, 3 dimensional characters, etc (also known as all around being fleshed out) isn't exclusive to CRPGS. Bioshock, an FPS, and mass effect, squad based shooter, are widely viewed to have those qualities. And that's just an example.

 

[Treblaine]

I believe Miss Capulet said it best:

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

If the game you're playing is fantastic, does it really matter what it's labeled as? Is it any concern what the people making genres call it, as long as it's stellar?

Let's look at some of my favorite games. Kingdom Hearts 2. Mass Effect 2. BioShock. Aquaria. Batman Arkham Asylum. Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. Final Fantasy X.

All of these games are hard to nail down, genre-wise. Is BioShock an RPG with a shooter-based combat, or is it a shooter with RPG elements? Is Mass Effect 2 a Third person shooter with RPG elements, or is it an RPG with shooter combat? Is Batman: Arkham Aslyum an action game with exploratory elements, or is it an exploratory game with dynamic combat and stealth elements?

None of these can be defined by any one thing, nor do I personally care. I love all these games, even if they were classified as some hentai dating sim by mistake.

Very poetic and I'd say very true.

But I find this truth hard to swallow for terms like "RPG" are part of the language, part of how games are shaped and recommended. I really am leaning towards RPG being a dead and useless term but then I have lost so much vocabulary on describing gaming tropes.

Though I am en-heartened by this, because this shows how much our industry is seeking to break down clichés and over-used tropes with games that really do defy genres. Compare with other industries, it is so easy to say what each type is.

Still, I don't think most people can accept RPG is an obsolete term, and it's continued use stands in the way of more helpful descriptors to define what we enjoy and what we want more of.

 

[The Heavy Metal Nerd]

On the technical side, I consider a game with stats and tables to be an RPG. Stuff like Strength and Dexterity, or mechanics like skill points or levels, that sort of thing. Character attributes that can be quantified, I suppose.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Role Playing Game.

A game that focuses on the role you play in it.

That's pretty much my short answer there. Games center on different things as you go through the genres; what makes an RPG an RPG is the focus is on what you're doing - not only in terms of reaching your objective, but how you reach it and what motives are furthered in that process and what they translate into for your character personally.

You may always be playing a role, but the game doesn't always care.

 

[Treblaine]

My definition:

RPG: "Playing a character who develops as a person, interacting in complex ways with an environment over the course of a game."

Gordon Freeman, Master Chief, Doom Marine, unnamed Call of Duty voice actor who does the player injury sounds etcetera:
- Do not develop as characters past back story and/or plot
- Do not complexly interact with their environment aside from putting bullet holes in things

Mass Effect's Commander Shephard, the player's chosen Hero in Diablo II, The Hero character in Fable, the player's custom created character in other games such as Dragon Age and The Elder Scrolls:
- Develop as characters beyond a base storyline, learning skills and abilities and acquiring items that further customize the player's gaming experience.
- Are given the opportunity to explore of their own accord, and are not limited to a linear environment.
- Frequently interact with that environment in complex ways, often having their decisions affect variables that then alter the environment they are a part of.


That's my definition of RPG.

So is Grand Theft Auto 4 an RPG?

By your definition;

-Nico develops beyond back story and over-riding plot
-complexly interact with the environment with many criminal activities other than shooting and even dating, racign and exploring.
-has an opportunity to explore of their own accord with no linear limitations
-accumulate weapons, items, money and even boost health
-Their decisions affect major outcomes on who lives, who dies and how things end.

The only thing that is missing is a steady stat progression of your character with experience points.

 

[Rawne1980]

Or finding the right formations and combinations of my Orks Boyz when playing Warhammer 40K.
I loved handpainting those dudes.

Just had to quote you on that and agree that painting the figures is a great process.

Also...

My Tyranids would eat Orks for breakfast ... then ask for seconds.

I jest, i'll leave the whole Warhammer argument for another thread.

I see what you mean about the RPG argument but within computer gaming RPG has taken on a whole life of it's own and evolved.

Certain games have followed the ruleset taken on from tabletop gaming, the likes of Neverwinter Nights is a big one, but it's also grown in a way.

Games like Mass Effect do still fall under the RPG banner mainly due to you playing a role within said game.

I'm not going to fault where the RPG genre is heading for 2 reasons.

1. I do enjoy a lot of the games coming out now that do fall under RPG in their own right.

2. I still remember where RPG's began so have that nostalgia to fall back on.

Tabletop and dice games are still a big part of peoples hobbies. It just takes one look at how much Warhammer and D&D has grown over the years to know it's still a massive genre.

But it's nice to see it's branching off and trying out new avenues while still maintaining a certain element that made all dice and tabletop games big in the first place, THE STORY.

As long as a game has a story that can draw me in and make me give a shit then I won't begrudge it calling itself an RPG. It's all a matter of fun. Whereas the likes of us know where it all began a whole new generation will come in and like the genre and maybe want to learn where it all started thus brigning in fresh blood to a side of gaming we've loved for years.

As long as people enjoy what they play thats all that matters but don't get me wrong, I agree with you wholeheartedly just in my own way (if that makes any sense).

 

[Smertnik]

It's a good question. In many people's minds RPG seem to stand for the old-school D&D inspired games containing all the dice rolling and number crunching. But we're already (mostly) past that.

I'd say an RPG is a game which lets you design your character - meaning that your character isn't 100% set in stone but rather can be tweaked to your liking, be it the appearance, attitude towards his companions or general alignment.

 

[Jaloopa]

What is RPG?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RPG

 

[Treblaine]

What is RPG?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RPG

Maybe I should have put in the original post to not bother with any of these;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG

except of course the "Video Game Role Playing Game", that is what we are here for.

 

[Defense]

I just define RPG as any game with heavy emphasis on D&D elements; it could be a roleplaying game if it gives you a good amount of choice in the story, or it could be a regular game with strong emphasis on stats, usually with good customizability.

Having RPG elements counts I suppose, but that alone doesn't make the game an RPG. Team Fortress 2 has more stats to take into account than say?Mass Effect 2, but it's a multiplayer team based FPS first and foremost.

 

[UnderCoverGuest]

My definition (trimmed):
- Frequently interact with that environment in complex ways, often having their decisions affect variables that then alter the environment they are a part of.

So is Grand Theft Auto 4 an RPG?

By your definition;

-Nico develops beyond back story and over-riding plot
-complexly interact with the environment with many criminal activities other than shooting and even dating, racign and exploring.
-has an opportunity to explore of their own accord with no linear limitations
-accumulate weapons, items, money and even boost health
-Their decisions affect major outcomes on who lives, who dies and how things end.

The only thing that is missing is a steady stat progression of your character with experience points.

Didn't expect anyone to actually quote my post, heh. Anywho, I mean a different kind of complexity.

Grand Theft Auto IV does meet my general criteria for an RPG, and when you install all the modifications that I have, it certainly feels more like an RPG or hell, almost a simulation (minus the realism bit involved in most simulators). But I would consider GTA4 a "Sandbox Action" more than a "Role Playing" game, because while Niko does have an extensive storyline, and does make decisions, they aren't as complex as to be found in more RPG-like RPG.

Niko's moral choices in the story line are mainly "Kill one of these two NPCs". In my opinion, 'complex' refers to something with multiple solutions past flipping a simple coin. Rolling a six-sided dice is far more complex than a two-sided coin after all.

Mass Effect often gives you five choices at the max, though they essentially boil down to two or three outcomes, there is an illusion of complex decisions. And even if you may get the same result (someone likes you or hates you by the end of the conversation; thus a two sided coin), the game still records the complex solution (instead of saying heads or tails, the game makes a note that you rolled a dice, got a number, and that number was part of a group that was either part of group a (heads) or b (tails).

Ooookay, I'm getting way too complex myself right now. To close quickly, I don't consider GTA4 an RPG because while you are given freedom, you are given freedom without consequence. Sure, you could say that the NPCs suffer consequences, but it's the player who should feel the consequences instead. And in GTA4, you only have two choices, neither of which have any flexibility. Either you kill NPC A or kill NPC B. There are two fixed conclusions depending on which choice you make. That isn't very complex, nor does it have the illusion of complexity that more recognized RPG games have.

*Also, I'm not sure of having Roman die can be considered a consequence--I thought it was a profit.

 

[Spencer Petersen]

I think its less that you are playing a role and more that you are defining your role through your play.

 

[Treblaine]

My definition (trimmed):
- Frequently interact with that environment in complex ways, often having their decisions affect variables that then alter the environment they are a part of.

So is Grand Theft Auto 4 an RPG?

By your definition;

-Nico develops beyond back story and over-riding plot
-complexly interact with the environment with many criminal activities other than shooting and even dating, racign and exploring.
-has an opportunity to explore of their own accord with no linear limitations
-accumulate weapons, items, money and even boost health
-Their decisions affect major outcomes on who lives, who dies and how things end.

The only thing that is missing is a steady stat progression of your character with experience points.

Didn't expect anyone to actually quote my post, heh. Anywho, I mean a different kind of complexity.

Grand Theft Auto IV does meet my general criteria for an RPG, and when you install all the modifications that I have, it certainly feels more like an RPG or hell, almost a simulation (minus the realism bit involved in most simulators). But I would consider GTA4 a "Sandbox Action" more than a "Role Playing" game, because while Niko does have an extensive storyline, and does make decisions, they aren't as complex as to be found in more RPG-like RPG.

Niko's moral choices in the story line are mainly "Kill one of these two NPCs". In my opinion, 'complex' refers to something with multiple solutions past flipping a simple coin. Rolling a six-sided dice is far more complex than a two-sided coin after all.

Mass Effect often gives you five choices at the max, though they essentially boil down to two or three outcomes, there is an illusion of complex decisions. And even if you may get the same result (someone likes you or hates you by the end of the conversation; thus a two sided coin), the game still records the complex solution (instead of saying heads or tails, the game makes a note that you rolled a dice, got a number, and that number was part of a group that was either part of group a (heads) or b (tails).

Ooookay, I'm getting way too complex myself right now. To close quickly, I don't consider GTA4 an RPG because while you are given freedom, you are given freedom without consequence. Sure, you could say that the NPCs suffer consequences, but it's the player who should feel the consequences instead. And in GTA4, you only have two choices, neither of which have any flexibility. Either you kill NPC A or kill NPC B. There are two fixed conclusions depending on which choice you make. That isn't very complex, nor does it have the illusion of complexity that more recognized RPG games have.

*Also, I'm not sure of having Roman die can be considered a consequence--I thought it was a profit.

Decisions being boiled down to rolling a dice or flipping a coin?

I don't like that analogy as it implies that you actually have no "choice" that you are just letting the tiny factors of change decide the outcome... rather than thinking about what you value more or less and what you think is a preferred strategy.

Why are choices considered a major point in RPGs? It's not because each choice has many options, it is that the choices have MEANING! That is they compel the player to think about all they have seen, heard and experienced by being forced to make a judgement they consider things that a passive observer (or rail-roaded player) would be more likely to overlook.

A game with no choices, you never really have to think about the events, you just swim through them and trust the game will heard you in the right direction. This isn't necessarily a problem, there are other ways to get the player to think about the world they inhabit.

Having any choice with lasting outcomes makes you think about the characters whose lives hang in the balance, not just a matter of which do you kill, but which do you save, which do you even do business with, which do you form relationships with. It also makes you think about YOUR ROLE! Is Nico a merciful person? Or is vengeance without restraint? Will you take a risk with your future enemy to serve the ideals your role would have.

You just said that Mass Effect boils down every choice into two outcomes that decides who lives and who dies. Yet when GTA4 does the same it somehow doesn't count, is this because it is decided by a gunfight rather than a conversation-tree? That's a pedantic distinction and ultimately trivial.

That is what is special about "games known as RPGs" and ALSO applies to games like GTA4.

The term "sandbox game" is applied to games like GTA4 quite pejoratively, as by all objective analysis games like Elder scrolls should be also considered sandbox. Also the open world "sandbox" is by no means a rule for RPGs as so many break them, especially jRPGs and increasingly western RPGs are extremely linear and rail-roaded.

GTA4 seems to be excluded from the RPG genre by trivial distinctions. That it doesn't follow the same tangential tropes as an RPG then it can't in any way be considered an RPG.

GTA4 is an RPG in all but name. It serves the same functions as an RPG, it has the same essential elements, sure maybe not a hardcore RPG but an RPG none the less.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I've responded to this question dozens of times in depth and, because I've got to move beds and couches shortly, this response is going to be fairly short.

While most people will say that various mechanical systems define an RPG (inventory management, player selectable skills and so forth), or that story is somehow necessary, they are generally mistaken. Others will say that any game in which you play a character would count but such a tautology is fundamentally useless.

What defines an RPG is agency. Simply put, a player must have control over their character's development and/or the narrative's outcome. The more control a player has over these things, the more likely you are to find a group of people that agree the game is an RPG. Modern Warfare, when playing the campaign, offers the player no agency whatsoever and, as such, is not an RPG at all. Online, it offers slim control over a character's development through the use of selectable perks and weapons and would qualify in the most basic definition since it offers some agency over one's character. Mass Effect and it's sequel both offered significant agency over their stories as well] as their character and would both readily qualify as an RPG.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Ah I said it somany times before but alright.
RPG, is defined with meaningful choice in all aspects of the game (combat, equipment, skills, alignment, story, conversations, exploration,...).

Very few games tackle all the areas, even fewer do them all successfully.

 

[Da_Schwartz]

Shops and items. I'm pretty sure thats what it comes down to. If you can buy Items that increase your stats. sell items, obtain currency, score loot and have to deal with number crunching of some kind..I'm pretty sure that your playing an RPG.

 

[StBishop]

An rpg is defined by choice unless you have choices that effect the story of the game it's not an RPG.

Then Army of T.W.O.: The 40[sup]th[/sup] Day is an RPG?

I'm not suggesting it is, but your definition is lacking.

That being said, you said if it doesn't have x it isn't y. This doesn't mean having x makes it y.

I don't really know where I'm going with this.

 

[Treblaine]

What defines an RPG is agency. Simply put, a player must have control over their character's development and/or the narrative's outcome. The more control a player has over these things, the more likely you are to find a group of people that agree the game is an RPG. Modern Warfare, when playing the campaign, offers the player no agency whatsoever and, as such, is not an RPG at all. Online, it offers slim control over a character's development through the use of selectable perks and weapons and would qualify in the most basic definition since it offers some agency over one's character.

Mass Effect and it's sequel both offered significant agency over their stories as well] as their character and would both readily qualify as an RPG.

So as far as online games go, COD is as close to having RPG levels of player agency as accepted RPGs like World of Warcraft, just to a slightly different extent and alternate mode of interaction. Sure there is no plot to COD but is there much plot to an MMORPG?

Isn't Call of Duty an MMORPGFPS?

A "MuMorPerGafPes"

Maybe that is the key to COD's success, it brought in RPG mechanics by the back door, without ever labelling itself as an RPG. It has all the compulsiveness of level grinding combined and BALANCED with the the visceral excitement of shooting people with automatic weapons.

So many games that are universally known as RPGs completely defy the principal of agency over your role. Most notably the Final Fantasy series and almost every single jRPG. Plenty of western RPGs are extremely INflexible in the agency over your role or even the story.

This is starting to seem like the spelling "rule" of "I before E, except after C" which is a rule that has as many exceptions as examples; for every 'Science' there is a 'ceiling'.

Shops and items. I'm pretty sure thats what it comes down to. If you can buy Items that increase your stats. sell items, obtain currency, score loot and have to deal with number crunching of some kind..I'm pretty sure that your playing an RPG.

Like Resident Evil 4

An RPG?!?

Maybe an RPG is a term for a game that has many DIFFERENT elements that happen to come together? But not all of them must be there and for it to be a "true" RPG those must be the main mechanics.

So if RE4 had dialled up the item elements a bit more and given more agency over the role of Leon... maybe that would be what tips it over.

It seems RPG is an extremely subjective and intangible term.