Didnt we used to bash the heads before cutting the throat at one point ?The point is, any animal will suffer when you slaughter it. Did I mention the chickens are awake until they get shocked? There are a lot of misconceptions about halal, mostly because people are distrustful of anything that's related to islam. It's really not as bad as you make it sound. It's just the old-fashioned way of slaughtering cattle, before electricity (plus a prayer or two, which doesn't make much difference either way for the animal).Matthew Dunn said:The electrocution method instantly kills off the brain so that the animal feels no pain when the throat is cut
Plus you have now given me another version of meat to avoid
What are you thoughts about Vegetarianism and why do you feel that way?
- Thread starter Dante DiVongola
- Start date
http://www.earthlings.com/earthlings/video-full.php
i'm not a vegetarian, and i've many friends who are, but this film made me really think about my stance
i don't think anyone should allow themselves to use any animal product (which is mist products) without being aware of alot of the things it highlights
i'm not a vegetarian, and i've many friends who are, but this film made me really think about my stance
i don't think anyone should allow themselves to use any animal product (which is mist products) without being aware of alot of the things it highlights
For me: It depends on the reason why you are becoming a vegetarian, I even had a bout of it myself when I was a teen because of the supposed health benefits but bacon and ham won me back as you can't beat taste. So yes, there are some seriously good reasons out there but they are rarely what the vegetarians choose this diet for. Most do it because of an emotional response which is not grounded in reality in the slightest. The person described in the opening post is one such person and I will explain my reasons for this shortly but also let me explain what I have seen with my own eyes when it comes to farming plants.
First, allow me to explain to you what factory farming is and the fact it is NOT limited to animals at all.
Crops are, by far, the most factory oriented farms out there. It is all about making the maximum yield with the lowest costs, and because of this they often take methods that are down right disgusting. This is plants we are talking about, and yes I have worked on these farms and seen all the shit they put into your plants!
Plant crops have the same conditions as battery hens but there is little to no outcry about it because 'they are not alive.' They are pumped full of chemicals designed to keep them alive in conditions they do not see in the wild. These conditions, had we been talking about animals, would quickly get a farm shut down and in many cases will actually contaminant the food you are consuming with all sorts of hormones and chemicals, exactly what vegetarians say they are trying to avoid.
Top top all this off, these farms cause massive ecological damage because of the amount of chemicals needed. By removing the practice of rotating crops, something that eliminated most of the chemical needs but would sharply decrease yields, they have put into place a system that requires constant dumping of harmful chemicals that quickly become run-off that is polluting massive amounts of waterways. This is very telling in Australia, where one of our largest fresh water rivers has become so polluted that even the farms that caused it are suffering, let alone anything that lives down stream from them.
As for the point I raised above: Due to the emotional attachment people feel for animals, often to the point that some of these veterinarians fail to even consider plants alive, there are many, MANY, laws on the books preventing the abuse that PETA likes to show. Groups like PETA and vegetarian activists will always find the few farms in violation and then try to paint the whole industry as it. As someone who grew up in farmland, I can tell you most cattle are given more then enough roaming room and allowed to live their lives right up to slaughter and then are put down humanly as possible.
Sorry I couldn't give you a link straight to the audio but go here and click on vegetarians:
http://ranting-gryphon.com/Audio/Audio.htm
My view on the matter: As sad as it is, life always consumes life to survive. One day we might ascend to a point where we do not need to sustain our bodies at the levels we do today, and in those days we might be able to break the cycle of life consuming life. Till then, if your going to make an argument that your way of killing to survive is better then my way of killing to survive then you are arguing from a self-righteous position and not one based in logic.
Also, I would like you to keep in mind there is one argument I do agree with: We eat way to much meat! The level of meat consumption, particularly red meat, is a new phenomenon that only occurred with development factory farming. Before this development, that isn't even a century old, we would consume red meat less then once a day and white meat maybe once daily. This has led to some interesting health conditions, as we are over flooding our bodies with certain nutrients in ways it doesn't know how to handle yet.
For this reason I only eat one meal of meat, and rarely is it red meat, because the only thing that did turn me vegetarian in the past was dietary needs... I learned though that that path is very poor when it comes to dietary needs and cutting meat from your diet for health concerns is over-reaction.
PS: Factory farming is not sustainable farming, for meat or plant, but the only way we can feed hundreds of millions of people in the first world. The third world, we seem to care less about feeding other humans, even in our own nations, then we do about how we slaughter animals....
First, allow me to explain to you what factory farming is and the fact it is NOT limited to animals at all.
Crops are, by far, the most factory oriented farms out there. It is all about making the maximum yield with the lowest costs, and because of this they often take methods that are down right disgusting. This is plants we are talking about, and yes I have worked on these farms and seen all the shit they put into your plants!
Plant crops have the same conditions as battery hens but there is little to no outcry about it because 'they are not alive.' They are pumped full of chemicals designed to keep them alive in conditions they do not see in the wild. These conditions, had we been talking about animals, would quickly get a farm shut down and in many cases will actually contaminant the food you are consuming with all sorts of hormones and chemicals, exactly what vegetarians say they are trying to avoid.
Top top all this off, these farms cause massive ecological damage because of the amount of chemicals needed. By removing the practice of rotating crops, something that eliminated most of the chemical needs but would sharply decrease yields, they have put into place a system that requires constant dumping of harmful chemicals that quickly become run-off that is polluting massive amounts of waterways. This is very telling in Australia, where one of our largest fresh water rivers has become so polluted that even the farms that caused it are suffering, let alone anything that lives down stream from them.
As for the point I raised above: Due to the emotional attachment people feel for animals, often to the point that some of these veterinarians fail to even consider plants alive, there are many, MANY, laws on the books preventing the abuse that PETA likes to show. Groups like PETA and vegetarian activists will always find the few farms in violation and then try to paint the whole industry as it. As someone who grew up in farmland, I can tell you most cattle are given more then enough roaming room and allowed to live their lives right up to slaughter and then are put down humanly as possible.
Sorry I couldn't give you a link straight to the audio but go here and click on vegetarians:
http://ranting-gryphon.com/Audio/Audio.htm
My view on the matter: As sad as it is, life always consumes life to survive. One day we might ascend to a point where we do not need to sustain our bodies at the levels we do today, and in those days we might be able to break the cycle of life consuming life. Till then, if your going to make an argument that your way of killing to survive is better then my way of killing to survive then you are arguing from a self-righteous position and not one based in logic.
Also, I would like you to keep in mind there is one argument I do agree with: We eat way to much meat! The level of meat consumption, particularly red meat, is a new phenomenon that only occurred with development factory farming. Before this development, that isn't even a century old, we would consume red meat less then once a day and white meat maybe once daily. This has led to some interesting health conditions, as we are over flooding our bodies with certain nutrients in ways it doesn't know how to handle yet.
For this reason I only eat one meal of meat, and rarely is it red meat, because the only thing that did turn me vegetarian in the past was dietary needs... I learned though that that path is very poor when it comes to dietary needs and cutting meat from your diet for health concerns is over-reaction.
PS: Factory farming is not sustainable farming, for meat or plant, but the only way we can feed hundreds of millions of people in the first world. The third world, we seem to care less about feeding other humans, even in our own nations, then we do about how we slaughter animals....
Im fine with it as long as people arnt self rightous twats about it
and I always found the Idea of having to take suppliments on a vegetarion/vegan diet kind of defeating the purpose of it...is it really helthyer if you have to take suppliemnts? (that is assuming you DO have to take suppliments I may be wrong)
and I always found the Idea of having to take suppliments on a vegetarion/vegan diet kind of defeating the purpose of it...is it really helthyer if you have to take suppliemnts? (that is assuming you DO have to take suppliments I may be wrong)
They are getting closer and closer to vat meat... it is not appetizing at the moment though but we might see it in the market less then 12 months from now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat
the first quote i completely agree with and the second quote, well health probems caused by over consumption that is each persons own problem. if you can't limit the amount of meat you eat and and get problems from it then you're just a dumbshit and deserve it.
Vegetarianism/Veganism is a lifestyle choice, pure and simple. Not a morality choice. Either you choose to not eat meat due to personal feelings towards animals (or animal byproducts, etc.) or you choose to eat whatever you damn well please.
There's no moral high ground here, animals eat each other (carnivores) and plants (herbivores) and both (omnivores) of which we are the third variety. Although humans still have prominent canines and sharp teeth in general which I see as a good indicator that we're carnivorous at heart, plants are just an appetizer/addon.
I don't down on vegans/vegetarians as long as they're not trying to convince me I'm wrong for eating meat, or that animals are somehow more noble than human beings and don't have the capacity for cruelty. On that last note, I have seen dogs torture cats, cats torture mice, animals fight each other for territory, food or sexual partners (which is suspiciously like human nature), so you can't tell me that animals have higher standards than humans. Hell, WE ARE animals... with shoes.
There's no moral high ground here, animals eat each other (carnivores) and plants (herbivores) and both (omnivores) of which we are the third variety. Although humans still have prominent canines and sharp teeth in general which I see as a good indicator that we're carnivorous at heart, plants are just an appetizer/addon.
I don't down on vegans/vegetarians as long as they're not trying to convince me I'm wrong for eating meat, or that animals are somehow more noble than human beings and don't have the capacity for cruelty. On that last note, I have seen dogs torture cats, cats torture mice, animals fight each other for territory, food or sexual partners (which is suspiciously like human nature), so you can't tell me that animals have higher standards than humans. Hell, WE ARE animals... with shoes.
If your vegetarian as part of a strict dietary regime and/or medical necessity then thats ok. However, if your a vegetarian just to be obtuse, then I don't understand that. I'm sure depriving yourself of necessary proteins, lipids etc. cannot be very good for your body. You could cram a load of mushroom pills down your oesophagus, but I don't think that would be healthy either.
Being a vegetarian through choice rather than necessity is highly illogical.
Being a vegetarian through choice rather than necessity is highly illogical.
If nature didn't want me to eat meat then why did it make animals tasty and humans omnivores. I also like the Army's view on vegetarianism which is 'In peacetime it is ok but when the shit hits the fan you eat what you get'.
Oh yeah... OH YEAH, I just had a mental orgasm over the news I can bring this board as you reminded me of something.TestECull said:
I worked in a sugar mill, Tully sugar, in North Queensland to be exact. This sugar mill is the 'first stage' of sugar production, so we get to see what comes in off the farms daily. The sugar bins would constantly be filled with all sorts of animals. I have personally seen thousands of rats, numerous large lizards, a few snakes... I even saw a whole wallaby being brought in with the sugar. These are animals that get caught up in the harvester and often are some have been still alive, hours later, because the wounds they sustained where life threatening but slow and painful so.
Still You know what we do with these animals?
NOTHING!
These animals are fed through the mill along side with the sugar, first going through a shredder that reduces them to fragments smaller then your pinky nail and then through a series of mill wheels that squeeze every drop of liquid from them as well as the sugar. What comes out the back end, can't be distinguished from the waste fiber (known as begass if your curious). This means the majority of the animal went through the rest of the sugar making process.
Now, realize sugar is used in nearly everything and consider your 'I don't kill' mentality, not knowing how much animal protean you have swallowed from simply putting a spoon full of sugar into your coffee.
If your argument is going to be 'I don't eat meat because it kills animals' then you will have to stop eating sugar as well. I am sure other crop farmers out there can ruin the rest of your day explaining what they personally see on produce farms. I know from first hand experience that the very production of crops kills thousands of animals each harvesting season and tens of thousands during growing, for the purpose of eliminating something that will eat said crops.
PS: Oh, if you are really curious about the amount of animal protean that ends up in sugar the answer is still zero, we are VERY good at removing just the sugar crystals from all the mud, blood and filth that gets milled along side it.
PPS: Banana's also come from the area I am in so allow me to ruin these for you personally. While they are hand harvested, one few crops that still are, they are dumped with thousands of chemicals designed to kill off a wide range of 'pests' that include many native species to Australia. Farmers will regularly kill bats, an animal we do not eat, in the thousands simply because they eat the crops and reduce yields. Any other animal that also might endanger your valuable vegetable supply lines, meaning any animals that eat the same thing as we do, are quickly exterminated to produce the levels of food we require to survive.
So even if you remove the whole argument that plants are not alive or argue that degrees of life matter... think about that for a moment. These are thousands of animals that are being slaughtered so you can enjoy your banana's.
And if you argue that pests are not of high enough life form to worry about... then I would be more then able to argue that cows are not high enough levels of life to worry about as you have opened this door. As I consider all life, regardless of development, to be sacred I can not honestly take that argument on a personal grounds but it would be a glaring hole that can be exploited and I will be more then willing to point that out.
PPPS: How high do you value the life of a wallaby (little kangaroo) because crop farmers kill those off every chance they get.
PPPPS:
Also, have you ever killed a bug or rat or some other 'pest?'
How would you be able to justify killing something for no actual gain to yourself while taking the stance that killing something else for consumption, a purpose, is wrong?
Oh, and I don't kill anything if I can help it... I go out of my way not to stand on ants for Christ sake. So if you want to play the 'morality card' I am sure mine is higher but as you see, I do not use it to base my whole arguments on.
I would also like to remind those who point out the amount of plant matter cows and the like eat: This plant matter is a waste product in the vast majority of the cases. True, there are some farms that grow crops for non-human consumption, but a lot of what goes into a cows stomach is crop that has been deemed unsuitable for our consumption. This means eliminating meat from our diet will not free up any where near the resources that vegetarians claim it will. There would be some extra farm space for human consumption food, their argument has a grain of truth, but the benefits are no where near as great as they try to claim.
I don't eat meat because my body feels healthier if I don't, no agenda, nothing to push on anyone else, no need to rely on scientific data or holistic new-age bullshit. I eat mostly raw food, nuts and seeds simply because it makes my body feel great and meat tends to get in the way of that making me feel great, and thus I carry on with it.
I don't really like the way in which animals are slaughtered for meat, but it's not about to stop on my account, or anyone else's. So I keep my mouth shut.
\o/
I don't really like the way in which animals are slaughtered for meat, but it's not about to stop on my account, or anyone else's. So I keep my mouth shut.
\o/
Boyfriend again:
Are we really having a debate about what is moral about to eat after thousands of years of human development?
During the course of human evolution there where primate relatives of ours who where basically apes. At that time we where fairly primitive ourselves, effectively apes. During that period of our development the leading cause of our evolution was meat in the form of carrion to begin with. In order to find this meat, we started to leave the trees, and once we started to consume meat we realized it was so good for ourselves. In order to catch fresher and fresher meat we had to develop tools, as we are not the best equip for killing. This all led to the development of the intelligence we have today.
Me:
Still, first world problem anyone?
Are we really having a debate about what is moral about to eat after thousands of years of human development?
During the course of human evolution there where primate relatives of ours who where basically apes. At that time we where fairly primitive ourselves, effectively apes. During that period of our development the leading cause of our evolution was meat in the form of carrion to begin with. In order to find this meat, we started to leave the trees, and once we started to consume meat we realized it was so good for ourselves. In order to catch fresher and fresher meat we had to develop tools, as we are not the best equip for killing. This all led to the development of the intelligence we have today.
Me:
Still, first world problem anyone?
Like religion.
I think it's stupid, but do it if you want to. Just don't be a pretentious twat and force it onto others.
That includes your children.
I think it's stupid, but do it if you want to. Just don't be a pretentious twat and force it onto others.
That includes your children.
All living creatures have a right to live and a right to survive. Sometimes survival means violating anothers right to live. This is our unfortunate reality... but to knowingly cause the death of another without need or necessity... is to walk the path of psychopathy.
In todays world, there is NO need for the consumption of meat, at all.
In todays world, there is NO need for the consumption of meat, at all.
Well, humans are Omnivores. We were born that way, why not be that way? Our teeth are evidence enough that it is natural for us. While I am an animal lover myself, eating meat is only natural. I've noticed that many Vegetarians only are so because they want to live healthy. Having a balanced diet with both meat and vegetables is much better for you than vegetables alone.
I, for one, tend to avoid eating red meat just for health reasons. I enjoy it on special occasions and such, but for the most part I stick to chicken and fish, its just better for you.
I, for one, tend to avoid eating red meat just for health reasons. I enjoy it on special occasions and such, but for the most part I stick to chicken and fish, its just better for you.