What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Quadocky]

They can be whatever the fuck they wanna be, just as long as they arn't racist/sexist jerkwads. If you are, I am going to be very strongly worded with you.

I am play too many god damn video games, I don't have personal problems with persecution because I don't define my entire existence around fucking video games. I am also a political savvy newshound, aspiring keyboardist and music maker. I am also an amateur writer who doesn't read books but loves to write. I love to listen to UCTV lectures and love to master the art of critical thought.

I like to go outside and walk my dog and brush the heck outta that cute coat of his.

Now I ask: Who the hell is making you feel so persecuted? What is making you feel so wronged?

 

[Doclector]

They can be whatever the fuck they wanna be, just as long as they arn't racist/sexist jerkwads. If you are, I am going to be very strongly worded with you.

I am play too many god damn video games, I don't have personal problems with persecution because I don't define my entire existence around fucking video games. I am also a political savvy newshound, aspiring keyboardist and music maker. I am also an amateur writer who doesn't read books but loves to write. I love to listen to UCTV lectures and love to master the art of critical thought.

I like to go outside and walk my dog and brush the heck outta that cute coat of his.

Now I ask: Who the hell is making you feel so persecuted? What is making you feel so wronged?

Because I see this posted everywhere. People say on the internet what they really think, what they won't say in real life. It's gaining speed and popularity. People already see me and laugh at me and make jokes about me, what would it be like if everyone had the view that most male gamers were assholes?

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

-snip-

I'll give my input on how to behave through things like this. This applies to everyone.

Step 1. Stop.
Step 2. Breathe.
Step 3. Take a look at the argument presented.
Step 4. Analyze the argument for both truth and logic.
Step 5. Either accept said argument or point out the errors.
Step 6. Raise your objections in a relaxed, non-confrontational manner.
Step 7. Wait eagerly for the response.
Step 8. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

Done. Eight steps to a fruitful and prosperous discussion if both sides adhere to such rules.

Processes like this give you the distance arguments about "privilege" and "culture" through a relatively objective scale. It gives one the freedom to see if they have a leg to stand upon. Some arguments hold weight. Some do not. Take some, but leave the others.

 

[DementedSheep]

Well honestly what sounds like you are doing is taking a whole bunch of stuff said by different people and aimed at different groups, conglomerating it into one big thing that targets you specifically and then being very paranoid about it. Criticism aimed at group as a whole aren't criticism aimed everyone in that group. Relax a little.

I try. But it honestly feels like it doesn't matter whether it's aimed at me or not when if these views become the new norm, I'll be labelled like that anyway.

Look most of this shit is storms in teacups and people talking in broad generalisations. it not about you and it really doesn't effect real life at all. Hell it hardly affects gaming.

"I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off."


To address this concern of yours in more detail.

Seriously you don't need to do this, most women aren't that scary really. Just have some common courtesy (ie don't stare at tits). Yes working on appearance dose help especially if you want a girlfriend because despite what many people seem to think women are actually attracted to mens bodies not just whether their "alpha" or "can provide" or not but it's not the be all and end all. Some are are bitches of course but ignore them and try not to attach more meaning to things than there is (I mention this because I do this and you sound like you might though I may be assuming a bit too much) because chances are what you think they are doing isn't what they are doing. Like sometimes when someone needs to go they actually need to go and its not a plot to get away from you.

"Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover."

This doesn't really happen. I don't know of anyone who has been doxxed for buying something. Occasionally you get some unlucky SOB who may be a guy or girl who turns into a meme because people can be terrible when given a image on the internet with little context. It seems to turn peoples brains off and they forget its of a person but that's very very unlikely to be you or me or anyone you or I know and even when that dose happen its more an image being used to represent something broadly. Again it not really about the person.
People aren't analysing what you are buying as you are buying it. I use to think people did that. The reason I didn't get into comics until I found digital distribution is because I thought people would judge me for it or someone would look at me, look at the fact that I'm not hugely knowledgeable about comics cause I'm only just getting into them and like them but not that much and it would add to the stereotype of "Fake geek girl whore". I also didn't use a mic in games for the same reason. I thought people would be secretly using my performance to judge all female gamers. I stopped playing a Tomb Raider game because off an off hand comment about being a lesbian even though the T & A was not why I was playing it. I never talked about anything I like unless the person I was talking to initiated it. I never even liked people looking at my music, I was that uptight about it. But now that I'm a little older and less obsessed with how people think of me I'm able take a step back and realise...people aren't actually doing this. To quote from Saga "never worry what other people think of you, because no one ever thinks of you". People are far too absorbed in their own life to be analysing every thing you do and judging you. The few that will are insignificant so fuck em.

Also if I'm say...criticising a cover or how some female character is posed I am not criticizing everyone who buys that comic. If I saw it and I'm talking about it it's probably because it's something I'm actually interested in or read. I just don't like that aspect. So why would I then assume everyone else is buying it because of the thing I take a bit of an issue with? If you don't take issue with it or hell even like it, whatever. It's usually a problem with prevalence or just disappointment because I want to like it and something its getting in the way of all the good parts for me and I feel like venting about it. It's not "OMG this exists at all, fuck you if you like it" and I don't expect everyone to care about things I do. Just don't barge into a conversation about it and be like "Shut up, feminazi" though you can say you like something the way it is and why. Also keep in mind arguments on the internet get heated at times and it tends to make people sound more extreme than they are as they try to make a point (I've done that, I think everyone dose). Again this rarely transfers over into real life.


Edited to add more stuff and because I make a ton of typos.

 

[Vigormortis]

People want white male gamers to admit that that they're sinners, repent, and accept Anita and Zoe as their Lord and Saviors.

Psh. Heathens! Blasphemers!

As a dedicated PC gamer, I bow down to only one lord and savior:

Spoiler: Praise Him!

snip

QF-fucking-T

I'd also like to add that I hate sexism and misogyny as much as anyone, and gladly stand next to my fellow feminists in fighting against such lunacy, but the moment a fellow feminist[footnote]For the record, though: While I hold many values that are shared by feminism, I tend to refer to myself as a humanist instead. (with some leanings towards transhumanism, but that's another topic for another day)[/footnote] starts spouting out nonsensical bullshit like "check your privilege", "the patriarchy", "mansplaining", etc, in a none ironic way, I just tune them out. They're just as ignorant as those they're claiming to be fighting against.

Curse them to the same deep, dank pit other sexist and/or racist bigots deserve to be sent to.

 

[Quadocky]

They can be whatever the fuck they wanna be, just as long as they arn't racist/sexist jerkwads. If you are, I am going to be very strongly worded with you.

I am play too many god damn video games, I don't have personal problems with persecution because I don't define my entire existence around fucking video games. I am also a political savvy newshound, aspiring keyboardist and music maker. I am also an amateur writer who doesn't read books but loves to write. I love to listen to UCTV lectures and love to master the art of critical thought.

I like to go outside and walk my dog and brush the heck outta that cute coat of his.

Now I ask: Who the hell is making you feel so persecuted? What is making you feel so wronged?

Because I see this posted everywhere. People say on the internet what they really think, what they won't say in real life. It's gaining speed and popularity. People already see me and laugh at me and make jokes about me, what would it be like if everyone had the view that most male gamers were assholes?

???

I can't decipher this very well.

What would it be like? People had that view for years! Its been that way for freakin' YEARS! And they weren't wrong (to an extent).

 

[Beliyal]

Well honestly what sounds like you are doing is taking a whole bunch of stuff said by different people and aimed at different groups, conglomerating it into one big thing that targets you specifically and then being very paranoid about it. Criticism aimed at group as a whole aren't criticism aimed everyone in that group. Relax a little.

I try. But it honestly feels like it doesn't matter whether it's aimed at me or not when if these views become the new norm, I'll be labelled like that anyway.

You mean, just like women are usually labelled as "fake gamers", "bitches", "sluts", "doing it for attention", "ugly" and so on? I get where you're coming from, man. I don't like flaunting my interests either because of possibility of insults, attacks and mocking that are coming from the inside of the community I try to be a part of and I also get the insults, attacks and mockery from people outside of the community who don't understand gaming. So that's double damage for me, simply for being a woman (and I'm white so even I don't get as much shit as someone who is also black or transgendered). Of course, that doesn't invalidate your pain, but if you know what being insulted feels like, one would think that you'd be on our side in our efforts to stop harassment and insults within the community (and out of it).

Now, I exaggerate a little bit. I'm lucky enough to never have received insults or harassment online. Most of the reasons are the fact that I don't use female-sounding names and I often pick a male PC in online games and I don't use voice chat with people I don't know. So basically, I hide within the community, lay low and avoid the barrage of attacks that some other people are getting (like outspoken women, LGBT community, non-white people and so on). Aside from hiding in the community itself, I also hide IRL because most people around me don't understand gaming, starting with my family. There aren't many people that know how much I play games, recently some of my friends were like "Oooh, you're a gamer! I never would have guessed, you are so different than most of them", implying that wow, I'm a decent human being and gamers are not. But when people said that, I simply calmly stated "Yeah, some people in the community are bad, but most are not", meaning I admitted that there are bad elements and that doesn't damage my personal reputation because I am not that bad element. People realized that and they don't bother me anymore. I don't get insulted when someone says "Gamers are assholes" because I know that it's a shorthand for "Some members of the gaming community are really bad and give the rest of them a bad reputation, and I hope that we can solve this problem with the help of people from that community". And I don't get insulted also because I know they are not talking about me.

So if you know that you're a decent human being and you respect others, you don't have to feel insulted. Unless someone targets you personally. If you've been the target personally for no reason at all, then I am sorry. That's bullshit. That's the kind of bullshit that people want to get rid of in order to make this community a place where people don't have to hide in fear of harassment based on their name tag. And that's, in turn, going to improve our reputation from the viewpoint of outsiders.

And when it comes to hiding your identity, I feel you. I know what that's like, but I also know that people will never react in any outrageous way in 90% of the situations you will encounter. Most of the time, they'll nod and say something like "Oh, really? Okay". Who knows, maybe there are a people around you who share your interests, but you just don't know about it. Well, unless you live in a really shitty place and everyone around is a prejudiced prick. In that case, move as far as soon as you can. Also, in regards to something from your first post:

Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover.

This is not going to happen. Don't limit your enjoyment of things based on some imaginary possible slights that happen never. By the way, from what I've seen in 4 years on Tumblr, people absolutely adore both the Guardians of the Galaxy movie and the comics, with the exception of some hardcore fans that think the movie didn't do justice to the original characters. If you need a community of GOTG lovers to talk to, I can give you at least five quality blogs where people share their love for this particular thing. But seriously. Tumblr doesn't do manhunts, especially not for someone liking a comic book, simply because that site is filled to the brim with comic book fans.

 

[Trunkage]

snip

Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.

Where do I have an unfair advantage for being a male?

Are you serious? You are more likely get a job, get paid around 20% on average for doing exactly the same thing, and far less likely to get sexually harassed in the workplace (to name a couple of things). That is the definition of privilege

 

[dragonswarrior]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

I listened, I thought about it, I looked into it, did not agree with it and moved on. And it appears to not be enough, so what now?

Well, as long as you aren't intentionally or unintentionally hurting someone, carry on.

It's that unintentional bit that's the problem though.

Also, another thing is that you can't ever stop listening. You can't ever think you already know everything or have heard all there is to hear. It's a constant never ending struggle that one can never relax on and never become arrogant about.

 

[dragonswarrior]

snip

Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.

Where do I have an unfair advantage for being a male?

Are you serious? You are more likely get a job, get paid around 20% on average for doing exactly the same thing, and far less likely to get sexually harassed in the workplace (to name a couple of things). That is the definition of privilege

And if you get divorced, which in america is just a coin flip, you're more likely to loose the kids, house, and pay child support.
And if there's a draft, guess who's going to die?
And as a male, you're vastly more likely to go to prison.
And as a male, you're vastly more likely to be subjected to violence.
As a male, you're vastly more likely to be in dangerous work, where you're likely to be injured or killed.

Why don't you check YOUR privileged?

1. this is actually a part of the patriarchy, and is something most feminists are working towards changing as well. (It's because of the stupid 'women are the only ones that can take care of babies!' oppression shit."

2. Again, there are a lot of folks working to change this, including a large number of feminists.

3. Once more, a part of the patriarchal system that assumes women can do no wrong. Another thing most feminists are working towards changing.

4. I'd need multiple sources for this because I'm pretty sure you can't prove that, and it might not be true. Additionally, as a male it's much easier to get restitution for violent crimes committed against you than it is if you're a woman.

5. Again, this is because of the patriarchal system of oppression and is something that most feminists are working towards changing. The reason, additionally, that many women do not take these jobs is because the men who have them are horrible as fuck to the women who want to do them. I wouldn't want to work at a place where I faced sexual and emotional harassment every day because of the bits I was born with.

So, have you checked your privilege yet?

 

[Trunkage]

It's not. It isn't under threat because of that. It's under threat because people keep pushing the angle that it's okay to treat male gamers like shit because some of them are assholes.

Well, that is obviously wrong of them to do, but I don't see that as any kind of threat to the industry at all.

Yes, you have the odd ranter or troll, but CoD clones, attempts to be the next WoW and shooters pretending to be survival horror still sell. As long as they do, people will keep selling them. People can say whatever they want on the net, that's not likely to change until people stop buying.

Where do I have an unfair advantage for being a male?

erttheking explained it nicely one post above, but basically, not having to deal with misogyny. You could view that as an unfair disadvantage for women instead, but that's more or less the same thing.

In my country (in 2013), rape by a stranger is done on 42% of male and 58% of females. But if you look at just partners and marriage almost 100% is done on females. So there is some very clear misconceptions around rape. Thinking its completely done to females is silly and thinking it's significantly affects male as a demographic like it affects females is just as silly. I'm pointing this out as both of you are right in a way

 

[SquidSponge]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off. Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover. For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

Give that man a coconut. Sounds like you're exactly where I was last year just before I snapped and actively rebelled against the SJW crap. I'm sick of people spouting bollocks how an entire demographic are racists/sexists/whatever based on superficial traits like race, gender (or, in this case, hobby). Turns out there's a word for that - "prejudice". But no, please, tell me more about all this "equality" and "social justice". Apparently a sense of irony is rare these days - just goes to show that knowing about a subject and understanding it are not the same thing.

One of the reasons I got into videogames was because I had to deal with bullies at school giving me shit because of what (not who) I was, ie a nerd, and my hobby was an escape from them. Since I grew up I finally managed to shake those idiots, and I've been free of them for long enough to get some self-esteem so now that gaming is no longer massively "uncool" I'm not about to kneel for a new set of bullies giving me shit about what (not who) I am, ie cis/het/white/male.

[edited]
You know that thing where the Escapist automatically collapses banned users' posts? Turns out the ignore list does the same thing. As of now I've decided any time I see an individual talking inexcusably ridiculous shite (phrases like "privilege", "patriarchy" or "rape culture" are red flags) make a note of their username and avatar - three strikes then slap 'em on the list. It irks my "free speech" instincts to no end, but frankly it's not worth the aneurism every time I see [name redacted] post something utterly fuckwitted.
[/edited]

I've not been very active here for the last year now, ever since I tried and failed to convince certain people that fabric headgear does not in fact have magical powers of conferring specific political stances onto the wearer, regardless of the aforementioned fabric's shape (ah, but stereotypes are OK as long as they're directed against the correct demographics, you see), but TBH it's only gotten worse in the intervening time (and people still don't give Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw shit about his hat. Funny, huh?). I've even seen one or two of the big names, people I formerly respected because they used to speak sense and call people out on that crap, now drink the Kool-Aid, so apparently it's infectious. So I suspect the only winning move is not to play - ie find a new forum. If you manage that, feel free to tell me via PM, because in the meantime I've had to mostly content myself with 4chan of all damn places - you'll find no relief from the ubiquitous overabundance of arseholes but at least intellectually-honest and morally-consistent arseholes are at still preferable over self-righteous, sanctimonious arseholes.

 

[DC_78]

Privilege isn't a simple binary, it's a large number of them. There are a number of privileges you don't have, but that doesn't mean that you don't have any.

There's a line that gets tossed around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?", because a black man and a white woman both have a privilege over the other, while lacking the other privilege. This, of course, overlooks the existence of black women.

Or, to look at it another way, why are games under threat by treating women more equally? Why should men like yourself be catered to, largely to the exclusion of women? That is privilege.

Again this is an incredibly middle class/upper middle class American centric view and this is from an American.

You conveniently leave out all other variables to make this lovely point which is intellectually dishonest. Games (ESPECIALLY AAA)are still primarily marketed to men because they are still the largest market share. They are the more reliable audience, with more disposable income, with known franchises so that is why men are catered to. Is that sexist? No it is economics and arguing anything else is dishonest.

Secondly who makes the argument that "games are under threat by treating women equally?" No one. The argument is usually that games are threatening/unwelcoming to women because certain folks have put forward a sex negative critic instead of a sex positive one. Which is also often done in feminist critique of pornography by the way.

Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.

Only if you subscribe to feminist thought. Which many people do not. You have literally just morally admonished something like 80% of the American public who do not agree with your morality. It is nice that you believe what you do and for most subjects I bet we could agree. That said in the critic of video games these arguments have become just as divisive as the anti violence movement.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I don't get why these constantly get brought up. Is there a prevailing belief that Feminists don't support any of this?

And if you get divorced, which in america is just a coin flip, you're more likely to loose the kids, house, and pay child support.

Women get pigeonholed into the role of a caregiver, this isn't a good thing for them either. Your gender certainly does not reflect your ability to support children.

The paying child support bit might require some investigation. To my understanding you have far more women being stay at home moms than men being stay at home dads. The stay at home parent who hasn't been investing their time into building their career certainly requires more child support than the person who has.

While this certainly has the potential to be abused, it's hardly men being oppressed by women. It comes down to gender stereotypes that are in dire need of revision.

And if there's a draft, guess who's going to die?

Women are seen as weak, defenseless and in need of being protected. Do you send your tough manly men to war or the weak ones you're supposed to be protecting (being pooled in with children in regards to the need to be protected).

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to go to prison.

No sure what this is supposed to be implying. Are women putting men into prison? Are women being seen as more sympathetic to men and thus courts are less likely to convict them? Or is this something to do with doing things that would put you into prison?

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to be subjected to violence.

Once again, this ties into the fact that hitting a women is bad because they're weak and defenseless. However, I think it'd be better to campaign for violence not being okay at all as opposed to "You should hit more women, just to be fair".

As a male, you're vastly more likely to be in dangerous work, where you're likely to be injured or killed.

Same deal, women are supposed to be protected, you don't put them in dangerous work.

I've never seen any self proclaimed feminist on the Escapist arguing that women being protected by society is a good thing