What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Beliyal]

Well honestly what sounds like you are doing is taking a whole bunch of stuff said by different people and aimed at different groups, conglomerating it into one big thing that targets you specifically and then being very paranoid about it. Criticism aimed at group as a whole aren't criticism aimed everyone in that group. Relax a little.

I try. But it honestly feels like it doesn't matter whether it's aimed at me or not when if these views become the new norm, I'll be labelled like that anyway.

You mean, just like women are usually labelled as "fake gamers", "bitches", "sluts", "doing it for attention", "ugly" and so on? I get where you're coming from, man. I don't like flaunting my interests either because of possibility of insults, attacks and mocking that are coming from the inside of the community I try to be a part of and I also get the insults, attacks and mockery from people outside of the community who don't understand gaming. So that's double damage for me, simply for being a woman (and I'm white so even I don't get as much shit as someone who is also black or transgendered). Of course, that doesn't invalidate your pain, but if you know what being insulted feels like, one would think that you'd be on our side in our efforts to stop harassment and insults within the community (and out of it).

Now, I exaggerate a little bit. I'm lucky enough to never have received insults or harassment online. Most of the reasons are the fact that I don't use female-sounding names and I often pick a male PC in online games and I don't use voice chat with people I don't know. So basically, I hide within the community, lay low and avoid the barrage of attacks that some other people are getting (like outspoken women, LGBT community, non-white people and so on). Aside from hiding in the community itself, I also hide IRL because most people around me don't understand gaming, starting with my family. There aren't many people that know how much I play games, recently some of my friends were like "Oooh, you're a gamer! I never would have guessed, you are so different than most of them", implying that wow, I'm a decent human being and gamers are not. But when people said that, I simply calmly stated "Yeah, some people in the community are bad, but most are not", meaning I admitted that there are bad elements and that doesn't damage my personal reputation because I am not that bad element. People realized that and they don't bother me anymore. I don't get insulted when someone says "Gamers are assholes" because I know that it's a shorthand for "Some members of the gaming community are really bad and give the rest of them a bad reputation, and I hope that we can solve this problem with the help of people from that community". And I don't get insulted also because I know they are not talking about me.

So if you know that you're a decent human being and you respect others, you don't have to feel insulted. Unless someone targets you personally. If you've been the target personally for no reason at all, then I am sorry. That's bullshit. That's the kind of bullshit that people want to get rid of in order to make this community a place where people don't have to hide in fear of harassment based on their name tag. And that's, in turn, going to improve our reputation from the viewpoint of outsiders.

And when it comes to hiding your identity, I feel you. I know what that's like, but I also know that people will never react in any outrageous way in 90% of the situations you will encounter. Most of the time, they'll nod and say something like "Oh, really? Okay". Who knows, maybe there are a people around you who share your interests, but you just don't know about it. Well, unless you live in a really shitty place and everyone around is a prejudiced prick. In that case, move as far as soon as you can. Also, in regards to something from your first post:

Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover.

This is not going to happen. Don't limit your enjoyment of things based on some imaginary possible slights that happen never. By the way, from what I've seen in 4 years on Tumblr, people absolutely adore both the Guardians of the Galaxy movie and the comics, with the exception of some hardcore fans that think the movie didn't do justice to the original characters. If you need a community of GOTG lovers to talk to, I can give you at least five quality blogs where people share their love for this particular thing. But seriously. Tumblr doesn't do manhunts, especially not for someone liking a comic book, simply because that site is filled to the brim with comic book fans.

 

[Trunkage]

snip

Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.

Where do I have an unfair advantage for being a male?

Are you serious? You are more likely get a job, get paid around 20% on average for doing exactly the same thing, and far less likely to get sexually harassed in the workplace (to name a couple of things). That is the definition of privilege

 

[dragonswarrior]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

I listened, I thought about it, I looked into it, did not agree with it and moved on. And it appears to not be enough, so what now?

Well, as long as you aren't intentionally or unintentionally hurting someone, carry on.

It's that unintentional bit that's the problem though.

Also, another thing is that you can't ever stop listening. You can't ever think you already know everything or have heard all there is to hear. It's a constant never ending struggle that one can never relax on and never become arrogant about.

 

[dragonswarrior]

snip

Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.

Where do I have an unfair advantage for being a male?

Are you serious? You are more likely get a job, get paid around 20% on average for doing exactly the same thing, and far less likely to get sexually harassed in the workplace (to name a couple of things). That is the definition of privilege

And if you get divorced, which in america is just a coin flip, you're more likely to loose the kids, house, and pay child support.
And if there's a draft, guess who's going to die?
And as a male, you're vastly more likely to go to prison.
And as a male, you're vastly more likely to be subjected to violence.
As a male, you're vastly more likely to be in dangerous work, where you're likely to be injured or killed.

Why don't you check YOUR privileged?

1. this is actually a part of the patriarchy, and is something most feminists are working towards changing as well. (It's because of the stupid 'women are the only ones that can take care of babies!' oppression shit."

2. Again, there are a lot of folks working to change this, including a large number of feminists.

3. Once more, a part of the patriarchal system that assumes women can do no wrong. Another thing most feminists are working towards changing.

4. I'd need multiple sources for this because I'm pretty sure you can't prove that, and it might not be true. Additionally, as a male it's much easier to get restitution for violent crimes committed against you than it is if you're a woman.

5. Again, this is because of the patriarchal system of oppression and is something that most feminists are working towards changing. The reason, additionally, that many women do not take these jobs is because the men who have them are horrible as fuck to the women who want to do them. I wouldn't want to work at a place where I faced sexual and emotional harassment every day because of the bits I was born with.

So, have you checked your privilege yet?

 

[Trunkage]

It's not. It isn't under threat because of that. It's under threat because people keep pushing the angle that it's okay to treat male gamers like shit because some of them are assholes.

Well, that is obviously wrong of them to do, but I don't see that as any kind of threat to the industry at all.

Yes, you have the odd ranter or troll, but CoD clones, attempts to be the next WoW and shooters pretending to be survival horror still sell. As long as they do, people will keep selling them. People can say whatever they want on the net, that's not likely to change until people stop buying.

Where do I have an unfair advantage for being a male?

erttheking explained it nicely one post above, but basically, not having to deal with misogyny. You could view that as an unfair disadvantage for women instead, but that's more or less the same thing.

In my country (in 2013), rape by a stranger is done on 42% of male and 58% of females. But if you look at just partners and marriage almost 100% is done on females. So there is some very clear misconceptions around rape. Thinking its completely done to females is silly and thinking it's significantly affects male as a demographic like it affects females is just as silly. I'm pointing this out as both of you are right in a way

 

[SquidSponge]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off. Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover. For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

Give that man a coconut. Sounds like you're exactly where I was last year just before I snapped and actively rebelled against the SJW crap. I'm sick of people spouting bollocks how an entire demographic are racists/sexists/whatever based on superficial traits like race, gender (or, in this case, hobby). Turns out there's a word for that - "prejudice". But no, please, tell me more about all this "equality" and "social justice". Apparently a sense of irony is rare these days - just goes to show that knowing about a subject and understanding it are not the same thing.

One of the reasons I got into videogames was because I had to deal with bullies at school giving me shit because of what (not who) I was, ie a nerd, and my hobby was an escape from them. Since I grew up I finally managed to shake those idiots, and I've been free of them for long enough to get some self-esteem so now that gaming is no longer massively "uncool" I'm not about to kneel for a new set of bullies giving me shit about what (not who) I am, ie cis/het/white/male.

[edited]
You know that thing where the Escapist automatically collapses banned users' posts? Turns out the ignore list does the same thing. As of now I've decided any time I see an individual talking inexcusably ridiculous shite (phrases like "privilege", "patriarchy" or "rape culture" are red flags) make a note of their username and avatar - three strikes then slap 'em on the list. It irks my "free speech" instincts to no end, but frankly it's not worth the aneurism every time I see [name redacted] post something utterly fuckwitted.
[/edited]

I've not been very active here for the last year now, ever since I tried and failed to convince certain people that fabric headgear does not in fact have magical powers of conferring specific political stances onto the wearer, regardless of the aforementioned fabric's shape (ah, but stereotypes are OK as long as they're directed against the correct demographics, you see), but TBH it's only gotten worse in the intervening time (and people still don't give Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw shit about his hat. Funny, huh?). I've even seen one or two of the big names, people I formerly respected because they used to speak sense and call people out on that crap, now drink the Kool-Aid, so apparently it's infectious. So I suspect the only winning move is not to play - ie find a new forum. If you manage that, feel free to tell me via PM, because in the meantime I've had to mostly content myself with 4chan of all damn places - you'll find no relief from the ubiquitous overabundance of arseholes but at least intellectually-honest and morally-consistent arseholes are at still preferable over self-righteous, sanctimonious arseholes.

 

[DC_78]

Privilege isn't a simple binary, it's a large number of them. There are a number of privileges you don't have, but that doesn't mean that you don't have any.

There's a line that gets tossed around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?", because a black man and a white woman both have a privilege over the other, while lacking the other privilege. This, of course, overlooks the existence of black women.

Or, to look at it another way, why are games under threat by treating women more equally? Why should men like yourself be catered to, largely to the exclusion of women? That is privilege.

Again this is an incredibly middle class/upper middle class American centric view and this is from an American.

You conveniently leave out all other variables to make this lovely point which is intellectually dishonest. Games (ESPECIALLY AAA)are still primarily marketed to men because they are still the largest market share. They are the more reliable audience, with more disposable income, with known franchises so that is why men are catered to. Is that sexist? No it is economics and arguing anything else is dishonest.

Secondly who makes the argument that "games are under threat by treating women equally?" No one. The argument is usually that games are threatening/unwelcoming to women because certain folks have put forward a sex negative critic instead of a sex positive one. Which is also often done in feminist critique of pornography by the way.

Of course not. It gives you an unfair advantage though, which is what privilege is.

Only if you subscribe to feminist thought. Which many people do not. You have literally just morally admonished something like 80% of the American public who do not agree with your morality. It is nice that you believe what you do and for most subjects I bet we could agree. That said in the critic of video games these arguments have become just as divisive as the anti violence movement.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I don't get why these constantly get brought up. Is there a prevailing belief that Feminists don't support any of this?

And if you get divorced, which in america is just a coin flip, you're more likely to loose the kids, house, and pay child support.

Women get pigeonholed into the role of a caregiver, this isn't a good thing for them either. Your gender certainly does not reflect your ability to support children.

The paying child support bit might require some investigation. To my understanding you have far more women being stay at home moms than men being stay at home dads. The stay at home parent who hasn't been investing their time into building their career certainly requires more child support than the person who has.

While this certainly has the potential to be abused, it's hardly men being oppressed by women. It comes down to gender stereotypes that are in dire need of revision.

And if there's a draft, guess who's going to die?

Women are seen as weak, defenseless and in need of being protected. Do you send your tough manly men to war or the weak ones you're supposed to be protecting (being pooled in with children in regards to the need to be protected).

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to go to prison.

No sure what this is supposed to be implying. Are women putting men into prison? Are women being seen as more sympathetic to men and thus courts are less likely to convict them? Or is this something to do with doing things that would put you into prison?

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to be subjected to violence.

Once again, this ties into the fact that hitting a women is bad because they're weak and defenseless. However, I think it'd be better to campaign for violence not being okay at all as opposed to "You should hit more women, just to be fair".

As a male, you're vastly more likely to be in dangerous work, where you're likely to be injured or killed.

Same deal, women are supposed to be protected, you don't put them in dangerous work.

I've never seen any self proclaimed feminist on the Escapist arguing that women being protected by society is a good thing

 

[Erttheking]

I don't get why these constantly get brought up. Is there a prevailing belief that Feminists don't support any of this?

And if you get divorced, which in america is just a coin flip, you're more likely to loose the kids, house, and pay child support.

Women get pigeonholed into the role of a caregiver, this isn't a good thing for them either. Your gender certainly does not reflect your ability to support children.

The paying child support bit might require some investigation. To my understanding you have far more women being stay at home moms than men being stay at home dads. The stay at home parent who hasn't been investing their time into building their career certainly requires more child support than the person who has.

While this certainly has the potential to be abused, it's hardly men being oppressed by women. It comes down to gender stereotypes that are in dire need of revision.

And if there's a draft, guess who's going to die?

Women are seen as weak, defenseless and in need of being protected. Do you send your tough manly men to war or the weak ones you're supposed to be protecting (being pooled in with children in regards to the need to be protected).

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to go to prison.

No sure what this is supposed to be implying. Are women putting men into prison? Are women being seen as more sympathetic to men and thus courts are less likely to convict them? Or is this something to do with doing things that would put you into prison?

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to be subjected to violence.

Once again, this ties into the fact that hitting a women is bad because they're weak and defenseless. However, I think it'd be better to campaign for violence not being okay at all as opposed to "You should hit more women, just to be fair".

As a male, you're vastly more likely to be in dangerous work, where you're likely to be injured or killed.

Same deal, women are supposed to be protected, you don't put them in dangerous work.

I've never seen any self proclaimed feminist on the Escapist arguing that women being protected by society is a good thing

And you don't see people arguing that the pay gap is a good thing.

Point is, everyone has problems. Nobody should be dismissed based on "privilege". But that's what a lot of people seem to want to do. They say you're a privileged white/cis/stright/male and as such you have no right to an opinion. And i think those people need to fuck right off.

There's a lot of people, myself included, who turned to games because it was the one place you could be free of this kind of abuse, and i for one am not going to just let myself be pushed around by some sadistic, prejudicial fucks who feel i shouldn't be who i am, or that i shouldn't enjoy what i enjoy! It's not the first time gamer culture has come under attack, and it certainly won't be the last. Political correctness has always been an active threat to video games, and that hasn't and won't ever change. That doesn't mean i don't want to see more variety in games, i'd like to see more actually, every time an interesting and innovative idea gets turned into some samey brown military shooter i roll my eyes and it makes me depressed, but you can't come in to someone's hobby and tell them they have no right to it. We've worked to hard to establish a space and a culture for ourselves to let anyone just waltz in and tell us it's wrong for us to be who we are or enjoy the things we enjoy.

People who do the "no right to an opinion thing" do need to fuck off, but I feel like a lot of people let those people give them an excuse to ignore the fact that there are real problems in the world and in the way we treat non heterosexual white males. Men get paid more, white men are less likely to be shot by the police, men are less likely to get harassed, and transexuals, good god, don't get me started on the crap they have to deal with.

And I'm gonna say this right now. Gaming is NOT under attack, it is NOT being threatened, and there is no ENEMY! And here's the thing, "Letting people waltz in" You're implying that these people only entered recently and are trying to change established norms. My friend has been gaming since she was a little kid and she's upset at a lot of the things that go on in gaming. Plenty of feminists are. You can't just wave them away as someone who marched in out of nowhere and demanded that everything be about them. They were always there. And you can't argue that gaming should be about finding comfort and we should ignore people who criticize it when they're trying to find comfort in gaming and the common trends make them uncomfortable. I'm a feminist, and I don't want to change who you are or take away your male empowerment fantasises! I just don't want to have slurs thrown at me for holding a mindset, have that mindset respected, and see more variety in gaming. I want EVERYONE to be able to enjoy games the way I can.

There is no threat dude. You can relax. The people who have shown any intolerant crap towards you are assholes and frankly we'd be better off without them.

 

[DC_78]

And you don't see people arguing that the pay gap is a good thing.

Point is, everyone has problems. Nobody should be dismissed based on "privilege". But that's what a lot of people seem to want to do. They say you're a privileged white/cis/stright/male and as such you have no right to an opinion. And i think those people need to fuck right off.

There's a lot of people, myself included, who turned to games because it was the one place you could be free of this kind of abuse, and i for one am not going to just let myself be pushed around by some sadistic, prejudicial fucks who feel i shouldn't be who i am, or that i shouldn't enjoy what i enjoy! It's not the first time gamer culture has come under attack, and it certainly won't be the last. Political correctness has always been an active threat to video games, and that hasn't and won't ever change. That doesn't mean i don't want to see more variety in games, i'd like to see more actually, every time an interesting and innovative idea gets turned into some samey brown military shooter i roll my eyes and it makes me depressed, but you can't come in to someone's hobby and tell them they have no right to it. We've worked to hard to establish a space and a culture for ourselves to let anyone just waltz in and tell us it's wrong for us to be who we are or enjoy the things we enjoy.

Here is where I believe you have made an error in the last paragraph Insaninater, you have fallen into the prejudice that all of these folks trying to change games are new to the hobby.

I bet most are not, some may have been gamers for years. Maybe this lack of representation/sexism, as they see it, has bothered them and now they are speaking about it. As is their right just as it is everyone's right to listen, argue for/against or ignore their complaint. This is the part that bothers me, the thought process that because they see their complaint as "right" it is to be taken as gospel and the industry and culture need to change. Now. It strikes me as narcissistic in the extreme.

In history there has always been those that push forward new ideas and ideology into a culture. They are always labeled the progressives. Those that resist the change have always been labeled the conservatives. In this case gaming media and gaming progressives seem to think that because they think they are morally right that everyone that disagrees is morally wrong. Which is bull.

 

[DementedSheep]

The only jobs that only a man can work are the extremely hard and dangerous ones, like lumberjacks and or jobs in the heavy industries. I don't hear too many women complaining about not being allowed to be coal miners. All other jobs are equally open for men and women.

I can't be bothered addressing the rest right now but this is bullshit.

My first job I got told a womans place was in packaging regardless of whether they had previous experience and a licence for using a machinery. Gues who gets higher pay? My university welcomes it's women onto campus by telling them to sit at the back and be silent until it's time to sing the university anthem because a women speaking in a sacred place is disrespectful (but you can still be the entertainment). Meanwhile the men get to come up to the front to be personally welcomed, get their hand shaken and have speeches. Of course they didn't rectify this afterwards when it didn't have the bullshity religious tradition excuse either. My lecturers tell me I shouldn't expect to get management positions because even in careers that are mostly women you get men in charge and in high paid potions. Why? because apparently the boss needs to separate from all the "bitchy womanly gossip" (naturally the reverse is not true. You don't hire a woman to be in charge when the workers are mostly men to be separate from their fights) and "men get shit done". Men are still seen as being more skilled by default. Oh but at least I do have more of a chance than those Indian and Polynesian girls since I won't be involved in all those "race feuds" because if your going to make up excuses for sexism you might as well throw in some racism. Then there is the oh so lovely and depressing common sentiment of "I'M totally not sexist but other people are so women shouldn't be in charge or CEO because they won't be taken seriously" which even gets touted by my own fucking family. We had a business advisor advocating not promoting woman because they aren't worth the effort because they just get pregnant and leave and to pay them less because of periods. My brother has constantly managed to land jobs that don't require extensive education much easier than me since he has about twice as many options because you don't get hired for manual labour as a woman. Yes I would actually like to be able to take those jobs.
Non of the people saying this shit think of themselves as sexist. They just say it's "logical"

 

[Erttheking]

I don't get why these constantly get brought up. Is there a prevailing belief that Feminists don't support any of this?

And if you get divorced, which in america is just a coin flip, you're more likely to loose the kids, house, and pay child support.

Women get pigeonholed into the role of a caregiver, this isn't a good thing for them either. Your gender certainly does not reflect your ability to support children.

The paying child support bit might require some investigation. To my understanding you have far more women being stay at home moms than men being stay at home dads. The stay at home parent who hasn't been investing their time into building their career certainly requires more child support than the person who has.

While this certainly has the potential to be abused, it's hardly men being oppressed by women. It comes down to gender stereotypes that are in dire need of revision.

And if there's a draft, guess who's going to die?

Women are seen as weak, defenseless and in need of being protected. Do you send your tough manly men to war or the weak ones you're supposed to be protecting (being pooled in with children in regards to the need to be protected).

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to go to prison.

No sure what this is supposed to be implying. Are women putting men into prison? Are women being seen as more sympathetic to men and thus courts are less likely to convict them? Or is this something to do with doing things that would put you into prison?

And as a male, you're vastly more likely to be subjected to violence.

Once again, this ties into the fact that hitting a women is bad because they're weak and defenseless. However, I think it'd be better to campaign for violence not being okay at all as opposed to "You should hit more women, just to be fair".

As a male, you're vastly more likely to be in dangerous work, where you're likely to be injured or killed.

Same deal, women are supposed to be protected, you don't put them in dangerous work.

I've never seen any self proclaimed feminist on the Escapist arguing that women being protected by society is a good thing

And you don't see people arguing that the pay gap is a good thing.

Point is, everyone has problems. Nobody should be dismissed based on "privilege". But that's what a lot of people seem to want to do. They say you're a privileged white/cis/stright/male and as such you have no right to an opinion. And i think those people need to fuck right off.

There's a lot of people, myself included, who turned to games because it was the one place you could be free of this kind of abuse, and i for one am not going to just let myself be pushed around by some sadistic, prejudicial fucks who feel i shouldn't be who i am, or that i shouldn't enjoy what i enjoy! It's not the first time gamer culture has come under attack, and it certainly won't be the last. Political correctness has always been an active threat to video games, and that hasn't and won't ever change. That doesn't mean i don't want to see more variety in games, i'd like to see more actually, every time an interesting and innovative idea gets turned into some samey brown military shooter i roll my eyes and it makes me depressed, but you can't come in to someone's hobby and tell them they have no right to it. We've worked to hard to establish a space and a culture for ourselves to let anyone just waltz in and tell us it's wrong for us to be who we are or enjoy the things we enjoy.

People who do the "no right to an opinion thing" do need to fuck off, but I feel like a lot of people let those people give them an excuse to ignore the fact that there are real problems in the world and in the way we treat non heterosexual white males. Men get paid more, white men are less likely to be shot by the police, men are less likely to get harassed, and transexuals, good god, don't get me started on the crap they have to deal with.

And I'm gonna say this right now. Gaming is NOT under attack, it is NOT being threatened, and there is no ENEMY! And here's the thing, "Letting people waltz in" You're implying that these people only entered recently and are trying to change established norms. My friend has been gaming since she was a little kid and she's upset at a lot of the things that go on in gaming. Plenty of feminists are. You can't just wave them away as someone who marched in out of nowhere and demanded that everything be about them. They were always there. And you can't argue that gaming should be about finding comfort and we should ignore people who criticize it when they're trying to find comfort in gaming and the common trends make them uncomfortable. I'm a feminist, and I don't want to change who you are or take away your male empowerment fantasises! I just don't want to have slurs thrown at me for holding a mindset, have that mindset respected, and see more variety in gaming. I want EVERYONE to be able to enjoy games the way I can.

There is no threat dude. You can relax. The people who have shown any intolerant crap towards you are assholes and frankly we'd be better off without them.

If there was no threat, we wouldn't be seeing so many articles about how "gamers are dead", would we? Nor would the awful stereotypes about gamers still be socially acceptable. As long as "the big bang theory" is still running, there's still a threat.

And wow, if you think women are better off than men when it comes to dealing with the police, you're sorely misinformed.

If there was a threat, we'd be seeing a heck of a lot more than just a few articles that seem to have already gone out of fashion. We'd have people censoring games, pulling them off shelves, gamestops set on fire. None of that has happened. We got a few jackasses writing articles, hardly a threat. And what does the popular stereotype of nerd have to do with anything? That's like saying that there's a threat against sports because of the common stereotypes of portraying them as bullies.

I meant to compare how white men and black men have to deal with the police. I apologize

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

This turned into a real privilege, "cis", what-about-me, guilt-trip real quick didn't it? I'm just gonna go ahead and leave a response to the topic question.

If you're talking about sites like Kotaku, Jezebel, Tumblr, etc, then they want you to be self-effacing, self-degrading, serve women, give up your job so a glorious oppressed "poc" can take your job, hire a "poc" or "non-hetero-normative" (<- this means "not straight" btw) person over someone who isn't regardless of credentials so you "help make things more diverse", always agree with the opinions of minorities you're not a part of, and of women, regardless if what they're saying is fucking stupid, all sorts of insidious shit masquerading as "Social Justice".

You can either try to please them like some slave with Stockholm Syndrome, or you can have some bloody dignity, self-respect, and think for your god damn self.

Edit: These are of course the more extreme views, though they do come to the forefront a fair bit. Not everyone who thinks gaming has a problem necessarily thinks like this.

 

[beastro]

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit.

Okay, I bite for once.

Equality is about bringing people up to the same level, not down.

But it's not as fun and cathartic to lift people up when you could walk all over them like both extremes are doing.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off. Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover. For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

What is expected of male gamers, or any gamer for that matter? To not pretend that being a gamer is any different than anything else you do. There is no " real life vs online life" there is only one life with it's good and bad all mixed together. I don't think anyone is asking anyone to give two shits about Zoe Quinn, and especially do not use her as a poster child representing women in gaming since of course women in gaming are as diverse as men are in gaming.

Many times many gamers do make it hard on female gamers, both male and female gamers have made it hard on other female gamers. The whole " don't tell people you are a girl" or "it doesn't matter if you are a girl" and " there are no girls on the internet" BS doesn't help matters, that makes it worse, not better. Girls should be able to be proud they are girls, it is okay for them to be different, being " girly" isn't bad, it is just different than being masculine. It is the idea that being girly is somehow bad that is part of the issue and that some assume that if one mentions they are a girl they are " doing it for attention". they are no more doing it for " attention" than a guy mentioning they are a guy. IT is who they are, why should they be afraid or withhold that they are a girl and they like girly things and games? You have girls telling other girls to " not wear ponytails or be girly", who do they think they are to try to tell another girl that she should be less of a girl because it annoys her? Girls are just as much responsible for creating this toxic environment than the guys are when they are against girls for being " girly" simply because they are not.

Girls should not be confronted with " Titties or GTFO", "Blow me Beautiful", " make me a sammich" or "I am fapping to your voice" just for trying to play a game they enjoy. Although much of what is said to girls when they come into games is far worse than that, simply for being a girl and wanting to play a game. That I think is the " toxic atmosphere" that needs some work more than anything else. Yea it would be much easier on everyone involved if they just treated each other with respect. From what you said about people stereotyping you for being an overweight gamer, I see that as also being wrong, just as wrong for stereotyping a girl and mistreating her because she likes pink and plays games. It is bullying plain and simple, whether it is males and females bullying girls for being girly or males and females bullying a guy for being overweight and playing games, it is the same thing and it is terribly wrong to do to someone.

Honestly, the only way I see improving it is for people to just step up and not do it, and speak up when they see it being done. if people are acting like douchebags, call them on it and not support it. Of course they will call you a SJW or a " white knight", but honestly, if they are calling you a SJW in the first place, do you really want to associate with those people in the first place? These are the same douchebags that would mock you for being an overweight gamer, just they are picking on someone else this time. It is a matter of people finding it acceptable and tolerating it, often people tolerate it when it isn't aimed at them, as long as it is aimed at someone else, but only become pissed when it affects them. If we just see it for what it is no matter who they are doing it to, maybe it will change it from happening in the first place. It is ignorant to go around treating people like shit, so of course I wouldn't want to endorse that or associate myself with it.

 

[Erttheking]

This turned into a real privilege, "cis", what-about-me, guilt-trip real quick didn't it? I'm just gonna go ahead and leave a response to the topic question.

If you're talking about sites like Kotaku, Jezebel, Tumblr, etc, then they want you to be self-effacing, self-degrading, serve women, give up your job so a glorious oppressed "poc" can take your job, hire a "poc" or "non-hetero-normative" (<- this means "not straight" btw) person over someone who isn't regardless of credentials so you "help make things more diverse", always agree with the opinions of minorities you're not a part of, and of women, regardless if what they're saying is fucking stupid, all sorts of insidious shit masquerading as "Social Justice".

You can either try to please them like some slave with Stockholm Syndrome, or you can have some bloody dignity, self-respect, and think for your god damn self.

You are misrepresenting the other side of the argument so much it isn't even funny. I don't care how much you dislike the other side, you're just blatantly making stuff up here.

I'm a slave with Stockholm Syndrome? That's why I support feminism? Nowhere close buddy. Not even in the same galaxy.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

This turned into a real privilege, "cis", what-about-me, guilt-trip real quick didn't it? I'm just gonna go ahead and leave a response to the topic question.

If you're talking about sites like Kotaku, Jezebel, Tumblr, etc, then they want you to be self-effacing, self-degrading, serve women, give up your job so a glorious oppressed "poc" can take your job, hire a "poc" or "non-hetero-normative" (<- this means "not straight" btw) person over someone who isn't regardless of credentials so you "help make things more diverse", always agree with the opinions of minorities you're not a part of, and of women, regardless if what they're saying is fucking stupid, all sorts of insidious shit masquerading as "Social Justice".

You can either try to please them like some slave with Stockholm Syndrome, or you can have some bloody dignity, self-respect, and think for your god damn self.

You are misrepresenting the other side of the argument so much it isn't even funny. I don't care how much dislike the other side, you're just blatantly making stuff up here.

I've probably just seen too much stuff from Tumblr. I was about to put an edit in to say these are the are the more extreme views that sometimes come to the surface (and they do sometimes in Kotaku and Jezebel which were the kinds of sites I was talking about).

I'm interested in knowing your representation of the argument. Maybe I've just been wading through the shit to much, if you've already stated what it is, just point me to it.

 

[DC_78]

If there was a threat, we'd be seeing a heck of a lot more than just a few articles that seem to have already gone out of fashion. We'd have people censoring games, pulling them off shelves, gamestops set on fire. None of that has happened. We got a few jackasses writing articles, hardly a threat. And what does the popular stereotype of nerd have to do with anything? That's like saying that there's a threat against sports because of the common stereotypes of portraying them as bullies.

I meant to compare how white men and black men have to deal with the police. I apologize

Ert I believe you just committed a fallacy of an Appeal to Ridicule.

The "threat" as Insaninator has failed to illicit is that because the gaming press is dominated by social justice bards, or whatever, it has begun to spin a narrative to speed change into the industry and culture. IE: The popular and influential gaming press is dominated by progressives. Because of this they can influence reviews, bring pressure on developers, and push topics that are best able to promote the change they want.

Gamergate is the conservative response to this change, it is neither good nor bad. And definetly not entirely made up of one homogenous ethnic/gender/economic/political block of gamers.

 

[Beliyal]

...but you can't come in to someone's hobby and tell them they have no right to it. We've worked to hard to establish a space and a culture for ourselves to let anyone just waltz in and tell us it's wrong for us to be who we are or enjoy the things we enjoy.

I bolded the parts that, friendly advice, you should definitely avoid saying if you want people to see you in a positive way. Because you are implying that women came into your (!) hobby to attack you, that you own gaming and that it is your duty to profile and allow or deny people to enter gaming.

Gaming is not your hobby. It's everyone's. We've all been here for a long time.

You're not the gatekeeper that can say who is allowed in and who isn't, or who was here first.

Women didn't "waltz in" and they are not saying that it's wrong to enjoy gaming (because a) women are not a hive-mind b) women are playing games too and enjoying them, so they can't say it's wrong to do so, otherwise we wouldn't be playing c) when criticizing an aspect of some media, people criticize that aspect of that media, and not people who enjoy it). I can say that a NewGame(TM) has sexism against women while in the same time, I can enjoy playing that game and I can participate in the fandom of that game where I'll discuss my undying love for it with other people and still be able to point out "but those few parts are a bit sexist, I'd like if the next installment would get rid of them or change them". Emphasis on "I'd like". Not "I will burn the industry down and all men with it".

It's hard for me, because i do actually really want to see more variety in games. I want to see more protagonists that aren't the standard white straight cis male mold, but i also don't feel like a game is bad if it has a white straight cis male as the hero, but as long as people are telling me to check my privilege, i'm still threatened to some extent. There are still people who feel i shouldn't be who i am, and i'm not going to just roll over for those people. So that's where i stand, not a very fun place to be.

And very few people say that a game is bad for having a white straight cis male as the hero. I can't say I've ever heard anyone say it outright. I've heard people say that perhaps the industry could invest more in new storylines and characters instead of playing it in the safest possible way as if a gay man or a black woman would be the end of that game. "Perhaps some games could try NOT having a white straight cis male in his thirties with brown hair and stubble as the main character" =/= "Every game with a white straight cis male in his thirties with brown hair and stubble as the main character is bad and you should feel bad for playing it". If you truly mean what you said about wanting more variety, then I see no reason for us to not get along and for you to feel threatened. We all play what is currently available and we all enjoy it (some things we enjoy more, some things less; different tastes and all) and we all want the industry to employ more variety. There is literally nothing here that we disagree on.

I'm really sorry if you feel personally attacked for this, because that is not the point of criticizing this boring trope. And also, I know what it's like to feel threatened and I don't wish that for anyone. I know there are assholes out there who say shit and we should be fighting assholes together, instead of creating sides and saying things like "this is my hobby".

 

[Erttheking]

If there was a threat, we'd be seeing a heck of a lot more than just a few articles that seem to have already gone out of fashion. We'd have people censoring games, pulling them off shelves, gamestops set on fire. None of that has happened. We got a few jackasses writing articles, hardly a threat. And what does the popular stereotype of nerd have to do with anything? That's like saying that there's a threat against sports because of the common stereotypes of portraying them as bullies.

I meant to compare how white men and black men have to deal with the police. I apologize

Ert I believe you just committed a fallacy of an Appeal to Ridicule.

The "threat" as Insaninator has failed to illicit is that because the gaming press is dominated by social justice bards, or whatever, it has begun to spin a narrative to speed change into the industry and culture. IE: The popular and influential gaming press is dominated by progressives. Because of this they can influence reviews, bring pressure on developers, and push topics that are best able to promote the change they want.

Gamergate is the conservative response to this change, it is neither good nor bad. And definetly not entirely made up of one homogenous ethnic/gender/economic/political block of gamers.

I did? I did not mean to. I apologize.

I'm not well informed on that, but that wasn't what he was talking about. He was talking about the "Death of the gamer" articles, which as far as I know we have not been seeing any of since the original outrage. That is all. Everything else is connected to the whole gamergate controversy which...to be perfectly honest I have been rendered completely apathetic to due to both sides of the argument being complete jackasses. Either way, it wasn't really involved with what I was talking about with this guy.

(Social justice bards? Is that what we're calling them now? What's next? Social justice druids? Social justice paladins? Social justice death knights?)