What do people actually want male gamers to be like?
- Thread starter Doclector
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Agreed. The problem is, they tend to be convinced they're still furthering the cause of equality. Perhaps it's Orwellian equality - some are more equal than others.elvor0 said:
And that'd be what people like OP and I are complaining about, not that it's just "the media". The problem is sweeping over-generalisations made by your average person-whose-label-must-not-be-used. Some people are going on about how male gamers are misogynists, in response to which I hear that it doesn't apply to me personally so I shouldn't feel attacked, to which I answer: don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining. Anyone who wants to denounce misogynists shouldn't talk about male gamers, they should talk about misogynists. It's really not a difficult concept, and anyone who somehow fails to grasp it is an enemy to us all.elvor0 said:
Don't carpet-bomb an entire village to kill a few Vietcong then tell the overwhelming majority of innocent civillians who just got attacked that they shouldn't "feel attacked" because it's not them you were after. Ever hear the term "collateral damage"? Chances are the civillians hated the VC as much as you do, but thanks to a spray-and-pray attitude (be it from yourselves or in your name by someone you call an ally) you'll never get the locals' support now. Which it turns out would be a powerful tool indeed. Sure would've been nice if you'd just used a sniper the first time around, or offered help in purging the undesirable elements themselves. Hearts and minds, people - those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it.
This, minus the word "almost". And it's this bigotry (along with the prejudice) frequently displayed by people who claim to oppose bigotry and prejudice that have made me swear off anyone claiming those two labels-that-must-not-be-used as a whole. In my experience, those who truly understand the issues and wish to change things without destructive confrontations tend to go by "humanist" or "egalitarian" instead.elvor0 said:
And I'm sure dismissing and belittling his experiences via sarcasm is sure to persuade him and will in no way reflect badly on you. You're not helping here, bro.Vault101 said:
Admittedly I've not experienced exactly the same things as described by OP, but I have in the last year had confrontations (internet doesn't count, I mean IRL) with two individuals (one of whom is into the "social justice" scene) who've applied their stereotypes to me then given me shit for the misogyny that their stereotype exhibits.
While I may take exception to your means, Vault101, I completely agree regarding the end - the advice to OP, specifically (in not so many words): Haters gonna hate, do your thing and as long as you're not being a dick anyone who thinks badly of you can get fucked. They're doing you a favour, really, making it easier to identify idiots worthy of neither your time nor your respect.
Those who want male gamers to act like decent human beings should probably get the more rabid attack dogs to treat us like decent human beings. You know, rather than "[x]ist until proven innocent"? Basically, clean up your own camp first.Too many people to quote individually said:
If we are thinking in tems of "us" and "them" then here's a problem. At this point "our" rabid people exist because "your" rabid people exist, probably regardless of who you put in either place. That is why most of us want to discuss things, because this has gone beyond being something that one side alone can fix.SquidSponge said:
I'd argue that they haven't been criticizing the people that play them, but rather a small and rather vocal subset of people that play them that also happen to be terrible human beings. Honestly, I've never much cared for this scandal the moment it broke and I'm not about to start now. You sir it seems have gotten caught in the lame and equally filth laden back and forth from two extremist sides trying to make this about their points of view instead of taking into account the majority of people, much like in politics, falls squarely in the middle.Doclector said:
Do people want to stop corruption in the gaming industry? Yep. The majority of people want to stop corruption anywhere, in America (I'm an American) this is doubly true seeing as we as a nation have a borderline obsession with fair play and believe that work ethic can take you were ever you want to go...despite how true or untrue that might be.
Do people want more diverse characters and storylines? Well of course that goes without saying. Variety keeps things interesting, no game wants to play the same level a thousand times and just from hanging out on the internet you get a sense that everyone "arguing against diversity in games" tends to be arguing more about how they don't like or are worried about how it is implemented more so than that they don't want it to happen.
So in short no one's view point is a cesspit of villainy, usually, but the issues come up with the extremist on both sides whom seem to take this "The other side is the devil" mentality while at the same time trying to mold it into some silly "us versus them". Zealots of any flavor are bad as a general rule and I feel like you're getting yourself worked up over being in the middle. So if people can't have polite discourse I'm going to say you should move on to a group of people that aren't having a cowpie fight and live your life.
As a male gamer I have never been berated or harassed or pressured into changing anything about my behavior. I'm not so deluded as to think that my experiences are representative of all male gamers everywhere all the time. So I will not dismiss you by insinuating that you are exaggerating or playing the victim just to get attention. Are there perhaps some particular instances where you have felt slighted or oppressed by people because of your sex/gender or your identity as a gamer? Would you care to elaborate on that so that I and others might better understand your perspective and perhaps even modify our behavior to ease your discomfort?
Also, you might take the above as an example of how to respond to criticism in a constructive way. Social change is a dialog.
Also, you might take the above as an example of how to respond to criticism in a constructive way. Social change is a dialog.
I think a good first step is acknowledging that most people are good and that the assholes of both sides are only a fraction.
When someone harasses a woman for being a woman or for offering critique, he's not a "male gamer" in that moment, he's just an "internet asshole".
As long as people don't think of internet assholes as "male gamers" there'll be no more problems.
When someone harasses a woman for being a woman or for offering critique, he's not a "male gamer" in that moment, he's just an "internet asshole".
As long as people don't think of internet assholes as "male gamers" there'll be no more problems.
I'd disagree with that. It's not a clear distinction between good people and arseholes, lots of otherwise decent people can be pretty bad on specific issues.Dreiko said:
Of course, they are only decent if the are bad in specific issues that don't really concern you.
This is the kind of thing that makes me sad.SquidSponge said:
I keep seeing people say "its radical feminists that are the problem!" but misandrists are not necessarily feminists, and 'radical feminist' groups do not actually get much attention because everyone can see that their goals are not aligned with feminism, much like how the KKK is not seen to speak for white people. But people keep bringing them up again and again to justify their dislike/disapproval of feminism, and it's just really frustrating. It's sort of saying "you have radicals and those radicals justify EVERYTHING we have done, despite you not agreeing supporting or treating these radicals as any kind of acceptable viewpoint.
Then gamers go on to defend their own extremely toxic behavior instead of condemning it like they should. It's a sort of double standard that is existing right now that kind of undermines the whole argument. People take swipes at a mythical group like it's representative of feminism and use those actions to justify defending their own toxic behavior because attacks on the "jerks" are seen indirectly as attacks on "all".
It's easy to justify this attitude towards feminists because again, society says that a certain attitude is the norm, and the easiest way to attack the other is through the use of extreme stereotyping. It's unfortunate feminism got this stereotype, because feminism has almost NOTHING to do with how people talk about it, yet people still say "this is why feminists suck" without actually realizing that their belief about what feminists represent has nothing to do with feminism actually represents.
There is no clear answer, because the question you're asking is not precise enough to allow one considering the complexity of society.Doclector said:
Many standards are mutually contradictory if taken as general sets representing acceptable behaviour across people in general. Some of the items of some of those sets overlap, or where they don't are things that people find less important than some of the ones that do, and that's how we can mostly live together without killing one another; and some of them are relatively specific and don't, or are relatively important, and that's why we can't always live together. You can't meet people's standards, in the general sense of people. I can't either, at least not without crippling myself to the point where I curl up in the corner of the room and cry myself to sleep. No-one can, the world just doesn't work like that.
You have to decide what you value: How you want to make people feel around you, what accomodations you think are worth making to that effect based on how they're going to make you feel. And then some people will hate you for it and some people won't. At the moment this gamer-gate thing seems to be big in the press for whatever reason - it's down to you to decide whether you think that what it's saying accurately describes you, whether you care about the effect it has on the people complaining if it does, and alter your behaviour or discard the complaint as irrelevant to your situation/interests on that basis.
But if you're holding out for a situation where you follow one set of rules and 'people' are okay with you? Doesn't matter whether you're a man or a woman, that doesn't seem likely to happen.
Generally, people need to say "this is toxic behavior and we don't agree." That's it. I'm not asking for any kind of burning pitchforks, but when sexual harassment and violence against women occurs, people should not say things like "they are taking away our hobby!" or "Women should just stay out of our games" or "women should be happy with what they get or find a different hobby!" That's all really. When people say that, all gamers should just say "not cool man."Thorn14 said:
The issue is alot of VERY vocal people defend the "old guard" gamer culture and refuse to adapt to new trends... such as more of my fellow gals playing games and kicking butt.
It's not about silencing them, it's about showing disagreement with their actions. If enough people say "no, take that shit elsewhere." people would stop associating all gamers with the toxic behavior. And I KNOW it's a very vocal minority, but that's the problem... it's vocal, it's detractors are less so and tend to get shouted into silence.
I've been around since NES, I've played online games since the REALM, FPS's like Counter Strike, I've seen it all. Gamers are NOT terrible people by and by, it's just really unfortunate that the vocal toxic "elite gamers" (yes, I am VERY much using quotes for that) are the ones who are getting by far the most visibility. Most of us just don't care and want to play games, I'm in that camp, but I've taken an activist role specifically to try and talk about this particular problem, because it's hurting all of us.
First of all, dragonswarrior, if you want to present ?white privilege? as a legitimate argument, then you?ll have to ignore the entirety of Irish, Scottish, Polish, Jewish, and Italian history.
Second of all, I believe this image is relevant.
Please don?t take this as an attack. It?s just that whenever I hear stuff about ?privilege? and ?oppression? (especially from people living in First World countries), it makes me think like everyone?s having some kind of Oppression Olympics over whose life is shittier and who got it worse in the birth lottery.
I?m black, but I?m also male. Do I have ?male privilege?, or does the fact that I?m an ethnic minority balance it out? Still, even though I was bullied at school for my ethnicity (although they called it ?banter? and that I was just ?sensitive?), I don?t see myself as being oppressed. My parents weren?t slaves. I don?t use my ethnicity as an excuse for the problems I may have in my life. I don?t need Jesse Jackson to tell me that I?m strong, independent, and could be the Mayor of London if I wanted to. I don?t recall ever really having a ?male power fantasy?; all I thought was that guys like Batman and Sonic the Hedgehog were cool as hell. But I thought the same thing about Chun-Li and Dixie Kong. Most people, men and women, like having power, but I doubt most of us decide to write a comic book or video game where the protagonist gets to beat up homeless prostitutes for that reason (unless they?re Frank Miller, lol).
Couldn?t I claim that those same white women, like Sarkeesian and Quinn, complaining about ?male privilege?, are themselves a bunch of shameless con-artists with ?white privilege?, ?heteronormative privilege?, ?American privilege?, or ?middle-class privilege?? Heck, let?s go the whole hog. You?re whining about having periods? Trans women can?t even have periods; this is just ?cis privilege?! You don?t like men looking at your legs when you wear a miniskirt? Did you even stop to think about disabled women who don?t have legs and face discrimination because of it? ?Ableist privilege!?
See my point? I?m not denying that there?s a lack of variety when it comes to well-written characters in story-driven video games, but if a developer puts their blood and sweat into a game, only for their work to be ripped apart and belittled by some preachy Starbucks-sipping yuppie who thinks they have any idea how the industry works, they should quite frankly fuck off and stop demanding that developers make games for their demographic above one that is just more safe and marketable. You know, I once literally read an article about a woman who?d been sexually abused by her mother as a child, and then in turn attempted to justify her fear of lesbians by saying that others would understand if they?d gone through what she had. No, I?m sorry, it?s sad that your mother fucked you, but it?s not the lesbians? fault.
Fuck the Oppression Olympics. Fuck censorship. Fuck privilege. Fuck ?ableism?. Fuck ?the patriarchy? (as if it?s some kind of evil secret organisation run by a Mr. Burns-like figure to put down those pesky broads who don?t know their place). Fuck ?rape culture?. Fuck ?cultural appropriation? (although the fact that most people don?t know the origins of rock music and how they aren?t many popular black rock stars nowadays could be worth a topic all on its own). Fuck class divisions. Fuck ?social justice?. Fuck sex-negative feminism. Fuck radical feminism. All people want to do is ***** and moan without doing anything of importance.
Second of all, I believe this image is relevant.
Please don?t take this as an attack. It?s just that whenever I hear stuff about ?privilege? and ?oppression? (especially from people living in First World countries), it makes me think like everyone?s having some kind of Oppression Olympics over whose life is shittier and who got it worse in the birth lottery.
I?m black, but I?m also male. Do I have ?male privilege?, or does the fact that I?m an ethnic minority balance it out? Still, even though I was bullied at school for my ethnicity (although they called it ?banter? and that I was just ?sensitive?), I don?t see myself as being oppressed. My parents weren?t slaves. I don?t use my ethnicity as an excuse for the problems I may have in my life. I don?t need Jesse Jackson to tell me that I?m strong, independent, and could be the Mayor of London if I wanted to. I don?t recall ever really having a ?male power fantasy?; all I thought was that guys like Batman and Sonic the Hedgehog were cool as hell. But I thought the same thing about Chun-Li and Dixie Kong. Most people, men and women, like having power, but I doubt most of us decide to write a comic book or video game where the protagonist gets to beat up homeless prostitutes for that reason (unless they?re Frank Miller, lol).
Couldn?t I claim that those same white women, like Sarkeesian and Quinn, complaining about ?male privilege?, are themselves a bunch of shameless con-artists with ?white privilege?, ?heteronormative privilege?, ?American privilege?, or ?middle-class privilege?? Heck, let?s go the whole hog. You?re whining about having periods? Trans women can?t even have periods; this is just ?cis privilege?! You don?t like men looking at your legs when you wear a miniskirt? Did you even stop to think about disabled women who don?t have legs and face discrimination because of it? ?Ableist privilege!?
See my point? I?m not denying that there?s a lack of variety when it comes to well-written characters in story-driven video games, but if a developer puts their blood and sweat into a game, only for their work to be ripped apart and belittled by some preachy Starbucks-sipping yuppie who thinks they have any idea how the industry works, they should quite frankly fuck off and stop demanding that developers make games for their demographic above one that is just more safe and marketable. You know, I once literally read an article about a woman who?d been sexually abused by her mother as a child, and then in turn attempted to justify her fear of lesbians by saying that others would understand if they?d gone through what she had. No, I?m sorry, it?s sad that your mother fucked you, but it?s not the lesbians? fault.
Fuck the Oppression Olympics. Fuck censorship. Fuck privilege. Fuck ?ableism?. Fuck ?the patriarchy? (as if it?s some kind of evil secret organisation run by a Mr. Burns-like figure to put down those pesky broads who don?t know their place). Fuck ?rape culture?. Fuck ?cultural appropriation? (although the fact that most people don?t know the origins of rock music and how they aren?t many popular black rock stars nowadays could be worth a topic all on its own). Fuck class divisions. Fuck ?social justice?. Fuck sex-negative feminism. Fuck radical feminism. All people want to do is ***** and moan without doing anything of importance.
Said vocal minority is very loud, but remember that you don't have to be. After all, if everyone simply calls them out on bad behavior gently it doesn't matter how much they scream- it's still clear they are isolated and minimal. But, every rational soul needs to be willing to say, when confronted with one of these characters- 'You are behaving badly, knock it off.' rather than relying on someone else to do it for them.
Let them whine about the tyranny of the majority.
Let them whine about the tyranny of the majority.
There's so much misunderstanding of what feminism is in this post. Privilege means men have advantages women do not have simply due to gender. However, being a black male does expose you to disadvantages based on race, it does not expose you to the SAME disadvantage someone has for being female. Let alone someone who is say, a black female. Male power fantasy tends to be a very specific thing regarding heroism and bravery, exemplifying positive masculine traits. Women seen as having a similar power fantasy are seen as kind of weird or abnormal, despite the fact that those masculine traits are in fact great for both genders. Assertiveness, bravery, independence, etc.Relish in Chaos said:First of all, dragonswarrior, if you want to present ?white privilege? as a legitimate argument, then you?ll have to ignore the entirety of Irish, Scottish, Polish, Jewish, and Italian history.
Second of all, I believe this image is relevant.
Please don?t take this as an attack. It?s just that whenever I hear stuff about ?privilege? and ?oppression? (especially from people living in First World countries), it makes me think like everyone?s having some kind of Oppression Olympics over whose life is shittier and who got it worse in the birth lottery.
I?m black, but I?m also male. Do I have ?male privilege?, or does the fact that I?m an ethnic minority balance it out? Still, even though I was bullied at school for my ethnicity (although they called it ?banter? and that I was just ?sensitive?), I don?t see myself as being oppressed. My parents weren?t slaves. I don?t use my ethnicity as an excuse for the problems I may have in my life. I don?t need Jesse Jackson to tell me that I?m strong, independent, and could be the Mayor of London if I wanted to. I don?t recall ever really having a ?male power fantasy?; all I thought was that guys like Batman and Sonic the Hedgehog were cool as hell. But I thought the same thing about Chun-Li and Dixie Kong. Most people, men and women, like having power, but I doubt most of us decide to write a comic book or video game where the protagonist gets to beat up homeless prostitutes for that reason (unless they?re Frank Miller, lol).
Couldn?t I claim that those same white women, like Sarkeesian and Quinn, complaining about ?male privilege?, are themselves a bunch of shameless con-artists with ?white privilege?, ?heteronormative privilege?, ?American privilege?, or ?middle-class privilege?? Heck, let?s go the whole hog. You?re whining about having periods? Trans women can?t even have periods; this is just ?cis privilege?! You don?t like men looking at your legs when you wear a miniskirt? Did you even stop to think about disabled women who don?t have legs and face discrimination because of it? ?Ableist privilege!?
See my point? I?m not denying that there?s a lack of variety when it comes to well-written characters in story-driven video games, but if a developer puts their blood and sweat into a game, only for their work to be ripped apart and belittled by some preachy Starbucks-sipping yuppie who thinks they have any idea how the industry works, they should quite frankly fuck off and stop demanding that developers make games for their demographic above one that is just more safe and marketable. You know, I once literally read an article about a woman who?d been sexually abused by her mother as a child, and then in turn attempted to justify her fear of lesbians by saying that others would understand if they?d gone through what she had. No, I?m sorry, it?s sad that your mother fucked you, but it?s not the lesbians? fault.
Fuck the Oppression Olympics. Fuck censorship. Fuck privilege. Fuck ?ableism?. Fuck ?the patriarchy? (as if it?s some kind of evil secret organisation run by a Mr. Burns-like figure to put down those pesky broads who don?t know their place). Fuck ?rape culture?. Fuck ?cultural appropriation? (although the fact that most people don?t know the origins of rock music and how they aren?t many popular black rock stars nowadays could be worth a topic all on its own). Fuck class divisions. Fuck ?social justice?. Fuck sex-negative feminism. Fuck radical feminism. All people want to do is ***** and moan without doing anything of importance.
They don't have it as bad as say, women of ethnic minorities, but it doesnt change the fact that male privilege does have a hold over our culture, and over MANy cultures in the world. Other places like Japan, or the middle east have even stronger patriarchical societies where women are more oppressed than they are here. Just because a country has a shittier economic state does not mean male privilege does not exist.
It's interesting you pretty much apply derogatory statements to those who criticize developers, when it's those developers who are the ones who have put tons of effort into making boring samey protaganists specifically because they are safer. It's easier to make a more appearling hero who fits the generic acceptable mold than to step out of those boundaries and take risks with the heros ethnicity. Will taking those risks make a better selling game... not necessarily, but it would simply increase diversity and make writing more compelling by portraying people of more walks of life than... one.
You're spouting alot of hate on topics that you don't seem to really understand. People can think or feel whatever they want, the issue is when our society and culture gives advantages based on beliefs that are not true, and that's where "privilege" comes in. It is not about oppression, its not about censorship, and saying "fuck patriarchy" (masculine dominated society, which is a large part of the world) are signs that you might need to take a closer look at what these words mean and what they represent. As for the rest.. rape culture... I don't really have anything to say. It's a thing, it's been studied to death. Please keep an open mind regarding these issues you seem to be against.
Remember, its not the people who don't care who created change, its the ones who cared, and did something about it.
I'm trying to get more help, more therapy. I'm trying to keep as active socially as I can manage. And considering how fucking angry I've been at this issue, it may surprise you but I've been trying to process my thoughts a little more before I let myself get angry. One day I wanna campaign for better recognition of autism as a serious condition, whilst trying for a little more equality in general for the disabled and mentally ill, most of whom it's still considered fine to make fun of in our society. I wanna get a job and save up for my own equipment so I can make films towards such a goal.maidenm said:
So in short I'm doing all I can. Which is difficult when it feels like the world wants to knock me on my ass all the time. Which tenuously brings us back to the topic at hand, the problem with privilege is that people just assume shit based on gender, race and sexuality. People assume because I'm a straight white male I have skipped through fields of honey and popcorn for most of my life. Hell, even being white wasn't much of an advantage in school. Our school had a great sense of equality, y'see, it was a cultural melting pot where everyone seemed to hate each other fucking equally. I mean it, seriously, the numbers were that balanced that it was hard to pick out a racial majority but they didn't do jack shit about actually tackling racism so people just shit on everyone who wasn't like them.
I would've left that school, but guess what? No other school in the area wanted to deal with my Aspergers. Despite the fact that "dealing with it" would've been little more than than just a bit of extra support and maybe, just maybe, actually doing something about bullying.
I'm sorry but most people don't make death or rape threats and they also don't think it's okay. What most do think is that it's an unfortunate reality on the internet and one they cannot get rid off. I'd say your statement is part of the problem. You're making it look like it's some kind of culturally accepted thing among male gamers, it is not.dragonswarrior said:
What privilege? In the industry it's quite clear, men inject most money so they get most return. It would actually be quite a privilege for the others if they could get the same while investing less. But than again i don't subscribe to marxism, maybe you do?