What exactly is the moral difference between pirating a game and borrowing one if you...

JimB

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Genocidicles said:
Sort of jumping off the opening post, what's the moral difference between pirating a film or music, and taping it from the TV or radio?
The product was paid for to be on TV or the radio, so your recording isn't taking money away from the producer unless you sell it.

Flatfrog said:
How's this for a question - is it morally wrong to skip the ads which paid for the movies?
No. The producers have a deal with the advertisers saying the product will display their advertisements. No one has any deal with me, and I am not obligated to watch anything I don't want to.

T3hSource said:
I just love how companies in the west have ingrained in their societies that pirating is 'morally wrong.'
Piracy is theft, plain and simple. "Companies," whatever that means, are not required to train people to believe theft is wrong.
 

clippen05

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Well, there really isn't a moral difference. In both ways, one person gets to play a game and the developers don't get money for it. Sure, someone bought the game, but still, YOU didn't.
 

Sarge034

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Anoni Mus said:
Piracy is piracy, not theft. New and different meaning.
What is so new about it?

"Piracy is the name of a specific crime under customary international law and also the name of a number of crimes under the municipal law of a number of States. It is distinguished from privateering, which is authorized by national authorities and therefore a legitimate form of war-like activity by non-state actors. Privateering is considered commerce raiding, and was outlawed by the Peace of Westphalia (1648) for signatories to those treaties."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy

So privateering is commerce raiding by government agents and piracy is commerce raiding by rouge individuals. Both are theft and, since 1648, both are illegal.

OT- The difference is that there is still only one game floating around when you let a person barrow the game you have paid for and only one person can play the game at a time. There are potentially infinite copies of a pirated game and all users can play at the same time.
 

gim73

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Morally, this sort of piracy is null. Oh sure, there is legality, but you can be DAMN sure just because something is illegal it isn't necessarily immoral, and vice-versa. But on the Morality side, theft is tied to ownership.

Let us look at an example. I have a bag of old gold coins. You break into my house and steal that, and it makes you a thief. Now let's say that you break into my house and just sit in my closet, wanking it while you watch me have sex with my wife. Now the moral issue isn't theft, it's more akin to coveting another mans wife. There are still legal issues trespassing and probably some property damage. But you didn't 'steal' the sexual experience with my wife, even if you recorded it.

Morality does not care about opportunity cost. It only deals in physical goods. It doesn't care about new or used games. Stealing a 25 year old nintendo game is the same morally as stealing a brand new game from Best Buy. Conversely, pirating a brand new game digitally over the internet is morally the same as reciting Shakespeare in the Park. Morality does not give a crap that EA 'lost a sale'. EA never created that physical product to be stolen. Morality does not buy into copyright laws and intellectual property. Those are things of Legality and another debate.

Which brings us to today and this upcoming generation of consoles that are declaring 'Digital is the Future'. To which, I can only reply, "If you really believe that digital is the future and you don't want to actually produce a product, then why should I feel any remorse when your product is pirated?" I shouldn't because they want to produce a product offered as a SERVICE. In this case, there is no ownership, and when they go under (and they will), that service isn't offered any more, and the consumer has been robbed of the product he THOUGHT he owned.

Now, I saw that others keying into the whole cassette recorders and VCR debate, which is EXACTLY the right direction to look. Both of those great inventions to record movies and music without paying the 'copyright owners'. Oh, how they screamed and hollered over that! How dare we consumers pay for basic cable and not have to pay twice to possess the movies we enjoy? While we did win that fight, eventually, we find ourselves wondering why some people don't understand the difference between a moral standpoint and a legal standpoint.
 

Azure-Supernova

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James Joseph Emerald said:
If someone creates something which you enjoy, and you choose to partake, the moral thing to do is pay them for it. Beyond that, you're just twisting logic to suit your own sense of, well, entitlement.
The part in bold is important, because right now with the video game industry the publishers dictate the prices. They are putting a standard fee (that £40/$60 price tag) on an experience, which to be fair is a bit of a predicament in itself. Most Publishers uphold that industry standard regardless of budget. But consumers are smart, they want to pay what they think the product/service is worth, which is why some people don't buy on day one and wait for it to come down in price or buy a used copy. That's what the whole "Talk/fight with your wallet" argument is all about when it came to EA and Microsoft's business practices.

From a moral standpoint, piracy and lending are defined by your individual values. The difference is how badly piracy has been demonized by Publishers and Developers scrambling for something to blame instead of their own inadequacy to provide the consumer with a worthwhile product. The people who don't want to pay for things will always find a way of not paying, it's that simple.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Every single pro-piracy argument exists in some sort of ridiculous vacuum hypothetical.

"What's the difference between lending a game to a real life friend and letting someone I barely know download the game from the other side of the planet? It's still one person playing a game they didn't personally pay for, right?"

How many people do you know in real life? How many of them are you lending games to on a regular basis? Given the logistics involved, what would you estimate is the economic impact of lending a physical copy of a game to 2-3 people? The loss of maybe 2-3 sales reliably anchored around at least one legitimate sale with the potential for 1-3 more sales if your friends decide to buy the game? In what mind is this situation remotely comparable to tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands or even millions) of people downloading a game 100% free with ZERO anchor sales through the speed and convenience of modern broadband internet?

We're simply too integrated and plentiful, as a species, for any discussion not to land on systems-level analysis. If you're comparing one-to-one hypothetical situations and attempting to arrive at some universal truth, you're all but guaranteed to ignore broader consequences. This makes your analysis incomplete at best and a waste of everyone's time at worst.

Might as well go ahead and destroy the "if it's not a lost sale, what does it matter whether or not I pirate a game?" argument.

Games cost money to make.
If no one pays money for games, they won't be made.
If I'm paying for games to be made and you're playing them for free, you don't owe developers money. You owe ME money.

If anyone ever wonders why anti-piracy people come off so self-righteous and angry, it's because we're the ones subsidizing the theft. We don't hate pirates on ideological grounds. We hate them because they're indirectly taking our money.

From a moral standpoint, piracy and lending are defined by your individual values. The difference is how badly piracy has been demonized by Publishers and Developers scrambling for something to blame instead of their own inadequacy to provide the consumer with a worthwhile product. The people who don't want to pay for things will always find a way of not paying, it's that simple.
And they will always be shitheads in the eyes of us who enable games to made at all.

Don't conflate failed games and publisher idiocy with the ethics of piracy. Tomb Raider flopping because they spent too much money on advertising and generated unrealistic sales expectations is one thing. Witcher 2 being pirated left and right by people who have decided for themselves that it's okay to steal is another thing entirely.
 

rob_simple

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Kaulen Fuhs said:
rob_simple said:
If I loan a game to my friend, then fair enough that is one sale the company loses. If I rip it and put it up online for anyone to download, that is potentially thousands of sales the company loses.
Potentially. Many people pirate things they have no intention of paying money for in any case, so it hardly seems like the term "lost sale" is applicable to such instances.
Oh brilliant, this argument again. So does that mean I can go into a restaurant and start eating off of peoples' plates, because I never had any intention of buying dinner there? Does that mean I can break into a hotel room and spend the night without repercussions because it was empty anyway?

If you have no intention of paying money for a service then you have absolutely no right to access that service. You still can access it, true, but the whole 'I wouldn't have bought it anyway' is just bullshit justification pirates feed each other and everyone else to try and pretend what they are doing isn't dishonest.

No matter what way you try and slice it, millions of people pirating statistically equals more lost sales than if nobody pirated, and it also equals more lost sales than if one in two people bought legally and shared with a friend.
 

pnts

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The difference is pretty obvious. When you borrow the game from the friend the friend has paid for a copy. Therefore in the borrowing situation two people have bought a game whereas the piracy issue is one person stealing a game. Incredibly clear cut.
 

Jamieson 90

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I'm surprised very few if anyone has mentioned the simple fact that there is a big difference between copying something without permission, and borrowing a game off a friend with their consent. One act is legal while the other is not. Piracy at its core comes down to the fact that you're taking intellectual property without the owner's consent, it doesn't matter if they plan to sell that for profit or any loss they may or may not potentially incur, you still copied something you had no right to copy in the first place, and you can justify that all you want until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.
 

Frotality

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the moral difference is obvious: once bought, a physical game is free to be borrowed at the owner's leisure. pirating, regardless of whether the source bought it or not, is duplication of a product; the data needed to play the game is not changing hands but instead being used to make free copies.

the point of conflict is just how much ownership a company or consumer can claim over a particular arrangement of 1s and 0s. as technology makes data more and more accessible, people are less dependent on physical products, and instead of adapting most publishers just throw a hissy fit and blame pirates and used games.

from a philosophical standpoint, the difference is not in the personal perspective, but the sociological. if it becomes socially accepted that pirating and deleting and borrowing are more or less the same thing, companies WILL lose money because no one will be buying games to be borrowed in the first place if everyone is psychologically secure in downloading it. they are only one in the same when applied to a small circle of people, one of which has the game and every intention to let everyone of the others borrow it. then and only then is the difference between borrowing and pirating financially the same. even then it breaks down, because the time needed for everyone of them to finish the game and pass it on as opposed to everyone just downloading it at the same relative time is a factor; social pressure from those who have played/are playing it can influence people towards a sell, as well as the simple passage of time. you cant just judge the immediate physical consequence of two actions, you(and marketing departments) have to consider how they influence people as well.
 

Daymo

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T3hSource said:
I just love how companies in the west have ingrained in their societies that pirating is 'morally wrong'.

Is it 'bad'? Yes, it's bad for the producer.
I like how society has ingrained that theft is bad, it's bad for the owner, not the thief.
 

gim73

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Jamieson 90 said:
I'm surprised very few if anyone has mentioned the simple fact that there is a big difference between copying something without permission, and borrowing a game off a friend with their consent. One act is legal while the other is not. Piracy at its core comes down to the fact that you're taking intellectual property without the owner's consent, it doesn't matter if they plan to sell that for profit or any loss they may or may not potentially incur, you still copied something you had no right to copy in the first place, and you can justify that all you want until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.
Yes, that was mentioned back when we started talking about tape cassette recorders and VCRs. Hell, these days I can set my cable box to record whatever I don't feel like watching at the moment and come back to it whenever, and then fast forward past the commercials.

When you say that it is 'wrong' you imply that it is morally an issue. This is a legal issue, which is VERY subjective to borders and prevailing attitudes. For example, it is morally wrong to murder an unarmed teenager, however it is legally allowable to shoot a hostile angry person who pummels you to the ground, bashing your head into the sidewalk and makes you fear for your life, so long as you live in florida.

Legality is a HUGE issue when it comes to one-sided issues like this. For the most part, Governments go against the consumer every single time. And it certainly doesn't help when 'elected' officials vote according to their corporate overlords direction rather than the population that voted them into office.

I guess what I'm saying is: If you have an idea and make a product that makes money, that's great. If you have an idea and intend to make your product into something that has no physical form and then cry when somebody finds a way to cut you out of the loop, don't go crying to big brother that people are 'pirating' your idea!
 

Something Amyss

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Sutter Cane said:
delete the game after you beat it?
Borrowing a game implies that someone who had access doesn't until you return it. If I loan you a game, you have it and I don't. If I host a torrent or something similar and you download it, we both have access to the game. That's one more person than it's intended for, and that assumes it's a 1:1 deal.

This applies to lending, renting, used game sales, etc. They were paid for their work once (all they should be entitled to) and there are never more concurrent users than number of discs sold[footnote]We are, of course, ignoring things like split-screen/couch co-op, as that is part of the game's design and a choice by the designers themselves[/footnote]. The minute you pirate/copy, you are adding more users than copies sold.

The right to loan or resell one's copy stems in large part from it actually exchanging hands.

WeepingAngels said:
Piracy is considered to be theft while borrowing something isn't.
Of course, neither actually is theft, but one is still wrong. We've even gotten to the heart of why.

Zhukov said:
There isn't any difference in that both scenarios (borrowing and pirating) mean at least one person is playing a game that they did not personally pay for.

And now you know why developers, publishers and console manufacturers are trying to crack down on used games sales.
But used games are something that the end user did personally pay for.
 

Flatfrog

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Aren't these two statements inconsistent?

JimB said:
Genocidicles said:
Sort of jumping off the opening post, what's the moral difference between pirating a film or music, and taping it from the TV or radio?
The product was paid for to be on TV or the radio, so your recording isn't taking money away from the producer unless you sell it.

T3hSource said:
I just love how companies in the west have ingrained in their societies that pirating is 'morally wrong.'
Piracy is theft, plain and simple. "Companies," whatever that means, are not required to train people to believe theft is wrong.
Isn't one of the chief arguments made by those who oppose your second statement the same as the one in the first statement? That is - piracy is not taking money or property away from anyone and therefore is not theft?

Just to make this clear - if I tape a movie off the TV and watch it multiple times, there is no intrinsic difference from my torrenting the same movie. As far as the producers are concerned, the two have the same result, which is that one person has made use of their product without paying for it.

So I don't think it's possible to say 'piracy is theft, plain and simple'. You can define it to be theft, but there's certainly nothing plain and simple about it. Whatever the legal position, everyone has some level of piracy which they feel is morally acceptable, even you - as evidenced by your first statement.
 

Entitled

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Jamieson 90 said:
I'm surprised very few if anyone has mentioned the simple fact that there is a big difference between copying something without permission, and borrowing a game off a friend with their consent. One act is legal while the other is not.
The friend that you borrowed from doesn't have ownership over the right to distribute it, any more than the pirate site that uploaded it.

When you are borrowing a game, you are still taking it without the owner of the IP. The standard EULA still contains the statement that "It is a violation of this EULA to sell, loan, rent, lease, borrow, or transfer the use of copies".

You are right in the second half of your statement, that one is legal and the other is not. But this isn't justified by the first half of your statement, publishers don't get to have all of their wishes obeyed, case-by-vase demands and EULA's are non-binding if they contradict copyright law.

Universal studio also really hated the Betamax recording to TV shows. They went to court to ban it in 1984 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc.]. They feared the financial loss resulting from it. But the court declared that making private, noncommercial copies is Fair Use, and thus a public right. Basically, if Universal hates it, they can go fly a kite.

File-sharing isn't illegal just because the owners say they don't want you to pirate, but because it happens to be illegal by the current US regulation anyways. And not even everywhere in the world, Switzerland and the Netherlands [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114537-File-sharing-Remains-Legal-In-Switzerland] both made similar rulings about non-commercial file-sharing of otherwise copyrighted data.

So yeah, if you pirate in the US, you have "copied something you had no right to copy", but don't pretend that exactly what rights you happen to have to copy or not to copy, fundamentally justified by any consistent basis, like "the owner's consent".
 

Entitled

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FieryTrainwreck said:
Every single pro-piracy argument exists in some sort of ridiculous vacuum hypothetical.

"What's the difference between lending a game to a real life friend and letting someone I barely know download the game from the other side of the planet? It's still one person playing a game they didn't personally pay for, right?"

Might as well go ahead and destroy the "if it's not a lost sale, what does it matter whether or not I pirate a game?" argument.

Games cost money to make.
If no one pays money for games, they won't be made.
If I'm paying for games to be made and you're playing them for free, you don't owe developers money. You owe ME money.
In spite of whatever you might be led to believe from Kant's Categorical Imperative, not every specific action's morality can be inferred from the exaggerated scenario of what if everyone would be always doing the exact same thing.

As Woody Allen said, ?If everybody went to the same restaurant one evening to eat blintzes, there?d be chaos. But they don't?.

If everyone would always pirate everything, there would be chaos. But they don't.

You are talking about a "ridiculous vacuum hypothetical", but you are the one who ignores the actual real life context of an action, for a reductio ad absurdum hypothetical. The question about the difference between borrowing and pirating, already implicitly takes it into account that certain acts of piracy could decrease a creator's profitability, and specifically cited an example that doesn't.

The question is "what if I download one game, instead of borrowing it." That's not a vacuum hypothetical, that's the context of a thing that real people actually do. They occasionally stand there, with no money in their pocket, and start wondering whether they should just borrow it (which is legal), or pirate it (which would be more comfortable for everyone involved). What the moral consequences of that particular question are, can't be answered with generalizations of what other people could possibly be doing with other acts of piracy.

You can't "destroy the no-lost-sale argument" by meging all acts that can be described with the word "piracy" into a big pile of equivalence, when what people are arguing for is exactly that it's depending on a case-by-case basis.
 
Jun 16, 2010
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First off, you're very thoughtful, and I'm having fun debating this with you.
If I seem defensive or sarcastic, it's really just rhetoric.

Entitled said:
However, just as many of my own examples can't be the basis of a formally enforced reward system, likewise the Internet is moving entertainment in a direction where the right to ban file-sharing is not a self-evident right that artists have, and they have to make do with a combination of respect, and alternate revenue models.
The examples you came up with are very small-scale and incidental. You should feel somewhat grateful for the heat radiating from someone else's apartment into yours, but it'd be silly for them to demand 12 cent a month off you for it. Silly because it is such a minor issue. But when it comes down to it, if they're paying for every joule of energy their heater puts out, are they not entitled to come compensation from you, even if it would be farcical to ask? We let these things slide in real life, but from a strictly logical sense, you still technically owe them.

Let's follow your logic along, and come up with some less cherry-picked examples:
Assuming in each case, no other patrons miss out (in the short-term) due to your actions...
Would you ride a train without a ticket?
Would you sneak into a concert without paying?
Would you sneak into a museum without paying the admission cost?
Would you attend a lecture series without paying the lecturer?
Would you sleep in a hotel room without renting it?
Would you attend a convention without paying admission?

By your logic, you should also be entitled to do all of the above.


Entitled said:
For example, I feel entitled to wander around on the public streets and squares and parks freely. If a street fiddler would decide to try and lock down a large area with the justification that everyone walking past should be paying him for his music, then I would disagree, and walk past that street anyways, and even if it is a "deliberate, conscious decision that goes directly against the interests of him", then too bad, there is a limit to how much you get to limit others freedom of movement for your own benefit.

The Internet is not dissimilar from this analogy. It's a public area, where we share and access information. If some businesses start to lock down large segments of it, well, that might be necessary for our own good, but only in balance with our own rights... entitlements, if you will.
I highly disagree here. The Internet is not a "public place." It actually exists entirely on a series of boxes and cables which sit in people's homes and businesses; each person has the right to yank the cable out of their box. It's a little more complex than that, but it's definitely not a clear-cut "public park" analogy. But this is all beside the point of file-sharing.

Being prevented from copying a game is not akin to having a section of a public street blocked off. If you're a tax-paying citizen, public areas are built and maintained on your dime. That's where your sense of entitlement comes from: you have already paid for it, by paying your taxes. In this case, your entitlement is justified. In the case of a commercial game, which dozens of people have spent thousands of hours of their life creating, and to which you have contributed nothing, you are not entitled.

The only way the above sort of twisted logic would make any sort of sense is if you contributed something of equal or greater value to society, for free, which the developers of the game you're pirating made use of. Then your argument that "the fruits of human labour should be public domain" at least wouldn't be hypocritical. Its validity would be another matter.
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Azure-Supernova said:
From a moral standpoint, piracy and lending are defined by your individual values. The difference is how badly piracy has been demonized by Publishers and Developers scrambling for something to blame instead of their own inadequacy to provide the consumer with a worthwhile product. The people who don't want to pay for things will always find a way of not paying, it's that simple.
That argument only holds up if, after pirating something, you always make some sort of donation to the developers who made it. If you get any kind of enjoyment from it, you owe them something.
 

Flatfrog

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James Joseph Emerald said:
Azure-Supernova said:
From a moral standpoint, piracy and lending are defined by your individual values. The difference is how badly piracy has been demonized by Publishers and Developers scrambling for something to blame instead of their own inadequacy to provide the consumer with a worthwhile product. The people who don't want to pay for things will always find a way of not paying, it's that simple.
That argument only holds up if, after pirating something, you always make some sort of donation to the developers who made it. If you get any kind of enjoyment from it, you owe them something.
I had no idea the morality of ownership was based on enjoyment. So if I buy something and don't enjoy it, do the publishers have a moral obligation to give me my money back?