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Kwak

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That's... exactly the point that the author was making. You and her are in complete agreement. I don't see the issue here.
No because this 'point' is bullshit.

Where are all the women in their 40s and 60s coming out as trans? They should be coming out, now is their time, now is their moment. We should see tons of women in their 40s and 60s coming out as transgender and we’re not seeing that.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
That's... exactly the point that the author was making. You and her are in complete agreement. I don't see the issue here.
Maybe we are, maybe we aren't, I very much doubt we are considering she seems to be freaking the fuck out about something that in itself isn't a problem. Like she states that 2% of high school students have come out as trans where as before only .1% would. This isn't a problem at all, it reflects our growing acceptance of trans as something people are, before know people might just feel wrong in their bodies for their whole life. Now you could ask the question of "what about the 40-60 year olds, where are all of them coming out as trans?" But thats the thing, it does happen, but its uncommon because being trans is expensive and by that age you generally need surgery to really look like the sex you identify as, but if you are young and get hormones then you might be able to get by with no surgery at all and look like the gender you are more comfortable as.

If you notice I don't bring up the suicide stat, mainly because its not cause by being trans, its more of caused by not having the support needed while going through transition, cause even going through transition when you are young can be rough, and kids are the worst.
 

Houseman

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Now you could ask the question of "what about the 40-60 year olds, where are all of them coming out as trans?" But thats the thing, it does happen, but its uncommon because being trans is expensive and by that age you generally need surgery to really look like the sex you identify as, but if you are young and get hormones then you might be able to get by with no surgery at all and look like the gender you are more comfortable as.
Interesting theory. So it's just not worth it for people in that age range, and so they've resigned themselves to just suffer in silence for the rest of their lives?
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Sometimes you gotta admit when you know you're a genetic dead end. With the type of fucked up family I rolled away from, it would be completely irresponsible to try and have own kids, it would be instantly damning new life to some cocktail of mental illness one way or another. Though it's something I've long since accepted, there still is more being learnt to validate such acceptance further. It does not cease to be incredibly concerning.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Interesting theory. So it's just not worth it for people in that age range, and so they've resigned themselves to just suffer in silence for the rest of their lives?
Well, there is a lot more that goes into transitioning then just going from male to female or viceversa. On top of all the hormones and possible surgeries you also have the social cost. You have the very real possibility to lose friends and family because of it and even in places where its more accepted, male to female tends to be more celebrated then female to male. So as you get older unless the dysphoria is really bad, you might just put up with it rather than risk the friend group you have since making friends is harder as you get older.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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I learnt Bella Thorne thinks she's Latina because she had arroz con pollo once. Not how it works gringa.
 

SupahEwok

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I learned that garlic and onions are toxic to dogs. Not through experience, thankfully.
 

Palindromemordnilap

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Pull the lever, Kronk!
Wrong leveeeeeeer!

Maybe we are, maybe we aren't, I very much doubt we are considering she seems to be freaking the fuck out about something that in itself isn't a problem. Like she states that 2% of high school students have come out as trans where as before only .1% would. This isn't a problem at all, it reflects our growing acceptance of trans as something people are, before know people might just feel wrong in their bodies for their whole life. Now you could ask the question of "what about the 40-60 year olds, where are all of them coming out as trans?" But thats the thing, it does happen, but its uncommon because being trans is expensive and by that age you generally need surgery to really look like the sex you identify as, but if you are young and get hormones then you might be able to get by with no surgery at all and look like the gender you are more comfortable as.
It may also be a case of visibility. We see more people of a younger generation coming out as transgender because younger people have facebook, instagram, twitter, tiktok...A vast platform of social media to announce who they are. You think a 40-60 year old is on as many as that, if they're on any at all? There might be just as many 40-60 year olds coming out as transgender as there are teenagers its just they're not as easy to keep a track of
 

Gordon_4

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Wrong leveeeeeeer!


It may also be a case of visibility. We see more people of a younger generation coming out as transgender because younger people have facebook, instagram, twitter, tiktok...A vast platform of social media to announce who they are. You think a 40-60 year old is on as many as that, if they're on any at all? There might be just as many 40-60 year olds coming out as transgender as there are teenagers its just they're not as easy to keep a track of
Older people may also not wish to turn their coming out into a semi-public event or spectacle. They just may want to look the most important people in their life in the eye and tell them who they are inside.

Also why do they even have that lever?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
It may also be a case of visibility. We see more people of a younger generation coming out as transgender because younger people have facebook, instagram, twitter, tiktok...A vast platform of social media to announce who they are. You think a 40-60 year old is on as many as that, if they're on any at all? There might be just as many 40-60 year olds coming out as transgender as there are teenagers its just they're not as easy to keep a track of
Exactly, but I woudln't say because of facebook, instagram, twitter, tiktok. I would say more because of motivated reasoning. No one cares what a 40-60 year old does, but if our teenagers are doing something we don't approve of then stop the presses and freak the fuck out. And, the person he was linking is certainly motivated if for no other reason then to sell books.
 

Houseman

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t may also be a case of visibility. We see more people of a younger generation coming out as transgender because younger people have facebook, instagram, twitter, tiktok...A vast platform of social media to announce who they are. You think a 40-60 year old is on as many as that, if they're on any at all? There might be just as many 40-60 year olds coming out as transgender as there are teenagers its just they're not as easy to keep a track
I don't think that the author relied on statistics gathered through social media for her book. That's a horrible way to collect data for reasons that should be obvious.

Also, I learned that you can just self-diagnose as needing hormones, walk into Planned Parenthood or similar places, sign a waiver, and get hormones. Easy as that. Because of "anti-conversion therapy laws" that exist in 20 states it's illegal for any doctor or psychologist to attempt to ask you to reconsider. That's one of the things the lady spoke about on the podcast.
 
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ObsidianJones

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Exactly, but I woudln't say because of facebook, instagram, twitter, tiktok. I would say more because of motivated reasoning. No one cares what a 40-60 year old does, but if our teenagers are doing something we don't approve of then stop the presses and freak the fuck out. And, the person he was linking is certainly motivated if for no other reason then to sell books.
In agreement with this notion.

Add onto this notion simply the fact of Built History and/or Human Variability.

How many people are in relationships they no longer have feelings for their partner, but have a long history?

How many families were built on these 40-60 year old's self-denial?

Some people have the strength to disturb all of that to be true to themselves. Godspeed. Some don't.

Same way that a guy can go up and chat up a woman he thinks is gorgeous, and he was only able to do so because at that same moment, some other guy who also thought she was gorgeous but failed to work up the courage to actually go over to talk to her.

It takes all kinds in this world. You have that into account instead of going "By this logic, we should see Trans people in droves!!"

When have humans ever been logical?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
You only don't think so? Hmm. Maybe you should check
No, I really doubt this is the case. I think she might be abusing numbers or taking the wrong conclusion from them, but there is almost no way shes getting her data from social media.
 

Palindromemordnilap

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That's not how the burden of proof works. The burden is on the person that makes the claim. You claimed that these statistics were gathered through social media. You prove it.

Also, what Worgen said.
The person who made the claim here is you. You brought the video up. You quoted what it said as fact. Apparently without looking into it too much. I'm providing a possible theory for why her data might be skewed. Hell, my original premise hinges on what she says being accurate; that she's right in that we're seeing more of one age group coming out, but thats just because they're a more visible age group as a whole.
So could you maybe not get mad and defensive when we ask for something so simple as fact checking your own sources?
 

Houseman

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The person who made the claim here is you. You brought the video up. You quoted what it said as fact. Apparently without looking into it too much.
Yes, but I didn't claim that the data was gathered through social media. That was all you.

I'm providing a possible theory for why her data might be skewed.
Well unless you can back up your theory with evidence, it stands on equal footing with the theory that her data is skewed because elves tampered with her computer.

So could you maybe not get mad and defensive when we ask for something so simple as fact checking your own sources?
You didn't ask me to fact-check my own source. You asserted that her data is skewed because teenagers are more active on social media. Don't get so mad and defensive when people point out that this is ridiculous.

But you know what? I bought the book. So if you have any other questions or theories you'd like me to double-check, feel free to ask me any questions about it.
 

Palindromemordnilap

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Yes, but I didn't claim that the data was gathered through social media. That was all you.
And where did I do that? Because I seem to recall saying social media was skewing her data, not that it was the sum total of it. Strike one



Well unless you can back up your theory with evidence, it stands on equal footing with the theory that her data is skewed because elves tampered with her computer.
Ah ah ah dude, you've already said burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Thats you. I'm questioning your claim so the burden is on you to prove it, not me to prove it for you. Strike two



You didn't ask me to fact-check my own source. You asserted that her data is skewed because teenagers are more active on social media. Don't get so mad and defensive when people point out that this is ridiculous.
That is in actuality literally what I asked you to do. Almost word for word:

You only don't think so? Hmm. Maybe you should check
Strike three, yer out!


But you know what? I bought the book. So if you have any other questions or theories you'd like me to double-check, feel free to ask me any questions about it.
If you'd had the book this whole time why not cite her sources and show us where she's getting her info?
 

Houseman

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If you'd had the book this whole time why not cite her sources and show us where she's getting her info?
I didn't have the book the whole time, I just got it for Kindle while I was writing that last post.

I'm not responding to the rest of your post.

Edit: The book contains lots of web-accessible citations. I can click on a numbered footnote and be led right to the citation, which is neat. Some books, like the other one I'm reading about Affirmative Action, doesn't do that.
 
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SupahEwok

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I'm reading the Durants' The Story of Civilization from the first book, which among other things covers the history of the Ancient Middle East (as best known when the book was published in 1935ish).

This old scholarship claims that an early Pharaoh of the Middle Kingdom of Egypt by the title of Amenemhet I was conspired against by his close advisors. He later recorded the following advice for his son, when he could come of age:

Hearken to that which I tell thee, that thou mayest be king over the earth and ruler over its countries, and thy prosperity may increase. Harden thy heart against thy underlings. The people obey him whom they hold in fear. . . . Take no brother to thy heart, cherish no friend, keep no intimates — there is no end to them. When thou sleep- est, still be on thy guard, for a man has no people [to defend him] when the evil day approaches. I gave to the beggar; I sustained the orphan; I was gracious to the humble as well as to the mighty—but he who ate of my bounty turned rebel: he to whom I gave my hand turned and smote me [literally " aroused fear therein "].
You can feel the bitterness of betrayal across 4000 years of time, space, and culture.

Granted, this may be apocryphal by the standards of modern scholarship. A quick googling didn't find me supporting evidence for the book's assertions and this particular translation of this text. Whether that means the scholarship is outdated, or if it's just obscure enough that nobody has touched it since the early 1900's, I don't know (the latter is possible when you dig deep enough into the academia for history). But I still find the quotation quite moving, and it's going on my list of favorites.