What is communism?

[The Artificially Prolonged]

Communism (pure Marxism anyway) has always to be been about a truly classless society where there is no upper elite or lower classes, where all members of society use their individual knowledge and expertise to further the needs and advancement of society as a whole and not just the privileged few. There are economic factors to it as well but I'm not up to speed with them.

I never got way some Americans seem to view Communism as the enemy of Democracy, (perhaps A possible hang up over Cold War era media spin on Communism IMHO) as on principle Communism and Democracy seem to pair up quite well together. Though the prejudice is slightly justified as nearly all so call full on Communism governments have been little more than dictatorships.

All in all I find Communism flawed the same way I find other forms of government flawed. Namely any form of government is only as good as the people in the government. And unfortunately people generally, especially in government can be by and large selfish pricks by nature. I don't mean that to be down on people, however it seems like having power does a funny thing to even the nicest people among us. You really need to have a resolve of steel and moral compass as straight as a ruler not to abuse that power to benefit yourself.

 

[Henrik Stavenes]

Communism is another word for the political ideology Marxism which oposed itself to a rather suppresive ang abusive upperclass. Most people have the wrong understanding of communism because they fail to see the historical perspective.
At the most basic it's an utopian ideology, which aspires to serve the people by removing the supresive upperclass and put everyone in the same class of citizens. It considers money and any kind of private property as a corruptive force, that affects the individual to prioritize themselves rather than the social unity.

 

[Simon Pettersson]

I hate having these kind of discussion on a forum because you don´t know what has been said.

Anyway...

Communism was to be the bridge to Socialism. But the human nature got in the way and the proletarian dictatorship didn´t really happen. Instead Communism took the part and they made it another dictatorship.

Socialism was about equality and all that. The state would be a real democracy where everyone got what they deserved and the state would garanty employment. It´s more deeper then that but I don´t have time to go into detail.

On the contrary to what other belive working harder would actually give you more wealth then the others that only did small work. The idea was to give equal payment for equal work. Not equal payment for every work.

As I said a forum isn´t really a good Place to have a discussion in.

 

[SilverUchiha]

snip, again

Well, I see this will just be a round-about argument with neither of us folding or giving in. I still view that human nature of being greedy pricks is a perfectly valid argument. You say it isn't and there there are studies or something to prove this. But until I see said studies, I will not change my stance. So I'd say, at this point, rather than going on forever until we start a flame war and things go to shit, I'm inclined to say we might as well just agree to disagree on the matter.

And I'm well aware that my comparison was not the best I could make, I believe I even noted that. You don't need to bother pointing it out to me when I even made such a disclaimer.

 

[SilverUchiha]

snip, again

Well, I see this will just be a round-about argument with neither of us folding or giving in. I still view that human nature of being greedy pricks is a perfectly valid argument. You say it isn't and there there are studies or something to prove this. But until I see said studies, I will not change my stance. So I'd say, at this point, rather than going on forever until we start a flame war and things go to shit, I'm inclined to say we might as well just agree to disagree on the matter.

And I'm well aware that my comparison was not the best I could make, I believe I even noted that. You don't need to bother pointing it out to me when I even made such a disclaimer.

I cant pretend im not irritated by this.

"Statement."
"Your statement is wrong because heres a good reason."
"Same statement as before, even though its been proven wrong, im just going to take the easy way out and not rethink anything and ignore the subject."
"..."

Rather typical.

Hey, I'm trying to take a high road here and end this argument before it devolves into insults and stupidity. Then here you are mocking my argument when you haven't given proof, but merely said it exists. That'd be like me saying I found a wild pikachu in my backyard and not showing pictures or anything. You didn't prove me wrong. You just said I'm wrong without offering any actual evidence. So I'm not wrong, we're just differing in opinions. And that doesn't give you the excuse to be rude about it. Which, if you ask me, is more typical.

 

[Torrasque]

Lol, I'll read the other replies later. For now, I'll just give you what I think of communism.
Communism is the system of government in which everyone is equal in every way: status, monetary value, etc.
Everyone shares, everyone helps each other.
On paper, it is the best system of government possible, but real people tend to fuck it up.

You'll find that 60 years of American propaganda have painted communism as the most vile thing ever, so most Americans don't even see the merits of communism, they just hear the word, and think of something worse than a terrorist.
Fuck, not even "terrorist" has the same amount of hate behind it, which is saying alot.

And I'm a Canadian btw.
Inb4 "you are already a communist"

 

[SilverUchiha]

snip, again

Well, I see this will just be a round-about argument with neither of us folding or giving in. I still view that human nature of being greedy pricks is a perfectly valid argument. You say it isn't and there there are studies or something to prove this. But until I see said studies, I will not change my stance. So I'd say, at this point, rather than going on forever until we start a flame war and things go to shit, I'm inclined to say we might as well just agree to disagree on the matter.

And I'm well aware that my comparison was not the best I could make, I believe I even noted that. You don't need to bother pointing it out to me when I even made such a disclaimer.

I cant pretend im not irritated by this.

"Statement."
"Your statement is wrong because heres a good reason."
"Same statement as before, even though its been proven wrong, im just going to take the easy way out and not rethink anything and ignore the subject."
"..."

Rather typical.

Hey, I'm trying to take a high road here and end this argument before it devolves into insults and stupidity. Then here you are mocking my argument when you haven't given proof, but merely said it exists. That'd be like me saying I found a wild pikachu in my backyard and not showing pictures or anything. You didn't prove me wrong. You just said I'm wrong without offering any actual evidence. So I'm not wrong, we're just differing in opinions. And that doesn't give you the excuse to be rude about it. Which, if you ask me, is more typical.

3 people in this thread have quoted me and agreed.

2 of these people grew up in the USSR, the other has immediate family that lived during those times. That is the best proof I can provide on a web forum, two people who have first hand experience are backing my arguments. What do you want me to do, get my in own private get, pick you up and take you to the Czech Republic so you can talk to a few old people? Come on dude.

This was not heading anywhere near insults or arguments, until you took it there. Its once again the typical mindset. You have your own little box with your own poorly thought out believes and stupid arguments, and when someone comes along and shows you they are wrong you shut the lid instead of actually THINKING about a challenging subject for a change. Stay in there, by all means, but dont even bother giving your opinion in threads like these, its invalid and worthless.

When did I fling insults? Furthermore, are you talking about proof about my poor idea of a comparison or on the main topic about communism? Because it sounds more like you've only gotten proof on the former. The proof I ask is that study you mentioned in an earlier post that refutes my initial (and still) only argument. If anything, you misread or misunderstood what I'm trying to say. So would you mind taking a step back and chilling out for a moment before responding with something that merely belittles my opinions. I'm not asking for you to produce me a leprochaun in favor communism or Czechs or anything like that. I'm merely asking for a link or something of the like that shows me the study that you mentioned that proved my human nature point wrong. If you can't do that, argument ends with no clear winner in my eyes because neither of us will budge from our positions. We done yet?

 

[nepheleim]

A quick check of Wikipedia, or asking a political science student, or economics student worth his salt, would reveal that Communism is an economic system that was taken for a political system, which is why Communism has always failed. Communism is the system wherein all means of production are centrally controlled, which is opposite a free market in which collusion is supposed to be disadvantageous (that's a topic for another page).

Communism as a political theory follows the economic theory in controlling supply, but also attempts to control demand through "equalization" of the population. I'm sure you can see where the problem lies.

 

[ZydrateDealer]

I see you're point but what I meant is if you're collecting taxes from everyone and distributing the country's collective wealth accordingly then those who have no money are a priority.

This is equivalent to what I said, it doesn't matter if its a government or all people in a giant group no matter what, it boils down to "people earning money" loosing their right to keep them, and "people not earning money" gains a right to take them.

Sure I was ambiguous about where the funding would come from but only because I thought that TAXES would have been obvious. Isn't it a bit weird that Capitalists will tell you how communism will bleed you dry? Considering how the top Capitalists don't pay taxes and seem to be controlling the companies that take your money on a regular basis it's safe to say that you might be being misinformed.

Two things: First of big companies manipulation governments are not a capitalist system and is to the benefit of none except the companies and the politicians. For instance: for smaller businesses and up starts one of the biggest cost is servicing government regulation, for a big company servicing regulations is not that big a cost to them, so by advocating more regulations they can ensure competition is removed.

Secondly
Companies cannot take your money, they can only try to convince you to buy their products. The idea is behind freedom is that you are free to make choices of our own and you can thus choose whether or not you want to buy a product.

Are there better ideas out there than communism? Well yeah because it's really hard to implement a communist government. Why's it hard...humans are corruptible; but there are still communists or to give them the name they use today out of fear of being hated Liberals, and they'll always keep fighting for you're rights no matter how many times they're screwed over by someone who wants are bigger paycheck.

I Keep hearing this arguments that the problem with communism is that humans are greedy and if they would just stop being that then all would be better. Basically it doesn't work that way, all choses humans make are swayed by two factors greed and fear.

For instance if you see a girl you like your greed motivates you to get her, but your fear stops you from looking like a fool. So if you removed greed then no one would get any girls and then the race would become extinct.

Also I also keep hearing people say that the 2008 financial crisis was caused by greed running ramped. This statement is false as it was, all fear being removed by the FED(an arm of the government) lowering interest rates to the lowest they've been in the last 80 years, ensuring everyone could take out huge loans.

Greed and fear huh...it's not either of those things when I give stuff away or help someone out. Human beings are motivated to good, the society we live in twists them to be greedy fearful fucks. I never mentioned the 2008 financial crisis but then I guess you're allowed to go off topic; so then forgive me for saying that greed and fear don't motivate us when it comes to sex my dear. The human race wouldn't go extinct if we were less greedy! That's a retarded notion and undermines your other arguments when people examine them.
Also I'm slightly confused as to why you seem to hate the idea of taxes being used for the benefit of your fellow man. Or is it that you don't want to be taxed? Sure that could work but there's a big problem not everyone can work and those that can might not get jobs...how in the hell are they supposed to survive in your tax free utopia? Never mind thankfully the decision isn't up to you or I and we get to keep paying our taxes and a tiny fraction of that money does make it to those in need, who are quite often stigmatized by arseholes like you who call them lazy money grabbing sods who should get a job and stop 'stealing' your hard earned money that you'll only blow on novelties like electricity and booze, but hey it's entirely their fault and we shouldn't do a damned thing to help them right? According to some 'misanthropes' nope; according to other misanthropes this is the kind of thinking that leads them to despair for their hate filled race of shits who run around screwing each other over and acting like arseholes and saying things like don't give the homeless guy your spare change spit in his face and kick him in his thieving groin for having the sheer audacity to beg for help from another human being.

Also true a company can't go in your wallet and take your money, but they can charge hidden costs and manufacture faulty products that only they can replace for a moderate fee of course; and yes they can also strong arm small businesses out of competition so on that at the very least we are agreed. Sure big companies don't have to be bad but in a cut throat world they often are.

 

[FrankWilliams]

I think communism looks nice on paper, but I don't think it would work in real life. The organizational issues alone of making sure everyone all across the country gets what they need and stays equal is crazy. Also, I don't know what the motivation to work hard and improve yourself/community/country is when everything you need is provided for you regardless of what job you perform.

 

[Waffle_Man]

Communism is a system in which the means of production are free for use by everyone.

As far as I know, there has never been a single country that has put communism into practice.

 

[Torrasque]

Communism is a system in which the means of production are free for use by everyone.

As far as I know, there has never been a single country that has put communism into practice.

There have been several that have started using Communism at first - true communism mind you - but then it changed into something else. China, Cuba, and the USSR all started as pure Communist states, but changed into something else.
The truly unfortunate thing about communism in practice, is that people need to be told how to do communism right. This is where the totalitarianism comes into play, which is almost always a bad form of government.
True Communism has everyone equal, so true Communism cannot exist with a single leader that regulates people and tells them what to do, that would be something else. Hell, true Communism has no leaders, everyone just does it.

Cuba has been rather successful in staying close to true Communism, but even it has its failings.
The USSR in it's infant stages, was as close to true Communism that has been seen in history, but we all know how that went.

What I find truly unfortunate, is that most people don't understand the real idea of Communism, they just understand the government part, the totalitarian part, which is not even a part of Communism at all. Totalitarianism is as much a part of Communism, as Democracy is a part of Capitalism. While they may work together effectively in the right circumstances, they are completely different ideas altogether.

 

[mrhateful]

Greed and fear huh...it's not either of those things when I give stuff away or help someone out. Human beings are motivated to good, the society we live in twists them to be greedy fearful fucks.

I never mentioned the 2008 financial crisis but then I guess you're allowed to go off topic; so then forgive me for saying that greed and fear don't motivate us when it comes to sex my dear. The human race wouldn't go extinct if we were less greedy! That's a retarded notion and undermines your other arguments when people examine them.

The greed I mentioned can represent anything you want, in this case the greed represent the need to feel better about yourself, telling everyone about how great a person you are, giving money to a needy person. Not to take anything away from that of cause I don't argue giving money to someone who truly needs it, is bad, I argue that people shouldn't be forced to give his/her money(which is stealing) as I believe people should be free to choose for themselves.

Also I'm slightly confused as to why you seem to hate the idea of taxes being used for the benefit of your fellow man. Or is it that you don't want to be taxed? Sure that could work but there's a big problem not everyone can work and those that can might not get jobs...how in the hell are they supposed to survive in your tax free utopia?

I never spoke against taxes, I spoke against stealing no matter the form. Of cause in a society where every man and woman has equal rights there needs to be a government that taxes to provide services that enforces those right, Police, jury and a military. The idea is that you need rule of law not rule of man since man can be corrupted.

Never mind thankfully the decision isn't up to you or I

USA when they were libertarians: riches country in the world.
USA now as socialists: most indebted country in the world on verge of bankruptcy.

errrmm yes totally agree with you.

and we get to keep paying our taxes and a tiny fraction of that money does make it to those in need, who are quite often stigmatized by arseholes like you who call them lazy money grabbing sods who should get a job and stop 'stealing' your hard earned money that you'll only blow on novelties like electricity and booze, but hey it's entirely their fault and we shouldn't do a damned thing to help them right? According to some 'misanthropes' nope; according to other misanthropes this is the kind of thinking that leads them to despair for their hate filled race of shits who run around screwing each other over and acting like arseholes and saying things like don't give the homeless guy your spare change spit in his face and kick him in his thieving groin for having the sheer audacity to beg for help from another human being.

I don't know if I'd call them lazy as they are demotivated from working by a government that provides all their needs, however I am far more focused on the percentage of people who work all day as slaves for those that has the government steal from them.

Also true a company can't go in your wallet and take your money, but they can charge hidden costs and manufacture faulty products that only they can replace for a moderate fee of course; and yes they can also strong arm small businesses out of competition so on that at the very least we are agreed. Sure big companies don't have to be bad but in a cut throat world they often are.

Again those extra charge are when you freely choose to buy. However a lot of those things you mentioned stems from a lack of competition because of the reasons I stated in my post. As these companies are large enough to survive the regulations meaning new upstarts won't occur and thus customers are forced to deal with them.

 

[oktalist]

There is so much disagreement and misinformation about communism and socialism (which I say are the same thing) it becomes pointless to argue their meanings, but to join in the discussion I will have to offer up my definition:

All the resources of the world owned by all the population of the world in common. No person or entity can stake a claim to a particular resource. (State ownership is not common ownership. The state is a private entity having no place in socialism.)
Democratic control of decision making process in all socio-economic issues, chiefly the organisation of production and distribution, with everyone having a right to participate in this process. There is no-one who has any more of a say than any other person.
No wages, no money, no trade, no barter, no buying, no selling.
Production for use instead of for profit.
All work to be voluntary.
Free access for all to the goods and services produced. (Social programmes alone are not socialism.)

I think that as long as there is money, there will be market forces pulling us towards this inevitable collapse, the jaws of which we currently find ourselves in. You cannot get to socialism by a process of small changes that "look like" socialism: welfare, healthcare, etc. because market forces will always keep us stuck in capitalism.

Its a system that will never work because most people are to stupid to see that it could work.

Pretty much this. But I'd replace "stupid" with "uneducated".

Would you care to explain this? As of my understanding the monopolization of power by the vanguard party always results in an autocracy as the absence of an economic incentive to perform well leads to shortages which the government is unable to respond to by other means than violence and terror.

Which is why you can't get to communism by a vanguard. It has to involve everyone. Or at least the majority of people.

Communism, as I understand it, is an on paper great idea. The working class is the only class, as who does not contribute to the society as a whole does not get contribution from society.

Under capitalism there are two classes. Under communism there are zero classes. In communism, all work is voluntary. In capitalism, we must work or die.

Communism is the idea of ultimate equality set forth by Marx's Utopia.

Utopia was written by Thomas More.

If you want a good intellectual view of communism, I refer you to Animal Farm. This 20th century satire kind of spells out how communism is, and where the road can easily turn bad, great read.

Keep in mind that its author, George Orwell, was a socialist and remained a socialist throughout his life. The point of Animal Farm was that communism doesn't work unless everyone can understand it; Orwell said as much in the preface to the second edition.

The Socialist Party of Great Britain said less than a year after the Russian revolution that communism there would never work because it didn't have majority support.

 

[oktalist]

Also the early Christians were commies:

"All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." Acts 2:44

"There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." Acts 4:34

Later in Acts two land-owners who refuse to give up all the proceeds of the sale of their land are struck dead by God.

 

[Sandernista]

Never mind thankfully the decision isn't up to you or I

USA when they were libertarians: riches country in the world.
USA now as socialists: Poorest country in the world on verge of bankruptcy.

errrmm yes totally agree with you.

Rut?

No seriously, what the hell?

Where are you getting that idea?

 

[Twilight_guy]

A nice system that makes everyone equal. It will never work int he real world because people are crap.

I don't know how many people are actually stupid enough to think Communism == evil and how many people play it for laughs though.

 

[mrhateful]

Never mind thankfully the decision isn't up to you or I

USA when they were libertarians: riches country in the world.
USA now as socialists: Poorest country in the world on verge of bankruptcy.

errrmm yes totally agree with you.

Rut?

No seriously, what the hell?

Where are you getting that idea?

sorry my mistake changed it to indebted. Don't know why I wrote poorest ><