What is it with Elder Scrolls games?

[starbear]

Also to the people that said that if I had done even a little bit of research I would have known that I wouldn't like Skyrim before I bought it. You guys can get over yourselves. Seriously. I'm glad you like Skyrim, but saying that I shouldn't have looked into a game so stupidly popular because I should have known I wouldn't like the game is just asinine. Sorry if I upset your little Skyrim bubble, but I simply could not overlook the absolutely poor haphazard construction of a game that is supposed to be so beloved and fantastic.

You want us to "get over ourselves" for pointing out the bleeding obvious?

You bought the game based on its popularity (and not much else) and ended up not liking it. Who is to blame for that?

Do you expect Bethesda to pre-emptively know what you like and create a game just for you?

Do you expect the millions of Skyrim fans to stop being fans so that you don't make another irrational buying decision?

Plenty of people like the game as is. They don't think that the game is a poor haphazard construction of a game. They do love the game and they do think its fantastic. You complain about people mistaking opinion for fact: and here you are telling other people that their opinions are objectively wrong.

I think you are telling the wrong people to "get over it." You are welcome to your own opinions: but you are not welcome to tell me that my opinion is incorrect.

 

[sageoftruth]

That's my point. He's the one saying that it's factually garbage. I'm saying that it's garbage to him, yes; however, that doesn't objectively make it garbage... and that's a fact.

Again, you seem to misunderstand what we're saying. The OP implied that the game - regardless of how others view it - is garbage.

Opinions are opinions man. The game is a hot stinky turd. Do I really have to say, "In my honest opinion....Fuck this game. Fuck it right in it's sweaty meat hole." for you to understand it is just my opinion? I really shouldn't. So when I say the game is garbage, I mean that in my eyes the game is shit. Skyrim, to me, has absolutely ZERO redeeming qualities to it.

I'm afraid that's how language works. There's a number of ways to say it. You can say "I'm not impressed", or "I don't see any appeal", or "It's garbage in my eyes". The "I" is the important part there. It helps in a way too, since it makes you think carefully about how the game affected you. Otherwise, it just comes with the unspoken assumption that you see it as fact. If you want to keep reviewing games and don't want to become the next Moviebob, you'll want to start getting on that.

Wow, are you serious? There's no such thing as an objective rating for any kind of art, thus every review of any game or anything ever said concerning a game is an opinion. You don't have to state that every feeling you have about a game is your opinion because you literally can't state as a "fact" anything about game (outside of technical specs). Stating "I [this]" or "I [that]" doesn't do anything. You think people wouldn't have gotten butthurt over Jim Sterling's Zelda review if he just put IMO before or after HIS score? If someone does think a game is garbage, they do see it as a fact; a personal fact, which is an opinion.

Moviebob actually makes money on his reviews... He must be doing something right. I still get more out of his movie reviews than any reviewer on Youtube whether I agree or disagree with his analysis. By the way, my opinion on Moviebob is an opinion and I'm not in any way saying Moviebob is factually the best movie reviewer on Youtube just in case if some people didn't get that.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, you'd be surprised how many people don't when it comes to games and quality. I learned that it's much easier to get through to people when my words don't immediately put them on the defensive. Unless you're ready to repost your argument at least 80% of the times that you share your opinion, get ready fight people every time you decide to talk about your opinions. Expecting them to just learn that fact on their own will only lead to disappointment. I mean, many will learn eventually, but many more will replace them.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I completely agree. Unfortunately, you'd be surprised how many people don't when it comes to games and quality. I learned that it's much easier to get through to people when my words don't immediately put them on the defensive. Unless you're ready to repost your argument at least 80% of the times that you share your opinion, get ready fight people every time you decide to talk about your opinions. Expecting them to just learn that fact on their own will only lead to disappointment. I mean, many will learn eventually, but many more will replace them.

My guess would be because of how close reviewer scores are to each other that people feel games are somehow objectively good/bad. Whereas with movies even when a film like the new Spiderman is received extremely well with a 93% fresh rating that means that 7% of critics didn't like the movie. Imagine what would happen if 7% of game reviewers put out a negative review for Skyrim, GTAV, Zelda BotW, etc. Any work of art getting an average score in the 90s is just ridiculous IMO.

 

[brucethemoose]

I actually don't read the books (bar The Lusty Argonian Maid), I was talking about the middle ground: the short notes, terminal entries, things scribbled on the wall, posed corpses etc. Things that tell a story about where you are at that exact moment beyond what a quest NPC will, not so much the deep lore that you could read anywhere.

I guess alot of fans do pay attention to that stuff.

Yeah, especially with fallout, whenever I see a "which is your favourite?" thread I find people praising the environmental design and environmental storytelling of Bethesda (and to an extent Obsidian, although people tend to concentrate on their actual storytelling), their detailed worldbuilding is a big draw for a lot of fans as far as I can tell.

Oh god FO3 vs NV... Yeah, I think Obsidian's writing is wildly superior, but Bethesda still nails the little environmental bits better than Obsidian (though not by much).


Which is why I feel conflicted when people say Skyrim is a steaming pile of crap.

The engine DEFINITELY is. The gameplay and main quest writing kind of is. Side quests are spotty... But those little stories built into the environment are great, especially when combined with the art and the music.


The game is good at certain things and really bad at others, just like everything. The problem with Skyrim is that it advertises itself as being good in areas it's not so good in.

 

[Laughing Man]

I don't get it guys...

Well my expectation of greatness came from having played Oblivion. I expected to start off as a small cog in a vast world and by the end of it be know as a warrior, leader, ruler of huge renown while having gone through a series of epic quests and events. That's what happened to me in Oblivion and once I completed Skyrim I was very disappointed. The biggest being that the guild and primary quests felt like nothing, not grand schemes put together ending with an epic quest that gifts you with a useful and amazing item (anyone whos played the thieves guild quest line in Oblivion knows what I mean) the quest lines felt weak, no grand plan or amazing quest no decent or worthwhile loot and painfully short.

Gotta say....this game is kind of garbage. I mean mostly garbage. So after breaking free from my execution the game offers me a chance to flee the dragon attack...

Someone may have to correct me but I believe all the games start out with you as a criminal who then gets free and set upon what could be called a quest for redemption. The nature of the crimes are never told to you so yeah it may seem stupid but then again you could have been getting your head cut off for stealing bread which by itself is kinda stupid.

[quote[So with my might sword I began to roam around. Since I don't know shit about TES I figured I'd follow the main story for a few quests to see what the deal is. I make my way through a dungeon, and instant start to hate the combat. First person melee combat is just weird, and it is even weirder when...[/quote]

The combat in TES games has always been pretty poor, I suspect a lot of that, in fact alot of the games flaws come down to the Game engine, which was frankly well past it when Skyrim cme out and is still being used in games as recent as FO4. One key fact is that firstly you can;t dual action. Try it take a swing and try opening a menu, you can't you have to complete whatever you are doing before you can then do your next move and while this may be more realistic in terms of actual real world combat the weight, delivery and the fact that combat is so basic must means it's annoying. Dying Light does melee combat so much better. You can go third person but I've never tried that maybe that would help?

Magic, if you're willing to put the effort in it can be a powerful combat form but most people tend to either limit it to secondary uses, light, healing, buff, debuffs or simply not using it at all. The best form of combat I found is stealth and bow and arrow.

So an hour into the game you kill a dragon, not the dragon that attacked your execution, just another dragon. Apparently there are a shit ton of dragons in Skyrim. Also when I kill a dragon I absorb it's....soul? I guess. I certainly don't absorb any power.

Dragon shouts are the power you absorb and they are an actual fairly useful form of magic.

It all just seems boring and not very well thought out. Okay so Elder Scrolls games aren't about the main story, but rather about the mini adventures you can find when you just run in a direction...

Oh I dunno, the main quests in Oblivion were pretty damn good Skyrim suffers in a number of ways. Firstly Oblivion had a certain level of sillyness going on in the background, you could find silly little things going on, daft little quests and odd characters, Skyrim suffers by being so bland and grim and gritty it just feels like sillyness and fun isn't meant to be found in this harsh bitter wilderness. It also suffers from the fact that the main quests are too dull, too short and too lacking in any feeling of epic questing. The game got sold on the fact that even if you completed the main guild quest you could continue to do quests because the game had a whole new procedural quest generation system. The reality was that these quests were mostly boring, storyless fetch and kill quests and the developers spent so much time getting this to work that they forgot to make the plotted quests any fun.

So the story is nonsense, the world is big but pointless, the combat is weak, so why do people love this game? What am I missing?

Mods, it's all about the mods but the game itself I played through once and never went back, I certainly don;t love Skyrim and I suspect the game hasn't aged very well, Oblivion on the other hand I do love and have played through modded and un modded a dozen times

Is skyrim just a shitty Elder Scrolls game?

Can't really say, what I can say is that it ain't a patch on Oblivion I suspect that with mods and a bit of time you could get Oblivion in to a graphical state that is close to Skyrim.

 

[sageoftruth]

I completely agree. Unfortunately, you'd be surprised how many people don't when it comes to games and quality. I learned that it's much easier to get through to people when my words don't immediately put them on the defensive. Unless you're ready to repost your argument at least 80% of the times that you share your opinion, get ready fight people every time you decide to talk about your opinions. Expecting them to just learn that fact on their own will only lead to disappointment. I mean, many will learn eventually, but many more will replace them.

My guess would be because of how close reviewer scores are to each other that people feel games are somehow objectively good/bad. Whereas with movies even when a film like the new Spiderman is received extremely well with a 93% fresh rating that means that 7% of critics didn't like the movie. Imagine what would happen if 7% of game reviewers put out a negative review for Skyrim, GTAV, Zelda BotW, etc. Any work of art getting an average score in the 90s is just ridiculous IMO.

Ah yes, review scores. You've got a point there. Review scores can be such a hindrance when it comes to addressing the subjective nature of games. I've always preferred systems that are less about quantity, such as a simple summary statement, or Projared's funny "Pineapple/10" rating system that was more about pointing out the game's most notable qualities.

Anyway I have a feeling we're starting to seriously derail this thread, so we should probably end this discussion here.

 

[Kerg3927]

So my answer is: Skyrim is as popular as it is because of the pre-launch hype and there is still lots of hype for the damn game.

It's way more than that. According to Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games], it's the 10th best-selling video game in the history of video games. Hype doesn't explain that. Unsubstantiated hype fizzles out at some point, usually followed by a strong backlash (see Dragon Age: Inquisition). There are apparently millions and millions of people who really do love Skyrim.

So the story is nonsense, the world is big but pointless, the combat is weak, so why do people love this game? What am I missing?

It's for the people who like the "do your own shit" PnP RPGs and exploring a world.

Fuck story, I never like what anyone else writes anyway. I even modded out the start of Skyrim because I didn't want to be stuck with what little story they had put in.

If exploring is it's own reward for you then a big world isn't pointless.

Yeah, the hand to hand combat is shit. Stealth and sniping all the way.

Mods.

I think it's for either: 1) casuals who just like to piddle around, do random quests, explore, and look at scenery, i.e. people looking for a mindless time waster; or 2) really serious role-players who just need a sandbox world and can make up their own story in their head and play along.

I didn't get it, either. I played it about a week, and was like WHAT... THE... F*CK... this game is BORING. How is it so popular? It's a Scandinavian hiking simulator.

But what I've learned since then is that I hate massive open world games. I am an OCD completionist, so exploring every inch of a massive map and doing every quest when there are hundreds, most of them of the fetch variety... it just leads to agonizing tedium and boredom for me. Too much freedom is a bad thing for some people. I like more linear RPG's with an strong, engaging main story, and that is the opposite of Skyrim.

Lol it's odd because I think that's what I really enjoy about Skyrim the most. Hiking around and enjoying the scenery, and of course the exploration. I'm that odd gamer I suppose lol.

Nothing wrong with that. Just not my type of game. I know that now. And slogging through Dragon Age: Inquisition and the Witcher 3 confirmed it. I just need to avoid massive open world games. If I see the word "exploration" or any bragging about world size in the marketing, I need to run the other way.

 

[Vassassell]

Basically the draw is freedom. You can go whenever you want, do whatever you want, be a leader of most polar opposite factions. It's kinda like GTA but pedestrians actually matter and their lore is quite interesting. But the coolest thing about Skyrim is just walking around listening to Jeremy Soul's music.

Previous game, Oblivion, had more limiting stat system preventing you from being jack of all trades, master of all trades, but quest writing was better.

But the real gem is Morrowind, cause this one is actual RPG.

If you want to make Skyrim into real RPG - where enemies leves would be static, you will have a more strict class, and combat would be fast and deadly - go for Requiem mod.

 

[Mad World]

Opinions are opinions man.

Wouldn't kill you to add in a "In my opinion..."

Oh, come on, you don't have to put IMO before/after everything you say that's an opinion, it's assumed. It's not like the TC is said "Skyrim is garbage and anyone that loves the game are idiots" or something along those lines.

You kinda do. Otherwise, you come off as conceited.

 

[CritialGaming]

I'll be honest: vanilla Skyrim hasn't aged well at all. Still better than Oblivion, but in light of recent RPGs, especially Witcher 3, its luster has long since faded. In its prime Skyrim was the king of open world RPGs: the world was huge, the graphics massively improved, the mechanics massively improved, there was so much to do and see. Compared to Witcher 3 Skyrim still has a far wider variety of playstyles.

But since then other games have done nearly everything better. Dark Souls became the new king of melee combat. Witcher 3 blew the storytelling and draw distance out of the water. Dungeon Crawlers do the loot gathering better. The Nordic tundra aesthetic was dull even upon release, and games like Darkest Dungeon have since then done far more interesting visual aesthetics.

The one thing Bethesda RPGs still have over nearly every other game is the modding community, which makes their games last far far longer than any DLC could ever hope for. Skyrim's base mechanics give a solid enough base that the game can be made enjoyable again and again with the use of rebalancing, new armors, spells and weapons, graphics improvements etc. etc. I'd compare the Bethesda RPG model to a coloring book: you can appreciate the black and white artwork as it is, but coloring it in will make it immensely more appealing.

Dark Souls came out the same year as Skyrim though, which doesn't leave much room for Skyrim's prime lol. I seem to recall the two sharing several nomination categories too.

I think pretty much any Bethesda game is a prime example of the quantity over quality mantra. Sure there is a ton of content, but most of the best use and presentation of said content is created by modders. In fact, I personally think trying out various mods are the only way I'd get much lasting enjoyment out of these games.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You kinda do. Otherwise, you come off as conceited.

Only to people that I would consider to be "fragile" individuals that need their "safe spaces".

 

[Kyrian007]

I've played through Skyrim 7-8 times, using different characters, on the PS3, so no mods for me. That first playthrough was about playing it as I'd play other games. It was only later that I really grasped the 'sandbox' concept. After the first time, my various characters have all stared as stealth archers, my favorite way to play. Each then branches out from there as I wrote a backstory for each character, his history, ethics and drives. Doing the same quest or dungeon has a diffferent meaning when seen through a different character's eyes.

For example, two of my favorite playthroughs look like this: a good guy, dedicated to Justice, joins the Companions and becomes a werewolf and the Mage's College to study Destruction Magic and the conjugation of elemental demons for backup, using his bow and daggers less as his power grows. He follows the main quest to save the world, joins the Dawnguard,destroys the Dark Brotherhood and travels Skyrim fighting vampire and dragons and generally doing good.

Another character is angry, alienated, and makes his living stealing. He gets infected with vampirism, joins the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood, learns how to control minds and raise the dead at the Mage's college, and sides with the vampires in Dawnguard. He also uses his bow and daggers less and less as his power grows. Eventually he's cleared my entire re dungeons without enemies ever knowing he was there. He's never heard of the Dragonborn.

I love the game for giving me the freedom to have created and played these characters, and I accept the responsibility for making my own fun. There was a point where my playtime in Skyrim matched every other game I've played combined. I didn't put in all those hours because of 'hype,' and neither are all the others who've put in so many hours.

See, that is how I see that Skyrim was meant to be played. It provides the background, the props and you decide which direction you want to go with it.

That is exactly how to get the most out of Skyrim. I have 6 or 7 Skyrim characters, and each time through it was a completely different experience and story. With very few exceptions each of my characters could exist in the SAME world of Skyrim since in only a few instances did one follow a path that any of the others already had. And I preferred Skyrim's character creation system to Morrowind and Oblivion because it replaced the concept of character creation with character development... and that makes way more sense and creates more difference in play style and greater connection to the character. Rather than just killing x mob gives you a level up and suddenly you pick locks better, in Skyrim you get better at picking locks BY PICKING LOCKS. Characters are developed, not min-maxed from a FAQ.

 

[brucethemoose]

I've played through Skyrim 7-8 times, using different characters, on the PS3, so no mods for me. That first playthrough was about playing it as I'd play other games. It was only later that I really grasped the 'sandbox' concept. After the first time, my various characters have all stared as stealth archers, my favorite way to play. Each then branches out from there as I wrote a backstory for each character, his history, ethics and drives. Doing the same quest or dungeon has a diffferent meaning when seen through a different character's eyes.

For example, two of my favorite playthroughs look like this: a good guy, dedicated to Justice, joins the Companions and becomes a werewolf and the Mage's College to study Destruction Magic and the conjugation of elemental demons for backup, using his bow and daggers less as his power grows. He follows the main quest to save the world, joins the Dawnguard,destroys the Dark Brotherhood and travels Skyrim fighting vampire and dragons and generally doing good.

Another character is angry, alienated, and makes his living stealing. He gets infected with vampirism, joins the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood, learns how to control minds and raise the dead at the Mage's college, and sides with the vampires in Dawnguard. He also uses his bow and daggers less and less as his power grows. Eventually he's cleared my entire re dungeons without enemies ever knowing he was there. He's never heard of the Dragonborn.

I love the game for giving me the freedom to have created and played these characters, and I accept the responsibility for making my own fun. There was a point where my playtime in Skyrim matched every other game I've played combined. I didn't put in all those hours because of 'hype,' and neither are all the others who've put in so many hours.

See, that is how I see that Skyrim was meant to be played. It provides the background, the props and you decide which direction you want to go with it.

That is exactly how to get the most out of Skyrim. I have 6 or 7 Skyrim characters, and each time through it was a completely different experience and story. With very few exceptions each of my characters could exist in the SAME world of Skyrim since in only a few instances did one follow a path that any of the others already had. And I preferred Skyrim's character creation system to Morrowind and Oblivion because it replaced the concept of character creation with character development... and that makes way more sense and creates more difference in play style and greater connection to the character. Rather than just killing x mob gives you a level up and suddenly you pick locks better, in Skyrim you get better at picking locks BY PICKING LOCKS. Characters are developed, not min-maxed from a FAQ.

All this ^

Bethesda could be slipping away from that though, and I'm not talking about the "series rot" people have been complaining about since Oblivion.

FO4 gave us a more "set" character. His/her motivations, dialogue etc. are pretty much set in stone from the beginning. Yes you can branch out by favoring a faction or picking good/evil dialogue, but overall everything is more scripted and there's much less room to branch out as a character.


That's not ALL bad. It does make the game feel a bit more like a Bioware RPG... But I think it'll be a problem going forward, especially if BGS doesn't pick up some good writers. If there gonna lock us to a certain path, it HAS to be a good one.


We'll see with their new IP, I suppose.

 

[Mad World]

You kinda do. Otherwise, you come off as conceited.

Only to people that I would consider to be "fragile" individuals that need their "safe spaces".

No - I'm totally against the whole "safe space" thing; I think that it's retarded. Political correctness in general can screw off. It's just that you don't know how to properly convey an opinion.

I'll let you in on a secret: if you say, "X or y is garbage," you'll understandably be met with backlash. So either don't do it that way or don't get your jimmies in a rustle when people like me point out the mistake.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

No - I'm totally against the whole "safe space" thing; I think that it's retarded. Political correctness in general can screw off. It's just that you don't know how to properly convey an opinion.

I'll let you in on a secret: if you say, "X or y is garbage," you'll understandably be met with backlash. So either don't do it that way or don't get your jimmies in a rustle when people like me point out the mistake.

I was responding to people upset about the TC's original post. I didn't call the game garbage. Hell, I haven't even played a single Elder Scrolls game, I played a good chunk of FO3 and knew just from that I didn't like Bethesda games. If you get upset about someone not liking a game/movie/book/music/food/etc that you like, then you got some issues.

 

[Mad World]

I was responding to people upset about the TC's original post. I didn't call the game garbage. Hell, I haven't even played a single Elder Scrolls game, I played a good chunk of FO3 and knew just from that I didn't like Bethesda games. If you get upset about someone not liking a game/movie/book/music/food/etc that you like, then you got some issues.

Man, you are just not getting this. You debated people when they displayed a negative attitude toward the OP for referring to the game as objectively garbage; I'm pointing out that you're wrong to do so. I am not upset at anyone for not liking something that I like, and I'm pretty sure that you know that. Not sure if you're attempting to save face or what, but you're not making much sense. To elaborate (because you clearly need it), I understand that the OP does not like Skyrim; that's totally fine. He has a right not to like it and consider it garbage. What he should do, though, is word his opinion as just that: an opinion.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Man, you are just not getting this. You debated people when they displayed a negative attitude toward the OP for referring to the game as objectively garbage; I'm pointing out that you're wrong to do so. I am not upset at anyone for not liking something that I like, and I'm pretty sure that you know that. Not sure if you're attempting to save face or what, but you're not making much sense. To elaborate (because you clearly need it), I understand that the OP does not like Skyrim; that's totally fine. He has a right not to like it and consider it garbage. What he should do, though, is word his opinion as just that: an opinion.

You said I didn't know how to convey an opinion, which is what I responded to, you know, your response. I totally get it. Whatever the TC or anyone said about the game is an opinion unless they literally go out of their way trying to do some kind of proof to somehow prove the game is factually bad. That did not happen here, thus it was an opinion. How much you like/dislike a game can't not be an opinion, why would anyone assume someone would be trying to say a game is objectively bad unless they go to such aforementioned extremes? Reviews of anything are written like they are facts without IMOs after everything or "I think this..." because you know it's that person's review and to them they are facts, personal facts, which are opinions.

 

[Mad World]

You said I didn't know how to convey an opinion, which is what I responded to, you know, your response. I totally get it. Whatever the TC or anyone said about the game is an opinion unless they literally go out of their way trying to do some kind of proof to somehow prove the game is factually bad. That did not happen here, thus it was an opinion. How much you like/dislike a game can't not be an opinion, why would anyone assume someone would be trying to say a game is objectively bad unless they go to such aforementioned extremes? Reviews of anything are written like they are facts without IMOs after everything or "I think this..." because you know it's that person's review and to them they are facts, personal facts, which are opinions.

Yes - due to your stance on the subject at hand, you - like the OP - obviously don't understand how to convey an opinion. I don't see the confusion; people always react negatively to people saying, "X or y is garbage." Evidence can be seen in this thread (where at least one other pointed out the OP's mistake).

Skyrim is a popular game. It's obvious that if someone says, "Skyrim is garbage," people are gonna have something to say back to that. The normal thing to do is to write something like, "I think that Skyrim is garbage." It's not rocket science.

 

[jklinders]

They are not my cuppa tea either.

For Elder Scrolls games, the story is typically the weakest link. They do the open world sandbox thing really well and the story is just good enough to count as a dead skin of an animal to lay over it. But combat is only slightly better. RNG based combat in first person is just weird to me. That Skyrim does it better than any other iteration of the game just means it's the least stinky pile of shit. there is no weight like the OP said. You don't feel the blows hitting you or feel the weight of the return strike.

Progression is always all manner of fucked up. Bethsoft practically begs you to exploit it's levelling system to make a god character. My wife is an Elder Scrolls fanatic and has alchemy levelled to the point where a single arrow can pretty much one shot a god. Not using these exploits gimps you.


People like them because they are easy to plant yourself into for immersion. Also, they are uniquely easily modded. The warts are too much for me to be honest.