What is so great about Anime?

[Magmabear]

Okay, this has been going on for about 10 pages and I'm surprised nobody has made any progress. Apparently nobody explained it well enough that there are different genres in anime just like in any other medium. You have your romance anime, you have your action anime, you got your comedy anime, and hell, you even have your family friendly anime.

I could go on and on with a huge wall of text (I'm sure I probably will) explaining how there are differing types of genres in anime and to then compare American animation and Japanese animation and how, just like in Japan, there are differing types of genres in American animation. Would I say that Disney's Beauty and the Beast is the same genre as "Stewie Griffin: The Untold Story"? Hell no. Same with "Spirited Away" and "Akira" Same genre? Both movies couldn't be any more different. The only commonalities that they share are that:

1. They are movies
2. They are animated

The same can be said about paintings. Compare the "Mona Lisa" to "The Persistence of Memory"
Same with music. Compare Country with R&B.
Same with Film. Compare "Citizen Kane" with "Bad Boys 2"

This "anime is a medium" debate is going nowhere. How about we think of it this way: Animation is just a tool they use to tell a story. Just a tool. Take "Naruto", for example. It could have used a real set with real actors and real props, but they didn't. They used animation instead. "The Dark Knight" could have been animated if they wanted. Hell, there has been an animated TV show called "The Adventures of Batman and Robin", which also had an animated theatrical spinoff called "Batman: Rise of the Phantasm" They could have done it with real actors and real settings just like Adam West's "Batman". But they didn't. They used animation. (It's also a helluva good movie, I recommend it to anyone who is a Batman fan.)

The thing with Japan is that it mainly uses animation to tell their stories. That's not to say that they don't also do live stuff though, because they do. "Mother" for instance, isn't animated. There is also a live action remake of the animated movie "Grave of the Fireflies" saying that Japan only has animated shows is an outright lie.

Art is also a completely subjective form of expression too. If you're asking me what is so great about anime, then I'm afraid that I can't really make you see what I see. However, I do sympathize with you on some of the shows that you watched. I think that Naruto is fucking annoying and stupid. I haven't even touched Code Geass. I liked Gurren Lagann up until the ending, which got too crazy (even by the show's craziness) that it got stupid.

There is also one thing that hasn't really been touched on:

It's Japan. Different culture. Different ethics. Different everything. Of course most of the stuff that they pump out is going to be weird, and the majority of the people who watch it might be strange as well (hence the "Kawaii Desu!" girl D< ) I personally am very picky when it comes to anime because I usually like a very well grounded story that can take itself seriously. I usually have to dig around a bit before finding something that suits me. I enjoy anime from time to time (because I have a little bit of a taste for animation) with a good show that tells an interesting story. I usually divert from the mainstream and go for the ones that are a little less appreciated and tamer (not the ones that are in your face with craziness and fanservice). And I also try to not even compare myself to the crazed "Kawaii Desu!" otaku fan. Because, quite frankly, they freak me out as well.

That's why I enjoy anime, just like how I enjoy movies and film in general. If you still don't understand then that's fine by me because you don't have to understand it. You can go about with your life, appreciate what you think is great, I can go about my life and appreciate what I think is great. "To each his own" right?

I've said my piece. I'm done.

 

[Pyroguekenesis]

I can understand why you didn't like the animes at the club...oddly enough they are one of the more popular ones. But personally I don't like them, but there are as much variety of animes out there as there is people - Pokemon, Lucky Star, Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Naruto par example. You just have the type of show you like. Like I hate action/mecha like Gundam but I like Cowboy Bebop, Trigun and a few others. THere are some that make fun of society and life in general like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, Lucky STar or Cromartie High but it's pretty much all personal choice. Some animes can be pretty damn good though if they are well directed and stuff. Naruto is something I really don't recommend as a first-time anime, theres almost around 400+ episodes and I have completely lost track after 3?? not to mention the new Shippuden series where they have all grown up and the entire storyline has been filled by so many fillers and arcs I can't be bothered explaining anymore.

 

[MakerOfRoads]

I live in Japan.

Anime is very prolific here.
OP has a good point, most Japanophiles would look like freaks here.
I like anime. But I like it for reasons other that "because its from japan." Thats a stupid reason to like something. The japanese are an interesting culture, but its not what most people think. My ex-wife is a HUGE anime fan, goes to anime conventions and everything, the whole bit. Every time I walk out my front door, and see ACTUAL Japanese people, it kind of makes me chuckle a bit, something obviously got lost in translation.

But, as far as the pros go for anime, there are many.
As one guy said, its easier for anime to portray things that wouldn't make sense if done in live action, its cheaper to get story ideas to the public because all you have to do it pay an artist, not a whole group of actors. And while alot of the story ideas are kind of weird, hard to follow, thats the actual Japanese representation. Alot of things are straightforward, but alot of it is confusing as hell as well.

All in all, I would say its kind of an acquired taste. One you get into it, its much the same as getting into a certain genre of movies, or music per se. If theres enough material to absorb it can be a pretty rewarding experience.

 

[DarkRyter]

Okay, this has been going on for about 10 pages and I'm surprised nobody has made any progress. Apparently nobody explained it well enough that there are different genres in anime just like in any other medium. You have your romance anime, you have your action anime, you got your comedy anime, and hell, you even have your family friendly anime.

I could go on and on with a huge wall of text (I'm sure I probably will) explaining how there are differing types of genres in anime and to then compare American animation and Japanese animation and how, just like in Japan, there are differing types of genres in American animation. Would I say that Disney's Beauty and the Beast is the same genre as "Stewie Griffin: The Untold Story"? Hell no. Same with "Spirited Away" and "Akira" Same genre? Both movies couldn't be any more different. The only commonalities that they share are that:

1. They are movies
2. They are animated

The same can be said about paintings. Compare the "Mona Lisa" to "The Persistence of Memory"
Same with music. Compare Country with R&B.
Same with Film. Compare "Citizen Kane" with "Bad Boys 2"

This "anime is a medium" debate is going nowhere. How about we think of it this way: Animation is just a tool they use to tell a story. Just a tool. Take "Naruto", for example. It could have used a real set with real actors and real props, but they didn't. They used animation instead. "The Dark Knight" could have been animated if they wanted. Hell, there has been an animated TV show called "The Adventures of Batman and Robin", which also had an animated theatrical spinoff called "Batman: Rise of the Phantasm" They could have done it with real actors and real settings just like Adam West's "Batman". But they didn't. They used animation. (It's also a helluva good movie, I recommend it to anyone who is a Batman fan.)

The thing with Japan is that it mainly uses animation to tell their stories. That's not to say that they don't also do live stuff though, because they do. "Mother" for instance, isn't animated. There is also a live action remake of the animated movie "Grave of the Fireflies" saying that Japan only has animated shows is an outright lie.

Art is also a completely subjective form of expression too. If you're asking me what is so great about anime, then I'm afraid that I can't really make you see what I see. However, I do sympathize with you on some of the shows that you watched. I think that Naruto is fucking annoying and stupid. I haven't even touched Code Geass. I liked Gurren Lagann up until the ending, which got too crazy (even by the show's craziness) that it got stupid.

There is also one thing that hasn't really been touched on:

It's Japan. Different culture. Different ethics. Different everything. Of course most of the stuff that they pump out is going to be weird, and the majority of the people who watch it might be strange as well (hence the "Kawaii Desu!" girl D< ) I personally am very picky when it comes to anime because I usually like a very well grounded story that can take itself seriously. I usually have to dig around a bit before finding something that suits me. I enjoy anime from time to time (because I have a little bit of a taste for animation) with a good show that tells an interesting story. I usually divert from the mainstream and go for the ones that are a little less appreciated and tamer (not the ones that are in your face with craziness and fanservice). And I also try to not even compare myself to the crazed "Kawaii Desu!" otaku fan. Because, quite frankly, they freak me out as well.

That's why I enjoy anime, just like how I enjoy movies and film in general. If you still don't understand then that's fine by me because you don't have to understand it. You can go about with your life, appreciate what you think is great, I can go about my life and appreciate what I think is great. "To each his own" right?

I've said my piece. I'm done.

You've said everything I ever wanted to say on the matter in a way that's clearer and more precise than anything I could have ever written or have tried to write.

Thank you.

 

[Dango]

Never go to an anime club. Ever. I absolutely love anime (the non-oversexualized and non-crazy action anime at least), but those anime clubs have fans that are just too much for me. As for why I like anime, it's partly because I find it entertaining, and partly because I pay attention to the lessons every anime teaches me, and because of it I have become a better person.

 

[Wintermute_]

There must be something I am missing.

Yeah, the good anime.
Firstly, those animes you watched? I personally am not a fan of any of them. It all a matter of taste though. There is SOOO much anime out there, I'm positive that you'll find something you like. I personally love One Piece (give it a try. Its still weird, but funny and awesome).

But, and this is the same for every art form, in the words of some other guy, "90% of everything is crap". anime, movies (oh god movies), books, comic books, TV, paintings and conventional art. Nothing is universally good. Especially anime. But you watched some BAD animes. Naruto? Oh man does that series blow. Just cuz somethings popular doesn't mean its good. Case in point;
Twilight...

Keep searching. Theres other real good stuff in anime.

 

[Drakmeire]

Anime- Because SCREW LOGIC! I WANNA SEE A GIANT ROBOT BLOW UP ANOTHER GIANT ROBOT WITH A DRILL
<youtube=lGI1WTMn_wE>

 

[Marik2]

Anime- Because SCREW LOGIC! I WANNA SEE A GIANT ROBOT BLOW UP ANOTHER GIANT ROBOT WITH A DRILL
<youtube=lGI1WTMn_wE>

LOL it didnt work for the OP.

 

[Bwown]

You didn't really watch 'good' examples of anime. If you want the best the medium has to offer, watch stuff like Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I feel like he would run into the same problem with those. He should try watching Shin-chan and Lupin the 3rd. They're funny and easy to follow, in my opinion anyway.

 

[Charli]

You've gone into it with the mindset of disliking it already. I can tell.. So I don't really know what to tell you. Watch an anime that might appeal to you, there are so many varieties, with different depth, intensity, animation style, and messages, you cannot just say

"What is this anime thing?" and expect us to give a black and white answer, either dive in and find out for yourself or just find something else to occupy your time. I'm not bothered either way. But those 3 you watched were extremely poor choices. You need something that grabs your attention. I don't remember either of those doing that without someone sitting there with me to put the thing in perspective.

Full Metal Alchemist was the first one I sat down by myself, took seriously and let it take me away.

 

[icame]

Personal preference. I for one think the fistful of dollars trilogy are boring, uninthralling, painful movies to watch. But thats my opinion.

I'm not an otaku but I do enjoy an anime every now and again. I love all the stuff from studio ghibli as well stuff such as neon genesis evangelion, the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya, perfect blue.

 

[Texas America Murphy]

Personal preference. I for one think the fistful of dollars trilogy are boring, uninthralling, painful movies to watch. But thats my opinion.

And you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how woefully and undeniably incorrect it is.

 

[Lullabye]

Well, your first mistake was trying to apply logic to anime.
Your second mistake was you watched Naruto.....
Should have went with the totally more practical One Piece.

 

[burningdragoon]

Deathnote Update 2:

YOU SON OF A ***** DVD PLAYER. YOU PLAY DVDS FOR ME FOR TWO YEARS AND THEN BETRAY ME LIKE THIS! I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL BREAK INTO BEST BUY AND KILL YOUR ENTIRE DVD PLAYER FAMILY.

Deathnote Update IV: A New Pope (of Murder)

I love that they just blew half their animation budget on him opening up a goddamn notebook and getting ready to write. Seriously. He opens that book with the same amount of forcefulness and gravitas that Chow Yun Fat uses to kick down doors.

You know what I love about shows that deal with crime? They always have to jack up the crime rateby like 400% and turn every purse theif into John Wayne Gasey.

Jesus Christ. Light is really slow on the uptake. If I had found that I could kill people with a fucking notebook with my living room my list would look like this:

Osama bin Ladin
Kim Jong-il
Mahmoud Ahmidinijad
Vladimir Putin
Michael Moore

Death: Lighting themselves on fireall while publically recanting their hatred of America.

Light is really bad at justice.

Don't have a whole lot of input on your main question, but these two posts are pretty awesome.

 

[Archangel768]

What I DON'T like about anime is that it's either a romantic drama or it's a violent one that suffers from what I call "Dragonball syndrome." Remember how intense the fights were in early Dragonball, anyone? The Goku-Raditz (sorry if I misspelled that) fight was way more enjoyable than watching Frieza and... SOMEONE float above an exploding planet and talk about how the planet was exploding in between yelling at each other and looking surprised at the other's power level.

No. I don't. Because I have NEVER SEEN WHATEVER THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT INCOHERENTLY.

Okay. Just... the fight scenes are way better near the beginning of the series. That's all I meant.

And I fucking dare some otaku ************ to quote me and "prove me wrong" by hocking up their favorite love-drama/mech-fest loogie onto my face.

Gundam Seed

Compare the first episode fights to the final episode fights. I don't know about you but personally, i think the final episode has one of, if not the best fight in the show.

 

[Red Rum]

Sounds like you need to watch an anime that's more closely grounded in reality. There are animes based on "shojo" manga, which are designed mainly for girls and range from sci-fi to historical, but are more focused more on human drama and character development than action (think anime versions of Lifetime Movies). Titles include: Ouran High School Host Club, Romeo x Juliet, and Vampire Knight.

 

[CJ1145]

Dear Nerds, explain to me what the heck the deal with Anime is.

A little bit of background before we collectively explore this artistic train wreck you call ?Japanimation.?

I?m a film student at the University of Texas. I have never seen an Anime before yesterday. I like to think that I give everything I watch a fair shake. Hell, I even watched an Irani film once. Now, my girlfriend Leanne is a member of our school's anime club, which meets every Friday night. Normally I don?t go with her because my JROTC usually meets on Fridays, but last night I was free because it was Christmas Eve (and its Winter Break), and my girlfriend invited me to have an ?Anime Christmas? with her and her friends who live in the area.

So I walk into the living room and there are these girls dressed up in these weird costumes and stuff. One of them runs up to me and shouts something like ?Cowiie Desi.? So I?m put off, but still determined to see what the big fuss is about. DVDs go in the player and I?m treated to what my girlfriend tells me is the most popular Animes.

First off we watched Naruto. I?ve seen German Art House cinema that made more sense than this. I guess it was about Ninjas, but they were all wearing orange jumpsuits? At no point did any of the plot make sense or any of the characters develop.

After that we watched two episodes of Code Geuess. It was like walking into a Mexican soap opera midway through the plot. Everyone was pulling gambits and double gambits and Russian reversals. I didn?t know who was betraying whom, and I don?t think those cardboard cutouts did either. Also, why is Britain invading Japan? We already did that!

Finally, we watched an episode of this thing Guren Lagan. It felt like I was six years old and watching Power Rangers again. You?d think this would be a compliment. A sort of return to youth. But even at 6 I was doubtful of the artistic validity of Power Rangers. Also, the fact that every character on that show was sexually attracted to a 12 year old girl is incredibly disturbing. Is this okay in Japan?

Some basic research reveals that these shows are some of the most popular Anime both here and in Japan. Why is it so popular? What is so great about these shows? I?m so confused. Nothing anyone does makes any sense, the characters are all cliches, and nothing ever actually happens.

I couldn?t help but notice that virtually half the people on this board of some sort of Anime character as their avatar, so obviously people here love it and its popular. But for all my education I cannot possibly comprehend why people call this ?art.? I was hoping that maybe y?all could enlighten me. There must be something I am missing

As a film student you should be ashamed for yourself. No seriously, ashamed for assuming that anime are all the exact same thing. It's just... despicable. You are the Dick Dastardly of this forum, go grab yourself a sword and commit seppuku right now, for making such retarded assumptions. Anime describes an entire genre, full of as many variations as you are likely to find within film industry of America. You are going to find wacky comedies and serious, introspective and thought-provoking shows.

Naruto is regarded as one of the worst, or at least most overrated anime of all time. And Gurren Lagann... Oh shit, you watched the beach episode didn't you? If you did, that's one of the bad episodes (relatively) and the rest is far better. I seriously hope you took the time to read this, because shit like this is important. If you're a film student I should probably have a word with your professor or something, let him know his student's generalizing a storm up in here, see how many flips he can do.

If you want to know more about why they're so popular, read my spoiler. Otherwise just ignore me like I'm pretty sure you're going to.

Spoiler: Naruto

You have no assistance here. People just have different tastes. Some people just happen to like the idea of crazy superpowered "ninjas" fighting in over the top battles. And to be fair, some characters are genuinely interesting, and a few of the plotlines are exemplary compared to the drivel that you can find in so many other shows, not just anime. Naruto's the kind of show where, even if you hate it to its core there's going to be at least one point where you have to stop and say "Okay, that's pretty well done".

Mind you, in Japan this show is directed at young audiences, no older than 16. It's the equivalent of a Saturday morning cartoon, so you (and many others) may just be asking too much from it.

Spoiler: Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann

This show is unbelievable. In a good way. If you did see just the beach episode I apologize for having been introduced to one of the greatest anime in history in such a horrible way. Gurren Lagann is popular because it takes every dark, depressing storyline you're likely to find nowadays and utterly obliterates it, leaving this pure shining light of optimism and hot-bloodedness that nothing else can match. The universe of this show literally runs on determination and passion, so it really lends itself to the idea of highly idealistic heroes, and over-the-top action scenes that no other show would dare to try.

The characters are just so endearing you can't help but like them, the action is good, the plotline actually becomes far deeper than you expect it to, and really you can't help but watch it without getting chills in your spine from how mind-blowingly incredible it is. All this despite the fact that it is literally the equivalent of a Saturday morning cartoon, and it's just remarkable.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

-Snip-

You're talking about an entire MEDIUM. Are the most popular films the best films?

Cowboy Bebop is a pretty great show with a pretty great story (there are a few pretty terrible episodes though). But while a lot of it is episodic, the key story episodes really build on one another, so watching them out of order would be hard.

I don't watch Code Geass, so I have no idea there. It never looked particularly appealing to me, but that's all I can really say.

Though I was initially very reticent regarding Naruto, it really is popular for a reason. There are some nonsensical elements (the orange jumpsuit always seemed especially dumb), but it's a remarkably well-thought-out world and, despite what you saw, has some of the most pronounced character development in popular anime. Two things to remember though: (1) it's made primarily for kids and (2) it's HUNDREDS of episodes long, so the character development is appropriately slow and fairly subtle most of the time. It usually has wonderful animation and the thought that typically goes into how the abilities of the characters get used always impressed me, though your opinions might differ (a lot of the characters use their signature abilities in a large variety of ways, sometimes in very clever and complicated combinations, rather than just doing the same thing over and over like you see in some anime). The characters are incredibly obnoxious at first, but they're essentially supposed to be - they're immature little brats trying to figure out what they're supposed to be doing. Naruto is very much a coming-of-age story and most of the annoyingly childish character traits slowly vanish in a very believable way. You WILL hate the phrase "BELIEVE IT" if you ever watch the English dub though. Edit: Just saw post above mine, very well put.

Gurren Lagann is completely ridiculous, but that is ENTIRELY the point. Did you really think the giant robots with sunglasses were supposed to be taken seriously? It's probably a hard anime to like if you haven't ever watched anime though given that it's a parody of anime (with a hearty addition of many absurdist elements). It's also pretty emphatically not a kid's show, though it parodies those at several points too.

If you're interested in really trying anime, you might look into some of the more serious OVAs (the darker, edgier, shorter, higher-quality direct-to-video releases of the anime world) first given your interest in film. There're a decent number of OVAs outside of the fantasy/sci-fi/vaguely historical fiction genres that encompass the overwhelming majority of anime. As for some particularly good non-OVA series: FLCL (absurdist, amazing English dub, only about two hours long in total, and just really fucking weird (do not expect to understand what's going on at all the first time you watch it)), Serial Experiments: Lain (I watched this years ago and remember being blown away by the complexity and the philosophy, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if I watched it now), Cowboy Bebop (classic, discussed above), and Fullmetal Alchemist (fairly dark, relatively mature, great storyline, and a compelling setting and premise). Wolf's Rain is great too, though not the most straightforward if you're having trouble following what's going on in the anime you've watched so far. Ghost in the Shell is also GLORIOUS cyberpunk goodness with a serious focus on modern political issues. It's often confusing and the plots tend to be very intricate, but it's potentially a more familiar type of plot (technothriller in film terms), so if you're into that sort of thing, it might not be too hard.

Edit: Also, I didn't like Neon Genesis Evangelion. Most people disagree, but I think it was a messy attempt at more seriously giant robot anime that ended up confusing, illogical, and downright bad. You will find an awful lot of people (whether willing to admit it or not) that talk about how profound and thought-provoking the series is just to mask the fact that they didn't understand it (especially nearer the end). Having understood what was going on near the end, I didn't find it particularly appealing and it's CERTAINLY not a good introduction to anime.

Deathnote is like the new Evangelion. PROFOUNDLY overrated and even the people who like it will tend to agree that it should have ended much earlier than it did.

 

[Texas America Murphy]

As a film student you should be ashamed for yourself. No seriously, ashamed for assuming that anime are all the exact same thing. It's just... despicable. You are the Dick Dastardly of this forum, go grab yourself a sword and commit seppuku right now, for making such retarded assumptions. Anime describes an entire genre, full of as many variations as you are likely to find within film industry of America. You are going to find wacky comedies and serious, introspective and thought-provoking shows.

Naruto is regarded as one of the worst, or at least most overrated anime of all time. And Gurren Lagann... Oh shit, you watched the beach episode didn't you? If you did, that's one of the bad episodes (relatively) and the rest is far better. I seriously hope you took the time to read this, because shit like this is important. If you're a film student I should probably have a word with your professor or something, let him know his student's generalizing a storm up in here, see how many flips he can do.

If you want to know more about why they're so popular, read my spoiler. Otherwise just ignore me like I'm pretty sure you're going to.

Spoiler: Naruto

You have no assistance here. People just have different tastes. Some people just happen to like the idea of crazy superpowered "ninjas" fighting in over the top battles. And to be fair, some characters are genuinely interesting, and a few of the plotlines are exemplary compared to the drivel that you can find in so many other shows, not just anime. Naruto's the kind of show where, even if you hate it to its core there's going to be at least one point where you have to stop and say "Okay, that's pretty well done".

Mind you, in Japan this show is directed at young audiences, no older than 16. It's the equivalent of a Saturday morning cartoon, so you (and many others) may just be asking too much from it.

Spoiler: Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann

This show is unbelievable. In a good way. If you did see just the beach episode I apologize for having been introduced to one of the greatest anime in history in such a horrible way. Gurren Lagann is popular because it takes every dark, depressing storyline you're likely to find nowadays and utterly obliterates it, leaving this pure shining light of optimism and hot-bloodedness that nothing else can match. The universe of this show literally runs on determination and passion, so it really lends itself to the idea of highly idealistic heroes, and over-the-top action scenes that no other show would dare to try.

The characters are just so endearing you can't help but like them, the action is good, the plotline actually becomes far deeper than you expect it to, and really you can't help but watch it without getting chills in your spine from how mind-blowingly incredible it is. All this despite the fact that it is literally the equivalent of a Saturday morning cartoon, and it's just remarkable.

OH GOD YOU'RE RIGHT! I AM ASHAMED! I AM SO VERY ASHAMED!

 

[Texas America Murphy]

Deathnote Update 2:

YOU SON OF A ***** DVD PLAYER. YOU PLAY DVDS FOR ME FOR TWO YEARS AND THEN BETRAY ME LIKE THIS! I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL BREAK INTO BEST BUY AND KILL YOUR ENTIRE DVD PLAYER FAMILY.

Deathnote Update IV: A New Pope (of Murder)

I love that they just blew half their animation budget on him opening up a goddamn notebook and getting ready to write. Seriously. He opens that book with the same amount of forcefulness and gravitas that Chow Yun Fat uses to kick down doors.

You know what I love about shows that deal with crime? They always have to jack up the crime rateby like 400% and turn every purse theif into John Wayne Gasey.

Jesus Christ. Light is really slow on the uptake. If I had found that I could kill people with a fucking notebook with my living room my list would look like this:

Osama bin Ladin
Kim Jong-il
Mahmoud Ahmidinijad
Vladimir Putin
Michael Moore

Death: Lighting themselves on fireall while publically recanting their hatred of America.

Light is really bad at justice.

Don't have a whole lot of input on your main question, but these two posts are pretty awesome.

Yeah I'm thinking of just starting a new thread that's just nothing but this.