What makes the Empire in Star Wars evil?

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Spade Lead

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Apollo45 said:
Technically, if you want to get into extended universe stuff, the galaxy would have been better off in the long run if the Empire had continued to exist. Not long afterwards the galaxy is invaded by an extra-galactic race and the New Republic is very nearly wiped out. They partially accomplished this by infiltrating the Senate and screwing things up. If the Empire had remained in control not only would they have not been able to influence anything, since Palpatine was the only one in control, but they also would have come up against a united galaxy with a military force capable of decimating entire planets without batting an eyelash. The invaders would've been boned, to put it lightly. Instead they came upon a fractured, weak New Republic and were able to very nearly dominate the galaxy. All of that, however, doesn't stop the Empire from being evil. It just means that sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
You sir, have condensed a 19 book series into a paragraph blurb that makes it both awesome and a must-read. Bravo good sir. Bravo.

That said, in the series itself Han says:
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

To which Van responds: "Chuckles. 'You are probably right.'"
 

MetalMagpie

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hooglese said:
In the movies, the Imperials/Dark Side are a democratic republic, they kept the galaxy in peace, they only blew up Alderaan because the enemy was gathering there and they allowed freedom to express emotion while the light side of the force achieved none of this.

*Note that I am excluding the latest movies because they were just garbage.
The Senate is dissolved at the start of A New Hope (it's mentioned by Grand Moff Tarkin in dialogue). I think what he said next was, "The regional governors now have direct control over their systems". It's officially a dictatorship from that point.

And blowing up an entirely planet (home to millions of innocent people) because they disagreed with your dictatorship plans does seem a little evil. Again, Tarkin accepts in the film that Alderaan is not a military target and that blowing it up is just a demonstration of the station's power.
 

Bullfrog1983

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The Empire is an empire not a democracy. They blew up Alderaan, enslaved the Wookies, and take what they want by force instead of through negotiation when they slaughter Luke's uncle and aunt to find the droids. The Empire also works for the Sith who believe in murdering or discrediting those above them to rise in power. All in all pretty much not the good guys.
 

sonofliber

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you people are dealing with absolutes.

the empire was grey, sure they did bad things, but they also mantain peace thru power (meaning war between sectors and those kind of stuff were a nono), let me ask you this, how many people died when the empire rule (not counting actions taken because of those pesky rebels (so alderaan is a no)), and how many died because of the vong invasion thanks to a weak but free republic?
 

Frankster

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Soviet Heavy said:
Again, TOR Alderaan =/= Film Alderaan. Not every country or planet stays the same for three thousand years.
Aye that may be, i just dont believe Alderaan would have had such dramatic changes so until some source says otherwise i will assume Alderaan has remained very much nobility driven (princess leia being the obvious example). Heck the entire assumption of Alderaan being this peaceful planet truly not being a threat comes entirely from princess leia, not exactly the most credible source, as her "we are just on a diplomatic mission!" line shows, she has said some BS in the films.

Either way all im saying is that if i was Evil Emperor of the empire, id go for Alderaan in a flash as its the most visible thorn in my side that has done nothing but constantly give the empire the finger whilst hiding behind litigation and claims of innocence and peace all whilst aiding those trying to overthrow me.
 

Spade Lead

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I want to play devil's advocate now. From the beginning:

Palpatine grew up on a backrocket planet in the mid-rim, seeing rampant corruption and a government that frequently failed to live up to it's intended goals. He was trained by a Sith named Darth Plagueis, one of the enlightened Sith who believed that the Force was both Life and Death, who wanted to instill in his Acolyte the need for balance in the Force. Palpatine thought that this meant he needed to bring down the Jedi, when in reality Plagueis was trying to teach him to find inner peace.

When it came time for Palpatine to become a Sith Lord, he betrayed his master and murdered him in his sleep. Now bearing the title Darth Sidious, he arranged a way for the corruption of the Trade Federation to be brought to light.

Unfortunately, the corruption in the senate completely ignored the massive abuses the Trade Federation perpetrated against Naboo, and he saw no choice but to step in himself and try to enact justice. When he assumed the Chancellery, he assumed he could begin hacking away at the corruption immediately. When that failed, he established the Confederacy through his new acolyte, Darth Tyrannus, who was at one point already a Jedi Master. Tyrannus, already disillusioned with the Jedi, took Palpatine's extremes in the Sith Teachings even further.

Unfortunately, he began to double deal behind Palpatine's back, as dark Sith are wont to do, and Darth Sidious was no longer in control of the CIS as he had intended. When Tyrannus ordered his capture, Palpatine realized that he could never trust a fully powerful Sith Lord as his equal or underling. He ordered Anakin to kill Tyrannus to cover for his mistakes, and to help free him from the Jedi's destructive and inhibiting dogma.

Unfortunately, as Anakin came to understand more about the truth of the Force, he was still fighting the Jedi dogma, and when he realized that Palpatine was trained as a Sith, he assumed that Palpatine was evil, which he learned was wrong when the Jedi tried to assume power in the galaxy by assassinating the duly elected Chancellor. When Anakin witnessed this first hand, he broke the shackles of his Imperialist "Masters" and began to correct his mistakes in understanding. Palpatine, in a moment of anger, ordered the complete destruction of the Jedi, without stopping to think about the consequences. He enacted "Order 66," a safeguard meant to stop any Jedi who went rogue from further damaging the Republic. (The proof of this lies in the fact that he had to call each squad leader individually, rather than just broadcasting a mass "Order 66" message to all units with Jedi assigned.) While Anakin was charged with taking over the Jedi Temple, he was also angered and betrayed that those he looked on as his only family had done this horrible thing. In his anger, he simply started fighting his way through the Jedi remnants, until when he got to the chamber where the Jedi Younglings were hiding, he was so worked up with anger that he couldn't control himself. He may even have worked himself into such a rage that he doesn't remember slaughtering the younglings.

Palpatine was appalled by his actions, having at first intended to train the younglings in the correct views of the force, but he eventually came to understand that at least most of them would have been hard to convert, having lived with Jedi dogma for as long as they can remember.

When he learned of the Separatist Leader's hideout, he dispatched his acolyte Darth Vader to capture them. Again, misunderstanding his orders, Vader "Captured" the leaders with his lightsaber.

Palpatine was doing his best to correct his past mistakes, and reorganized the Republic into the First Galactic Empire with only his most trusted allies found in positions of power. The ones he could trust.

Yoda attacked the Emperor in his suite, attempting to complete the botched assassination that his peers had failed. Luckily the Emperor's Sith training allowed him to hold off the Jedi assassin, who at every turn prevented Palpatine from escaping when he attempted to flee.

At the same time, Darth Vader's former master joined him at Mustafar, attempting to turn him against the Emperor and back to the Jedi way, so that they could overthrow the Emperor and restore "freedom" to the galaxy. Vader saw through his ploys, especially the manipulation of his own wife against him, and engaged in a furious duel with his former master.

Vader was so damaged psychologically by this fight that he could not bring himself to fully immerse in the Force and even restrained himself from hurting his master as much as possible. When Obi-wan cut him down, and left him to die in that lava pit, Darth Vader called out to Palpatine, who heard his call and immediately came to his rescue.

Seeing the true beliefs of the Jedi at this time, both knew that the galaxy would never be safe until this menace was wiped away. They immediately began looking for all of the information they could find about the Confederacy and it's military spending, as there were massive amounts of missing funds and warships. This eventually lead to the discovery of a black project called the "Death Star." The construction was fully funded, and nearing completion when it was found, 16 years after the fall of the CIS. The Emperor put his friend Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin in charge of the station.

The rebel alliance, intending to build it's own Death Star, stole the plans for the station, and transmitted them to Princess Leia of Alderaan, who was going to smuggle them into her home system, where fund-raising could begin for this massive project. Vader intercepted her and took her to the fully operational Death Star, intending to show her the consequences of that decision.

Tarkin, eager to try out his new Doctrine, "rule through fear of force, rather than force itself," ordered the destruction of Alderaan due to it's intention to build weapons of mass destruction.

When the rebel criminals broke the Princess out of prison, the Empire got lucky enough track the Millenium Falcon to it's home base. Having no fleet within strike distance, the Grand Moff decided to pilot the Death Star into the system and draw the rebels out in an engagement they couldn't win. Unfortunately, the rebels had time to analyze the plans and found a weakness. They destroyed the Death Star with one shot, killing over 1 Million people, including innocent bar tenders and reporters who were onboard for the decomissioning ceremony.

The Emperor, concerned that other planets could get their hands on the plans, immediately ordered the construction of a second Death Star, to be used to engage any other Death Star. This one was fitted with an even more powerful laser that could be fired at different power-levels, and was capable of targeting ships down to cruiser size for self defense.

Meanwhile, Darth Vader began the furious search for the leader of the rebels, Luke Skywalker, his son. When he found his son's friends stranded on Bespin's Cloud City, he let word filter out that he had them, and waited for Luke to come to him. Luke charged into battle, hopelessly outmatched by the man who he so desperately wanted to destroy. When Vader revealed his true heritage, and explained the truth of the Force, Luke chose to jump to safety rather than face the truth.

The Emperor, fearing the rise of a new order of Jedi, trained by Luke Skywalker, sought safety aboard this new defense platform, until such time as it was made operational. He feared a massive raid by the rebels that would result in his capture like had happened at the end of the previous war.

When the rebels, lead by Skywalker himself attacked the second Death Star, he ordered the fleet to be engaged by the Death Star. As rebel ships began to fall, Skywalker entered the throne room and engaged Darth Vader. Darth Vader was no match for the younger Skywalker, whom he tried to once again to enlighten. Skywalker refused to listen, and struck down Vader, then turned on the Emperor, who was unable to defend himself at his advanced age.

When the Death Star was destroyed, Luke began traveling the galaxy, spreading the story that Vader had realized the wrongness of his actions and destroyed the Emperor himself to atone for his actions in an effort to build goodwill feelings towards the rebellion which had, overnight, destabilized an entire galaxy.
 

Spade Lead

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Frankster said:
Aye that may be, i just dont believe Alderaan would have had such dramatic changes so until some source says otherwise i will assume Alderaan has remained very much nobility driven (princess leia being the obvious example). Heck the entire assumption of Alderaan being this peaceful planet truly not being a threat comes entirely from princess leia, not exactly the most credible source, as her "we are just on a diplomatic mission!" line shows, she has said some BS in the films.

Either way all im saying is that if i was Evil Emperor of the empire, id go for Alderaan in a flash as its the most visible thorn in my side that has done nothing but constantly give the empire the finger whilst hiding behind litigation and claims of innocence and peace.
But, you assume that nothing could change that drastically in just 3,000 years? Seriously sit down and think about that. In the last 100 years, Russia went from being an Empire under an Emperor, to a Socialist haven under Lenin, to a Dictatorship under Stalin, back to Socialist, and now to a more democratically minded Federation since 1991. All that in just 100 years. To assume that things won't change much in 3,000 years is ridiculous. Can you even name one nation-state that was around 3,000 years ago? And if you can, when did it fall?
 

Soviet Heavy

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Frankster said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Again, TOR Alderaan =/= Film Alderaan. Not every country or planet stays the same for three thousand years.
Aye that may be, i just dont believe Alderaan would have had such dramatic changes so until some source says otherwise i will assume Alderaan has remained very much nobility driven (princess leia being the obvious example). Heck the entire assumption of Alderaan being this peaceful planet truly not being a threat comes entirely from princess leia, not exactly the most credible source, as her "we are just on a diplomatic mission!" line shows, she has said some BS in the films.

Either way all im saying is that if i was Evil Emperor of the empire, id go for Alderaan in a flash as its the most visible thorn in my side that has done nothing but constantly give the empire the finger whilst hiding behind litigation and claims of innocence and peace all whilst aiding those trying to overthrow me.
It could be argued that they weren't hiding as much as they were trying to protect the ignorant, innocent masses. However, if that were the case, then the Nobility might as well just give themselves up, rather than hiding behind innocents.

That seems to be a problem with the Republic and the Alliance. They are always reliant on popular support, and in turn use their charity, even when it could cause more harm than good.

See Mandalorian Wars, where the Mandos responded to Republic Troops hiding in civilian centers by just bombing the whole city regardless. Or the aforementioned ill advised instigation of planetary riots on the Imperial Capital, achieving nothing and getting hundreds killed.
 

newwiseman

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A fascist totalitarian regime that willfully will destroy whole worlds with millions of people living on them for the hope of eliminating a few rebels with leadership the joyfully force chokes dissidence questions and failure... seems like the definition of evil to me.
 

Frankster

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Soviet Heavy said:
Aye i can definitly agree with the reliance and use of popular support being a double edged sword and at times detrimental to the republic/alliance ideal and the average citizen.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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To much security to little liberty(free will/thought and freedoms in genreal) and even less care handling lives.
 

Rad Party God

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Well, Hitler wasn't very democratic, wasn't he?

Or better yet, let's bomb my entire country, or even better yet, let's bomb the entire lower half of the continent just because a bunch of pricks are selling drugs, forget about all the BILLIONS of innocent people.
 

Soviet Heavy

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canadamus_prime said:
Except they didn't blow up Alderaan to because the rebels were gathering there, because they weren't gathering there. They blew up Alderaan just to show off the power of the Death Star.
Also they were a tyrannical dictatorship, and if I'm not mistaken they oppressed most races that weren't human, although that could've just been EU, but they were still a tyrannical dictatorship. They ruled through fear and intimidation and had no qualms about blowing up anyone who disagreed with them. That's sounds pretty evil to me.
No, it was pretty clear in the films as well.

"Where are you taking this.... thing?"

Chewie is a thing, a tool, a slave int their eyes.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Soviet Heavy said:
canadamus_prime said:
Except they didn't blow up Alderaan to because the rebels were gathering there, because they weren't gathering there. They blew up Alderaan just to show off the power of the Death Star.
Also they were a tyrannical dictatorship, and if I'm not mistaken they oppressed most races that weren't human, although that could've just been EU, but they were still a tyrannical dictatorship. They ruled through fear and intimidation and had no qualms about blowing up anyone who disagreed with them. That's sounds pretty evil to me.
No, it was pretty clear in the films as well.

"Where are you taking this.... thing?"

Chewie is a thing, a tool, a slave int their eyes.
Oh ok, wasn't sure. Haven't seen the original films in awhile.
 

Soviet Heavy

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canadamus_prime said:
Soviet Heavy said:
canadamus_prime said:
Except they didn't blow up Alderaan to because the rebels were gathering there, because they weren't gathering there. They blew up Alderaan just to show off the power of the Death Star.
Also they were a tyrannical dictatorship, and if I'm not mistaken they oppressed most races that weren't human, although that could've just been EU, but they were still a tyrannical dictatorship. They ruled through fear and intimidation and had no qualms about blowing up anyone who disagreed with them. That's sounds pretty evil to me.
No, it was pretty clear in the films as well.

"Where are you taking this.... thing?"

Chewie is a thing, a tool, a slave int their eyes.
Oh ok, wasn't sure. Haven't seen the original films in awhile.
Detention center shootout scene.

(Luke, Han and Chewbacca enter room. Four Imperials look up. Their leader approaches the heroes)

Lieutenant: "Where are you taking this... thing?"

Luke: "Prisoner Transfer from cell block 1138"

Lieutenant (suspicious): "I wasn't notified. I'll have to clear it."

(Two troopers raise their blasters and move to apprehend Chewbacca. Suddenly, Chewbacca bursts through his "broken" binders, tossing a guard aside.)

Han: Look out, he's loose!"

(Luke passes his rifle to Chewbacca, who begins blasting every monitoring device he can see, while Han and Luke take advantage of the chaos to blast the remaining troopers.)
 

Ascarus

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Shadowstar38 said:
In fact, why have a weapon that blows up planets at all?
it was suggested in the books that palpatine foresaw the coming of the Yuuzhan Vong and was attempting to bring the galaxy under one control to facilitate the impending fight. it was also suggested that he built these superweapons (e.g. death stars, galaxy gun, sun crusher) to fight the yuuzhan vong who had the never before heard of ability to travel intergalatically.

certainly there is some post hoc lore being applied there since none of that is suggested in the original films, but it's a fun theory nonetheless.