What makes the Empire in Star Wars evil?

[AzrealMaximillion]

In the movies, the Imperials/Dark Side are a democratic republic, they kept the galaxy in peace, they only blew up Alderaan because the enemy was gathering there and they allowed freedom to express emotion while the light side of the force achieved none of this.

*Note that I am excluding the latest movies because they were just garbage.

Are you being serious?

 

[fix-the-spade]

In the movies, the Imperials/Dark Side are a democratic republic, they kept the galaxy in peace, they only blew up Alderaan because the enemy was gathering there and they allowed freedom to express emotion while the light side of the force achieved none of this.

*Note that I am excluding the latest movies because they were just garbage.

They were a democratic republic. By the time the Death Star was floating about not only were they democratic in the same sense the Congo is, but they drop any and all pretension by simply disolving the Senate and handing power to Imperial Regional governers (guess which film devoured my childhood).

Plus their standard search and interrogation method seems to be torture, then summary execution and disposal of bodies by fire.

What exactly did the Jawas and the Lars family do to deserve such treatment? They handled a pair of robots of no particular significance as far as they knew. In both cases the troopers could simply have driven up and asked, claiming they were stolen from their commanding officer or something similarly mundane (and then the film would have been half an hour long), but nope, murder it is.

There is also the minor point that they built a planet destroying laser specifically for the purpose of squashing political unrest. That's kind of an Isrealis in Palestine approach, kill everyone and you're sure to get the one who's your enemy.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

This is all based on the Imperial Military, which itself was only one part of the greater machine that was the Empire. There was also the endless propaganda, secret police services, Dark Jedi assassin squads, and the Inquisition.

The average Imperial Citizen lived in ignorance of the atrocities committed by the government due to how embedded in society the spin doctors and propaganda machines were. Leveling a city block to squash an uprising would be covered up as demolition work on an "abandoned" area of the planet, being renovated for new tenants.

 

[Frankster]

a peaceful one that was threatening no one (hell, according to Leia they didn't even have weapons)

Just want to adress this as i feel its BS and Leia was lying through her teeth on that one.

Putting aside the extended universe and TOR mmo which depicts Alderaan as a beautiful planet sure, but certainly no stranger to violence and weapons (also the average alderaan is oppressed by the self serving ruling classes and well off nobility to which Leia belonged to), lets not forget Alderaan was a hub of the rebel alliance and anti imperial propaganda and thinking (partially because the nobles of that world viewed themselves as untouchable due to being Aldereraanians), they actively supplied rebel forces and were a constant thorn in the Empires side but would constantly hide beyond the Senate and regulations or other excuses such as "we are just a peaceful planet!" when truth be told Alderaan was a very active and prevalent backer of the rebel alliance.

Ps: Not saying the Empire is anything less then evil or that rebels arent the designiated good guys by comparison. But feel rebels get white washed a bit too much.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

a peaceful one that was threatening no one (hell, according to Leia they didn't even have weapons)

Just want to adress this as i feel its BS and Leia was lying through her teeth on that one.

Putting aside the extended universe and TOR mmo which depicts Alderaan as a beautiful planet sure, but certainly no stranger to violence and weapons (also the average alderaan is oppressed by the self serving ruling classes and well off nobility to which Leia belonged to), lets not forget Alderaan was a hub of the rebel alliance and anti imperial propaganda and thinking (partially because the nobles of that world viewed themselves as untouchable due to being Aldereraanians), they actively supplied rebel forces and were a constant thorn in the Empires side but would constantly hide beyond the Senate and regulations or other excuses such as "we are just a peaceful planet!" when truth be told Alderaan was a very active and prevalent backer of the rebel alliance.

The Old Republic takes place three thousand years before the films, and if you are including that, then the rest of the EU applies as well. Following the Ruusan Reformations 1000 years prior to the films, the Republic Military was disbanded in favor of the Judicial Forces, pretty much Space Police. Republic Worlds could not have standing military forces, but would provide a number of volunteers to the Judicial Forces.

Alderaan might have been a hotbed for Rebel support, but being a sympathizer to a cause does not automatically make you a supporter. Like Luke said himself.

"It's not that I don't like the Empire, I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right now."

So billions of innocents had to die because of the guilty few. When the inverse happened, and Kyp Durron destroyed the entire Carida System, one of the Empire's most prized military academies, it is treated as a horrific war crime. Sure, you took out a military target, but you also just annihilated an entire star system, and signed the death warrant for anyone within distance of the supernova.

I do agree with you about the squeaky clean Rebels, however. One thing that people like to forget is that the celebrations on Coruscant at the end of Return of the Jedi were in fact riots. On the Imperial Capital. How many hundreds must have been massacred in response to the civil disobedience, because some idiot Rebel agent decided to broadcast that message on public channels?

Sure it got the word out, but it did so at the cost of countless people.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Alderaan was not destroyed because the Rebels were hiding there. It was merely a demonstration to keep the other systems in line. That would be like the US blowing up all of France, just to intimidate Somalia.

No, I think a more accurate example would be the US dropping two atomic bombs killing roughly 200 thousand people in short order as a demonstration of ungodly power in order to intimidate Japan into surrendering instead of a prolonged conventional campaign that would have drug on for years and likely resulted in deaths that would number closer to the millions.

You know, you're right! It is exactly the same as the atomic bombings...

Except that Alderaan didn't have a military. (Barring a planetary shield)

Nor was it engaged in a war against the Empire.

In fact it was still considered a part of the Empire (The complaining whinny liberal part anyway).

huh...

I guess it would be more like nuking California or Texas because it was getting uppity than anything.

 

[Frankster]

snip

I find it hard to believe the disarmement would apply to the Alderaanian nobles, not least cos of their attitudes and their tendency to view themselves as above such petty restrictions. The problem with violence and weapons didnt come from any alderaanian police but the squabbles of the nobles who had their own personal armies. I really cant see them disarming their entire houses, not least cos of their dimissive snobby attitudes.

Alderaan was more then just a hotbed for sympathisers, it had an active role in supplying and helping with the rebel movement. Princess Leia being the best example right there, constantly protesting her innocence or how they are on a "peaceful diplomatic mission" but actually smuggling top secret plans that would change the course of the war...

And you misunderstand me, im not attempting to justify Alderaans destruction as moral or good in anyway, and not even trying to say destroying an entire planet of people is anything less then irrevocably evil.

Also imo the average person of alderaan would have no clue of all this, they are all just servants and serfs to the mighty snobby Alderaanian nobles (TOR was a real eye opener in this regard).

 

[Something Amyss]

Assuming this is a joke, but....

In the movies, the Imperials/Dark Side are a democratic republic,

With an Emperor. That statement's about as logical as the Wise old Queen of 15 years who was democratically elected on Naboo.

they kept the galaxy in peace,

Except for the parts that weren't at peace. I mean, smugglers, drug dealers and bounty hunters abound.

they only blew up Alderaan because the enemy was gathering there

Actually, they targeted Alderan to make a demonstration of Leia's homeworld. This extortion was an attempt to get her to rat out the Alliance, and even when a name was given, they destroyed her planet anyway because the base given was too remote.

and they allowed freedom to express emotion while the light side of the force achieved none of this.

I'm not even sure what you're on about here.

 

[Something Amyss]

I guess it would be more like nuking California or Texas because it was getting uppity than anything.

I, for one, support the nuking of Texas.

>.>

 

[Altorin]

ummmm... the empire isn't a democratic republic. It's an autocracy. Note that it has an Emperor, not a President, or Chancellor. The emperor rules with an iron fist, and he basically single-handedly stole the galaxy from its citizens. Through dirty tricks involving droid armies and clone troopers. Even if you ignore the prequels and Palpatine's rise to power, it still stands that he's an emperor who uses a "death star" to stomp out rebels who wish to return to an earlier time of relative freedom and peace, when they weren't stuck under the oppressive and dark regime of a tyrannical dictator.

and there's no justification for destroying a planet, especially one that's heavily populated. You must be trollin'

 

[blackrave]

But Alderaan didn't have any gathering enemies...they blew it up just to show how big their space-dicks were and anger Princess Leia.

Yeah it was a World War II reference.

OT: In the original trilogy there's every indication that the Empire wasn't really evil. Vader's (before "Darth" became a title) reference to "there'll be no escape for you this time" clearly meant that he was being pushed and was stretching the law, which meant there were laws and processes protecting civil liberties. There's also an interesting theory about how the Stormtroopers had trouble shooting civilians because they weren't trained to do that. They seemed to shoot just fine when it was against people in uniform. Then again there's also the mention that blowing up the first Death Star was killing Imperial soldiers who understood the risks of their jobs. Blowing up the second Death Star included a lot of innocent contractors with families. Yeah the Rebels were terrorists and by succeeding in taking down the Empire they just caused a lot of chaos and killed a lot of innocent people.

^This

I personally consider it as some sort of brainwashing that democratic state is always good
No it isn't
Democratic=/=good
Autocratic=/=evil


What was truly evil in Empire? Management.
Simple as that- without Palpatine and Darth Vader Empire could actually turn into something really good
And I expect this from EpVII, that Empire will try to right its wrongs and do something good for its citizens, now that the Palpatine is out of the way and Emperor is someone more sane and adequate

autocracy

Thanks, that was the word I was searching for- autocracy

 

[Soviet Heavy]

snip

I find it hard to believe the disarmement would apply to the Alderaanian nobles, not least cos of their attitudes and their tendency to view themselves as above such petty restrictions. The problem with violence and weapons didnt come from any alderaanian police but the squabbles of the nobles who had their own personal armies. I really cant see them disarming their entire houses, not least cos of their dimissive snobby attitudes.

Alderaan was more then just a hotbed for sympathisers, it had an active role in supplying and helping with the rebel movement. Princess Leia being the best example right there, constantly protesting her innocence or how they are on a "peaceful diplomatic mission" but actually smuggling top secret plans that would change the course of the war...

And you misunderstand me, im not attempting to justify Alderaans destruction as moral or good in anyway, and not even trying to say destroying an entire planet of people is anything less then irrevocably evil.

Also imo the average person of alderaan would have no clue of all this, they are all just servants and serfs to the mighty snobby Alderaanian nobles (TOR was a real eye opener in this regard).

Again, TOR Alderaan =/= Film Alderaan. Not every country or planet stays the same for three thousand years.

 

[Nimzabaat]

Just because the contractors knew that their job might be dangerous doesn't give anyone the right to murder them. And besides, they were building an instrument for galactic peace. That's what trying to own everything is, the quest for peace.
Besides there was every indication in the original trilogy that the Rebellion itself pushed the Emperor and Lord Vader into using more extreme methods to stop them. For all we know if the Empire had succeeded in trapping and destroying the Rebels at Endor, he may have reinstated the senate and let everyone relax. There may even have been a tax rebate since the Imperial military would have been able to scale back Palpatine bucks for everybody! (Which is way better than palpating bucks for everyone, they feel disgusting)

Come on, I know you don't really believe this bullshit, "they were building an instrument for galactic peace" is so laughably wrong I'm having trouble focusing on the rest of your argument, they knew exactly what it was for, they never said they were building it to "keep the peace", they were building it to blow up the rebels and stop any other resistance before it starts, by blowing up Alderan (a utopia) as a demonstration of their power. I actually missed when you said "That's what trying to own everything is, the quest for peace" because I couldn't get over the earlier statement, owning everything is absolutely NOT the quest for peace, it's the quest for owning and ruling everything, Palpatine did it because he's greedy, hates the previous system, and wants to see his ideals spread throughout the galaxy (ideals that encourage slavery, selling out friends and murder).

"Besides there was every indication in the original trilogy that the Rebellion itself pushed the Emperor and Lord Vader into using more extreme methods to stop them." No there isn't, the empire were building the death star regardless of whether the rebels showed up and never once took them seriously as a threat (until they stole the death star plans which might have been the thing that put them on the empire's radar), though the worst statement is "There may even have been a tax rebate since the Imperial military would have been able to scale back " Of course there wouldn't, he'd use it as an excuse to create more star destroyers, death stars, and might even enforce mandatory military service.

Also, even in the original trilogy they mention Palpatine destroyed the senate when he rose to power, and has been in power for some time before the rebels appeared on their radar, I have no idea why you'd even think he'd reinstate the senate, especially after you see how he encourages backstabbing as a way of rising through ranks, and sees killing people as a way to inspire others.

Captcha: that's what she said (for some reason written in Olde style font)

Actually it's called devils advocate and it's fun.
Any Empire building is for the purpose of peace. If everyone is under the same flag there is no violence. Period. No one has succeeded at that yet (well the Romans came close), but it is still the ultimate goal. Denying that is just naive.
"There will be no escape for the princess this time". Vader had been after the Rebellion for a while. Who knew what other innocent victims the Rebels had? He was plenty pissed off by that point, we can only guess as to why. It's outside of the scope of the movies as to what Darth Vader was like before dealing with the Rebellion.
As for the rebate that was a joke. But seriously once the Rebellion was out of the way and there was peace in the galaxy again, why wouldn't Palpatine be more magnanimous? You assume he wouldn't, but without any evidence to back that up. That's like if R2-D2 screwed one more info socket he would go on a rampage and detonate his astromech-destroy-the-galaxy-device and that would be it for everyone. I can make half-assed assumptions too.
I also like how people jump on the "slavery" (which the Empire wasn't involved in during the original trilogy or the prequels) and "torture" (it was a droid with a syringe, probably not as horrific as what constitutes torture in our world) aspects. People love embellishing those things without any actual basis. The Hutts had slaves but the Empire and the Hutts weren't exactly on the same page. For all we know once the Rebellion was out of the way the Empire may have had the resources to take down the Hutts and free all of those slaves. We'll never know now.
And doesn't anyone remember that good guys wear white? Those stormtroopers believed that they were the good guys and they were out there to enforce law and order. And TIE Pilots were camouflaged in case they got ejected into space

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Well lets run down a list of stuff from the Original Trilogy shall we (avoiding EU for the time being)...

- Religious Persecution (The Jedi)
- Slaughter of Innocents (Jawas, The Lars Family, The Entire Planet of Alderaan)
- Racism (No Aliens in the Imperial Army)
- Suppression of Democracy (Disbanding the Senate)
- Torture (Leia, Han, Luke)

But yeah, in the Original Trilogy it's really the destruction of Alderaan that is supposed to paint the Empire as evil. Destroying an entire planet as a "Demonstration" of the power of the Death Star? Pretty hard core...

The EU expands a lot on the "evil of the empire" with a lot more on the racism and slavery and the fact that they've destroyed many, many planets through means less efficient than The Death Star (Camaas being a prominent one). Similarly if you want to go into some "Force Philosophy" the Empire was evil because it couldn't be anything else, when you turn to The Dark Side you effectively become a tool for your Id. So basically The Emperor's goal was to "push it as far as he could" as far as conquest and power grabbing goes, he may have originally had a somewhat "noble" goal (organize the Galaxy to fight The Vong, which I guess makes sense... but the Vong are stupid, so I have trouble accepting that rationality) but any "noble" goals become completely corrupted by The Dark Side ala Anakin regardless of which trilogy you decide to read into.

However the EU also shows the other side of The Empire through characters like Thrawn, Paelleon and Jagged Fel.

Heck if you want to go even further the Fel Empire in the Star Wars: Legacy comics is what the Empire would have looked like if it wasn't evil. While its still ruled by an Emperor and still incredibly Authoritarian it "gets along" with The Galactic Alliance (what the New Republic turned into) in a diplomatic sense and does use nearly the same brutal suppression tactics that the previous Empire did (though it definitely has its Dark Side it is far less evil than Palpatine's Empire).

 

[Spade Lead]

They blew up a planet. Period full stop. The fact that you tried to spin that to be a positive thing makes it look like you are either trolling or poorly trying to play devil's advocate, especially since your justification is false.

There's more to it than that, for sure, but to reiterate: They blew up an entire planet to show off that they can blow up an an entire fucking planet.

I am getting tired of seeing this while no one expounds upon it.

Alderaan HAD DISARMED! There were not only no weapons of mass destruction on Alderaan, the Alderaanians themselves had given up their ABILITY to make war. They piled all of their weapons on a few cruisers and then sent them off randomly into space to be recovered in the event they were ever needed, but only when they returned every decade or so. Does that sound like a nest of troublesome and military minded rebels set on bringing down the Empire through force of arms? No, the rebels on Alderaan were vocal in the senate, and THAT is also why the senate was disbanded.

 

[Spade Lead]

And I feel the need to protect that idea of the Sith being better because they allow marriage and shit.

The Sith order DOESN'T allow marriage. In everthing ever written about the Sith, it encourages the Sith to be islands of power, because "relationships are weapons to be used against our opponents, and weaknesses to be avoided."

 

[Bernzz]

What makes them evil? They enslaved the entire populace of Wookiees on Kashyyyk. As well as countless other species that were enslaved just 'cos.

Oh, and yeah, they blew up Alderaan.

Pro-tip: when two things that can be readily associated with you are 'slavery of entire races' and 'genocide on a planetary scale', you aren't the good guys.

 

[trooper6]

The Empire is evil for all the reasons mentioned...but the old Republic didn't seem much better if you were the common man.
The Old Republic had a Senate...full of, it seems, monarchs. Monarchs are not democratically elected (Padme notwithstanding). The Jedi and the Republic seemed to not have too much of a problem with slavery and lots of beings had no representation.

If you were part of the proletariat it sucked being under either system.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Except they didn't blow up Alderaan to because the rebels were gathering there, because they weren't gathering there. They blew up Alderaan just to show off the power of the Death Star.
Also they were a tyrannical dictatorship, and if I'm not mistaken they oppressed most races that weren't human, although that could've just been EU, but they were still a tyrannical dictatorship. They ruled through fear and intimidation and had no qualms about blowing up anyone who disagreed with them. That's sounds pretty evil to me.

 

[Frezzato]

The Empire could have been total jerks had they wanted, even more so than the movies suggest: