What makes the Empire in Star Wars evil?

Warachia

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Nimzabaat said:
Your reply is a bit of a mess. Next time can you quote properly so people know who said what?

Once again though you're fighting with material from the EU which is NOT canon. If it wasn't in the original trilogy (most Star Wars fans treat the prequels as non-canon, but that's another conversation) it didn't happen.

Anyways, the goal of an all encompassing empire is to have everyone under the same flag. It has never worked because humans defy the quest for peace and any sort of common sense. We have applied that same lack of reason to the aliens in the Star Wars galaxy just because if they were advanced it makes for a crappy story. "Everyone is happy and nothing interesting happens, the end."

You may have a point with the Emperor wanting to expand though. If he got the rest of the galaxy under his control he could do away with slavery and poverty. Maybe that was the plan before some a-hole murdered him? Who can say?

As for "tightening his grip" (um in context please), that was from the perspective of a rebel and a habitual liar. Seeing as the trilogy never touches on any of the core Imperial planets, who is to say what the life of the common citizen was like? The scenes of people killing stormtroopers and tearing down statues of the Emperor were thrown in there afterwards and can be taken just as seriously as Han shooting second.
The reason I don't like quoting throughout my post is because it ridiculously expands the post and makes it harder to read. If I made a mistake in quoting you, please tell me where.
That book I mentioned isn't EU, and is considered canon, this book is focused only on the original trilogy and came out to compliment it, essentially a movie guide. Incidentally, this is the first time I used anything that wasn't in the movies so I don't know why you're saying "once again".

I agree the goal for an empire is to have everyone under the same flag, everything else in there I agree with too.

The emperor might have gotten rid of slavery and poverty, but you'd trade one evil for another, longer lasting one, it would be a galaxy where your boss could hold you at fault and possibly kill you for anything (even if you did nothing wrong) and everyone directly below you would be plotting your downfall. All the governors of the areas would have direct control of their areas and are ruling by fear and example (as Tarkin stated in the first movie) although since neither of us knows for sure how it would turn out due to the emperor being dead we should probably stop where we're at.

The context is the emperor has a metaphorical stranglehold on the galaxy, the death star would tighten his grip and make it harder to get rid of it, and I base the martial law being enforced because whenever stormtroopers show up anywhere that's exactly what happens, I highly doubt they'd let the core planets do anything differently.
 

Darknacht

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hooglese said:
In the movies, the Imperials/Dark Side are a democratic republic, they kept the galaxy in peace, they only blew up Alderaan because the enemy was gathering there and they allowed freedom to express emotion while the light side of the force achieved none of this.
In WWII, the Germany/Nazis are a democratic republic, they kept the Europe in peace(at least once they are done subduing it), they only killed Jews/Communists/Poles/Romani/Freemasons/Slavs/Homosexuals/Jehovah's
Witnesses/ect. because they where helping the enemy.

sonofliber said:
you people are dealing with absolutes.
the empire was grey, sure they did bad things, but they also mantain peace thru power (meaning war between sectors and those kind of stuff were a nono), let me ask you this, how many people died when the empire rule (not counting actions taken because of those pesky rebels (so alderaan is a no)), and how many died because of the vong invasion thanks to a weak but free republic?
Saying that the Empire should have been supported because it would have been better at fighting the Vong is kind of like say that the Nazi should have been supported because they would have been better at fighting the Soviets.



KingHodor said:
Nimzabaat said:
(most Star Wars fans treat the prequels as non-canon, but that's another conversation)
Wait, what?
A lot of fans might not like the prequels, but to completely disregard a trilogy of movies that were, after all, made by the universe's creator himself, seems a bit extreme.

Plus, what actually counts as a Star Wars fan? What about all the kids born after 1990 that treat the prequel trilogy as part of their childhood, and therefore actually like it, do they count?
I think Nimzabaat is exaggerating a bit, most Star Wars fan I know don't consider prequels canon(even the younger fans) but I would not apply that to the general population of fans.
 

Nimzabaat

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What it boils down to is this:

From the Opening Crawl;
It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

Basically the Empire is evil because they say it is. As a child, watching that, everything is spelled out for you in the simplest terms. As an adult and a Star Wars fan, I can admit that there is some very lazy story-telling going on there (I have a twin sister? Who can it be? Is it Chewie? No? Han? No? Lando! No... Um... Admiral Ackbar? Wait, is it the only female human in the story?). I can also admit that we have seen the conflict from one, very skewed, perspective.

I was disappointed with the prequels because they make the same mistake they always make when revisiting a property years later. Your core audience has grown up. There is juggling to be done when your core audience are now adults and you have to appeal to a younger crowd as well to get a new audience. It can be done but it takes effort, which we didn't get. When I saw Phantom Menace it felt like someone had watched A New Hope a while ago, didn't really remember it, then wrote a story about it.
 

Asita

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rhizhim said:
to be fair, alderaan had this:
A LOT of it.
You're thinking Naboo, not Alderaan.
 

SlaveNumber23

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They want to kill all the cute little Ewoks. Also they have a really intimidating theme song.

 

Soviet Heavy

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Owen Robertson said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Owen Robertson said:
Matt King said:
umm giant death weapon? blowing up of planets? destroying the jedi order?
The Jedi Order had become a politically motivated army. It was compromised. It was going down anyway.
It was manipulated into that position by Palpatine. There is a blink and you'll miss it moment in an episode of The Clone Wars that shows a Palpatine Propaganda Hologram subtly spreading anti Jedi Sentiment. He was playing the public against them, and then forcing crises that would further discredit the Jedi.
Really? Damn. Never saw that. Time to go watch 2. Thanks friend.
Episode is Lightsaber Lost, Season 2.
 

Arrogancy

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The same things that make most authoritarian empires evil. Y'know, the fact that they're brutal authoritarian empires with centralized authority that keep the people oppressed. You can point to good things they've achieved, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're a brutal authoritarian empire.
 

Twilight_guy

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They are not a 'democratic republic', as the name implies, they are an emperor, run by a emperor who has complete power over everything.

Aside from that, morality. You can make a good argument that Hitler or Stalin weren't evil if you ignore morality and come up with way to try and justify things. That's the one thing people tend to exclude as soon as they make a thread like this, they ignore morals and try to find a logical reason for 'badness' but there isn't one. Evil only exist if you have a notion of evil a set of rules on what that is, a morality. Murdering a guy can't be logically argued to be bad, it can be argued to have negative consequences but not to be 'bad'.
 

Robot Number V

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Yeah, that's a pretty flimsy excuse for Alderan. It would be like if America responded to 9/11 by nuking every square inch of the Middle East.

You really don't see what's wrong with that?
 

Olas

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It's usually a bad sign when, in a galaxy of millions of diverse species and races, your government and military consists almost exclusively of white dudes.
 

DoPo

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OlasDAlmighty said:
It's usually a bad sign when, in a galaxy of millions of diverse species and races, your government and military consists almost exclusively of white dudes.
Dudes in white, we don't get to see under many of their helmets.

Then again, they sort of seem like space KKK, so...yeah. I'd say they are evil.
 

Sniper Team 4

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Oh! Oh oh oh oh! Me! Pick me! Long ago, someone on here asked this same question. I gave a reason or two, then said, "Just read the books." His response was something along the lines of, "If it has to be explained in the books, then it doesn't count." That made me angry because a lot of his counter arguments were coming from Expand Universe stuff, but I didn't want to point that out. So I just gave up.
However, I did start seriously thinking about the original trilogy, looking for examples. I found a lot of them and wrote the list on my Facebook page ages ago. Sadly, there is no 'search your posts' option, so I will have to do my best to remember it.

Let's start with the very beginning of A New Hope. Storm Troopers have taken over the ship, killing nearly everyone they find. Granted, these people were shooting back and fleeing from the 'law', so that's forgiven. And we do see that they took a few prisoner. Cut to Darth Vader. He is choking the life out of the ship's captain. He ends up snapping his neck and tossing him aside like trash. The Storm Troopers don't even look at Vader funny. This is clearly normal stuff for them; Killing unarmed prisoners in a brutal, painful death (up until the neck snap anyway) is nothing new. One point for evil.

Next we cut to the meeting between the Moffs and Tarkin. Tarkin says the old senate has been swept away and dissolved. Judging by the way Tarkin says this, I'll bet money a few of those people were literally dissolved. But that's my guess. No proof. What there is proof of is Vader choking someone because he disagrees with him and mocks him. And what does everyone do about it? Nothing. Vader continues to choke the man until he nearly dies and after Tarkin orders him to stop--letting it go on far too long to begin with--Vader acts like he's choosing to follow the wish of a child. "As you wish," he says as he casually tosses his hand back. These are not the actions of a kind person, but one who is used to crushing people for no other reason that he's mad at them. And that's ACCEPTED behavior among the Moffs because no one is horrified and demands for Vader to stop. They all get the look of, "Oh crap. Hope he doesn't do that to me next." Another evil point.

So by now, you may say that I'm just proving Vader is evil. Not so. Let's look at the Storm Troopers sent to retrieve the droids. They do some seriously questionable, and most would say down-right evil, acts. First, they slaughter an entire colony. What? When did they do this? Remember what made Luke realize the troopers were heading home? They found a Jawa sand crawler wrecked and its inhabitants slaughtered. This is pointed out to be done by Storm Troopers. Why did they kill all those beings? The Jawas didn't know about the droids, didn't know about the plans, posed no threat to the Empire, yet the Storm Troopers slaughtered every one. Evil Point.
Next, Luke gets home and we're all familiar with what he finds there: He aunt and uncle, dead. But not just dead. No, the Storm Troopers didn't line them up against a wall and shoot them. They burned them, most likely alive. Why alive? See the way they have their arms stretched out like they were in pain when they died? And even if they weren't alive, why burn the bodies? These are two farmers who live out in the middle of nowhere. They were no threat, but the Storm Troopers killed them in quite possibly one of the most painful ways possible and then burned down their home. Evil point again. Talk about spite the well.
Finally, there's the final scene with the Storm Troopers on Tatooine. Many people see them coming and get right out of the way, like they're terrified. Probably not a good sign when the civilian population is ducking out of the way of people who are supposed to be keeping law and order. However, the reason for this is made obvious when the troopers catch up to Han. No warning. No, "Excuse me sir, we need to speak with you." No nothing. What's the first order given? "Stop that ship! Blast them!" These Storm Troopers are trained to kill on sight and gather information from bodies, not live people. These are not the type of people who go around enforcing a fair and balanced democracy. These are death squads who will kill you if you so much as sneeze funny.

Alderaan. If you don't think wiping out a planet full of innocent people makes you evil, I'm scared of you. However, since we're dealing solely with movie stuff, your point is still invalid. When in the movie does it say that the rebels are using Alderaan as a base? It doesn't. The only rebel we know of from that planet is Princess Leia. The rebels are using Yavin 4 as a base, seeing as that's where most of them are at the end of the movie. Tarkin blows up an entire planet just to break the will of a prisoner. AN ENTIRE PLANET FOR ONE PERSON, who wasn't even on the planet. And no one on the Death Star--not the techs, not the troopers, not the pilots, not the guy who lined up the firing solution--so much as goes, "Oh...oops." They all knew exactly what had just happened and they're fine with it. Those that weren't probably got on the next shuttle out of there. Massive evil point.

Then there's the stuff that goes on inside the Death Star. Princess Leia is tortured, and judging by the length of that needle and the way she huddles in the corner, this is some pretty serious torture. And how does the warden of the prison cell respond when he see Chewie? "Where are you taking this...thing?" Racism isn't going to earn you any good points either, because racism leads to some seriously disturbed stuff. Two more evil points.

And that's just the first movie. Moving on to the second and third now...

In The Empire Strikes Back, Vader executes not one, but two of his own people. Why? Because they failed him. Oh, you screwed up? I'm going to choking the life out of you now. Once again, no one is surprised by this. It's just another normal day in the Empire, where being human is the only way to get a job, and will most likely get you killed by your superior because humans make mistakes.

Next we have Vader and the Storm Troopers torturing Han. Torture again. Painful torture, judging by the screams Han is letting out. And why? Why are they doing this? The Rebellion is currently scattered. Han and Leia haven't been in contact with anyone because they've been on the run since they left Hoth. That's why they go to Cloud City, so they can get a handle on things in a safe place. Nor do we even see Vader or the troopers asking Han any questions. We can only assume that Vader tortures him just for fun. Evil point.

What happens when Lando makes a city-wide announcement saying, "The Empire has taken control of the city"? Do people just go, "Oh, no big deal. They're nice. Everyone carry on like normal."? No, people instantly fly into a panic. These are not space pirates, rebels, or low-lives. These are gas miners and their families. They should have nothing to worry about, but the thought of the Empire running their city sends them screaming out the door. Meaning that there has to be a reason for their screaming. Probably because they know that Storm Troopers and the Empire aren't exactly the nice government that the Emperor would want them to believe. Evil point for proof of how the citizens of an honest city react to your arrival.

Finally, there's Return of the Jedi. By now, the viewer has already established in their mind (or at least Lucas hopes so) that the Empire is evil, so there aren't many examples of it. It's just a straight up brawl. We do see that the rebels are not racist, as they have an alien in charge of the fleet, along with an alien crew, and Lando has a co-pilot who is also an alien. In the deleted scenes, we also see there are alien starfighter pilots. But there is one example, perhaps the key to everything, in the final moments of Luke's time aboard the second Death Star:

The Emperor starts torturing Luke. He is running electricity through Luke's body, something that I can only imagine how painful it is, and he's LAUGHING while he does it. He's taking pleasure watching his victim suffer in agony before him. He's not being merciful and just killing him quickly. The Emperor is making sure that Luke suffers a horribly painful death at his own hands, and he doesn't want to miss a second of it. If the man at the top is this corrupted, twisted, sick, and downright evil, do you still think that the government he runs is nice, equal, and fair?


And that's all I have to say. Wish I had caught this topic when it was still on page one as I would like to see what people would have had to say about it. Oh well.
 

Josh123914

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Sniper Team 4 said:
The snip that broke the scissors
0.0 ........cool story, needed more dragons (seriously, that's an insightful wall o' text)

OT: Well the Empire in Star wars can be considered evil for one simple reason: the lack of multiracialism. For a so-called democracy the only people in the original sequels on the empire's side running the show are humans, whereas you only go back 30-odd years to the horribly inefficient democratic republic there were hundreds, perhaps thousands of species serving on the senate.
That's just one, if you want more, see the post above me.
 

Soveru

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Because the intro at the start of the movie said so. Their soldiers are called storm troopers. You know who else had storm troopers? The NAZIS!

Darn evil if you ask me
 

Stalk3rchief

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You also have to look at the Moffs. I don't think a single Moff was good, in any way. Hell, some of them hunted random people for giggles on planets that they controlled, and the Empire endorsed this. Most Moffs have people killed simply for being in an area they don't like, or an area that they like and want. It's like Soviet Russia all the time everywhere but 100 times worse.
 

CommanderL

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Nimzabaat said:
KingHodor said:
Nimzabaat said:
KingHodor said:
Nimzabaat said:
(most Star Wars fans treat the prequels as non-canon, but that's another conversation)
Wait, what?
A lot of fans might not like the prequels, but to completely disregard a trilogy of movies that were, after all, made by the universe's creator himself, seems a bit extreme.

Plus, what actually counts as a Star Wars fan? What about all the kids born after 1990 that treat the prequel trilogy as part of their childhood, and therefore actually like it, do they count?
The prequels break continuity with the rest of the Star Wars universe. Obi-wan doesn't meet Anakin when he's a fighter pilot in the Clone Wars
Obi-Wan just states that Luke's father was the galaxy's best starfighter pilot during the Clone Wars, not that this was when he met him.

Luke and Leia's mother doesn't live on Alderaan with Leia.
When do they say that?

Yoda is not portrayed as a teacher but more of a badass lightsaber fighter which is completely out of character
Most of the time we see him in the prequels he's being on the Jedi council, training younglings, discussing matters with Mace or Obi-Wan or counseling Anakin when he's troubled. Sure he has to fight (there being a war and all), but he's not proud of it. Think Mr Miyagi from The Karate Kid - wise teacher, but also capable of being a badass fighter if necessary.
Also, keep in mind that Yoda's lived for 900 years, and he probably did more fighting during the Clone Wars than in a whole "normal" century.

Not to mention the huge plot holes between the two series. Let's hide one of Darth Vader's kids on his home planet with his only surviving family? Hiding something in the first place he'd look for it? Genius! (The original story had Obi-Wan hiding Luke from Vader and the Emperor with some hicks, who we wasn't related to, in a far "corner" of the galaxy.)
Again, when is that stated? When Obi-Wan tells Luke about his father, he informs him that his uncle had been lying to him, but he doesn't say anything about Owen not being his uncle (nor does the script). Yes, it is a plothole, but one that was present in the original trilogy.
When Obi-Wan talks about Luke's father in a New Hope we was already a great fighter pilot before becoming a Jedi. Anakin was never just a fighter pilot.

In the original trilogy it is reasonable to assume that Luke has been hidden from his father in a remote location. That makes sense. In the prequels it suddenly becomes Darth Vader's home planet and thus stops making any kind of sense. Unless Darth Vader is believed to be so inept that the most obvious place to hide something from him is the last place he would look. In that case, why not just enlist Luke in the Imperial Military? Ha Ha! Vader would never suspect that his best TIE pilot was his son!

Luke and Leia discuss their mother in Return of the Jedi. Leia has memories of her mother indicating that their mother didn't die in childbirth. That was actually kind of a shocker in the prequels because you knew Padme lived to see Leia at least for a while. It had been established in canon. Then oops! Retroactive continuity! (I HATE retroactive continuity, it's the stupidest and laziest form of story-telling. Basically the author can't be bothered to remember things he's written).

Um yeah i'm a bit of a Star Wars fan :)


Or leia could have been talking about her adoptive mother who may have also died when she was young
 

RandV80

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Josh12345 said:
Sniper Team 4 said:
The snip that broke the scissors
0.0 ........cool story, needed more dragons (seriously, that's an insightful wall o' text)

OT: Well the Empire in Star wars can be considered evil for one simple reason: the lack of multiracialism. For a so-called democracy the only people in the original sequels on the empire's side running the show are humans, whereas you only go back 30-odd years to the horribly inefficient democratic republic there were hundreds, perhaps thousands of species serving on the senate.
That's just one, if you want more, see the post above me.
Actually something about the whole 'multi cultural' element of Star Wars stinks. It's like a US Presidential election race, where you have the 'Evil Empire' Republicans whose voter base consists almost entirely of white people, and the 'Rebel' Democrats who are also run mostly by white people but have the coalition support of the Black, Hispanic, and Asian voters. The Star Wars universe is basically an expanded microcosm of the United States. Mostly humans/white people that may or may not mix with a minority of aliens/minorities.

Stop and think about it for a moment. There are apparently tons of different alien races in Star Wars. And everything indicates that general technology for space travel and weapons have been around for a very long time, to the point that space fairing tech is basically gunpowder in the 21st century. Under these circumstances no singular race should be able to dominate the entire galaxy. And if one specific race is able to go xenophobic and try it then there should be signs of other races doing the same.

So... the point I'm really trying to make is since the multicultural aspect of Star Wars is poorly thought out and unrealistic it shouldn't count against the empire as a point for them being evil!

Even the better thought out Star Trek universe suffers a little from this. Sure you have competing species that act realistically in opposition to humanity like the Klingons or the Romulans, but for our side we aren't just humans but a United Federation of planets and species... whose starfleet consists primarily of humans with a few aliens mixed in here and there for flavour.
 

Mr Mystery Guest

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As a citizen under Lord Darth Vader I felt secure under his rule. With his policy of dominion rule enforced by clones and androids I would never be conscripted to fight in a foreign war.
Now because of the political instability I am expected to attend guard duty three days in every ten because the neighbouring system keeps raiding our agricultural plantations. This would never have been allowed with the efficient threat of a superior force. I am just happy my son is in college learning Media Studies and will escape the draft for three years.

When the Rebels started their campaign did they have any adequate policies on agricultural crop rotations? Certainly not, in my community the cost of grain is astronomical. And Healthcare is now non-existent. Vader believed that a healthy population was a productive one but since the Rebellions "victory" many are now malnourished and we have had cases of rickets and polio that was thought eradicated. The sadist concern pertains to the surviving homeless Storm-troopers.

Our community is awash with these pitiful veterans begging for change. Their genetic makeup prohibits them to think for themselves and search for work, but most tragically of all, they are preyed upon by sexual deviants. Their inability to refuse orders leaves them vulnerable to sexual predators and they are routinely raped and abused. Vagrant Storm-troopers have the highest percentage of Space Aids than any other ethnic group.

To all the Rebel Fighters out there, drunkenly gloating and looking for spoils of war I just want to say that you did not fight for my freedom. And get a job.