What outcomes do you want from Avengers: endgame?

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I want everybody who died to stay dead, and all those who didn't to finally die.
But it's Disney so everybody lives and eats cake.

The improbability of that aside, if you don't like the franchise why bother watching?

Cause I get paid to do it.

Dude if you're job is to watch/review movies, just do it. The rest of us have to pay.

I will, and you do. But the question was what I want from the movie, not whether I will watch it or not.
Also if getting paid voided criticism that would defeat the purpose of... criticism.

But your criticism isn't that these movies are bad, its that these movies shouldn't exist. If you don't like them, say you don't like them in your review. Don't say 'They need to stop making these movies because I don't like them.'
That does invalidate your opinion. You're not paid to like them, you're paid to review them and that does require that they exist.

Obviously my review isn't a throwaway thought on a forum board.
I enjoy most Marvel stuff on the basic level of a Saturday morning cartoon. They're as fun as something so divorced from real human comedy or drama can be. So fun, but meaningless.
What bothers me about Disney movies in general ("superhero" just happens to be the moneymaker these days) is that there's never any real lasting effect to anything, and there's a whiff of desperation to the increasing Super Size Me threats each movie comes up with. Every movie feels like a bluff. Civil War was the tipping point. Who cares about a "war" that takes up a single battle nobody wants to fight, where everybody pulls their punches, nobody dies (one guy hurts his leg, accidentally) and doesn't change the dynamic of the franchise in any significant or lasting way? Same with Infinity War. It's all just a series of fakeouts trying to sucker in viewers to keep up with cartoon melodrama so they can feel like they're part of a big, important thing.

But the same can be said for all movies. No one really dies. I mean I swear I saw Boromir die in Lord of the Rings, only for someone who looks just like him to be in Game of Thrones. Talk about a fake out. I legitimately thought they killed actors in death scenes! How am I supposed to get invested in a death scene if I know they're not really dying?

What movie has had a lasting impact on anything, ever? What movie could you talk to everyone in the Nation and they all agree, yes X had a lasting impact?
For all its 'fake outs' Civil War did change the dynamic of a team that was once a team now not being a team. In the same way Boromir dying changes the dynamic of Boromir being alive to not being alive. Its a paradigm shift. The Avengers were a team of heroes. Civil War broke up the team. To a team not being on a team is a pretty big shake up.

I'm not saying you have to like them, but it seems like a willful disregard for story to imply nothing changes from movie to movie. I mean can you legitimately watch Iron Man 1, and then Infinity War and say nothing has changed in the slightest and Marvel has stagnated with fake outs?

 

[Something Amyss]

For the sequel to be A-Force

Given how shocked Feige and company were at the notion that fans might want "she-vengers", I find this incredibly unlikely. But given my hopes for Endgame mostly hinge on time travel and going back to stop them from going down this road with IW and Endgame, I think you have the more realistic hope.

It doesn't even really need time travel to work. Just have:

A) enough female characters to make a team

B) a celestial being made of stars called "Singularity" land on earth running from the villain. Claiming all disparate female characters were her best and only friends in an alternare universe that only she remembers and she will only accept their help.

C) characters form bonds and friendships while struggling to understand and accept singularity's opinions, past, and wants given that none of them remember anything she's talking about.

D) them kicking ass

I didn't mean to apply that to A-Force, more that my idea involved traveling back in time and stopping whoever's idea it was to make the current movies be as they are not do so. You can throw A-Force into there pretty easily, too...in fact, I think it might work better than a two-part movie that's virtually guaranteed to piss off a lot of people by virtue of the fact we know the Decimation gets undone.

I nhad reservations about Infinity War before it even finished filming, and my hopes for Endgame are pretty low.

The bridge was that the main obstacle for your idea was Feige and my idea (don't do a movie that could backfire spectacularly)'s biggest obstacle was time travel.

 

[Hawki]

But the same can be said for all movies. No one really dies. I mean I swear I saw Boromir die in Lord of the Rings, only for someone who looks just like him to be in Game of Thrones. Talk about a fake out. I legitimately thought they killed actors in death scenes! How am I supposed to get invested in a death scene if I know they're not really dying?

That's really a strawman argument.

Of course Sean Bean is alive, but Boromir dies in Fellowship, and the impacts of that are felt in the next two films. Where does the MCU have a death scene that rivals Boromir's?

If you want another example, compare the Siege of Helm's Deep to the attack on Wakanda in Infinity War.

For all its 'fake outs' Civil War did change the dynamic of a team that was once a team now not being a team. In the same way Boromir dying changes the dynamic of Boromir being alive to not being alive. Its a paradigm shift. The Avengers were a team of heroes. Civil War broke up the team. To a team not being on a team is a pretty big shake up.

Where's that change actually felt though? We get lip service to it in Homecoming, and a paltry impact in Infinity War - nothing in Infinity War required Civil War to happen. Again, if we're using LotR as an example, the Fellowship breaks in the first film, and they're not reunited until the end of the third, during which the plot is dependent on the Fellowship being scattered.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I want everybody who died to stay dead, and all those who didn't to finally die.
But it's Disney so everybody lives and eats cake.

The improbability of that aside, if you don't like the franchise why bother watching?

Cause I get paid to do it.

Dude if you're job is to watch/review movies, just do it. The rest of us have to pay.

I will, and you do. But the question was what I want from the movie, not whether I will watch it or not.
Also if getting paid voided criticism that would defeat the purpose of... criticism.

But your criticism isn't that these movies are bad, its that these movies shouldn't exist. If you don't like them, say you don't like them in your review. Don't say 'They need to stop making these movies because I don't like them.'
That does invalidate your opinion. You're not paid to like them, you're paid to review them and that does require that they exist.

Obviously my review isn't a throwaway thought on a forum board.
I enjoy most Marvel stuff on the basic level of a Saturday morning cartoon. They're as fun as something so divorced from real human comedy or drama can be. So fun, but meaningless.
What bothers me about Disney movies in general ("superhero" just happens to be the moneymaker these days) is that there's never any real lasting effect to anything, and there's a whiff of desperation to the increasing Super Size Me threats each movie comes up with. Every movie feels like a bluff. Civil War was the tipping point. Who cares about a "war" that takes up a single battle nobody wants to fight, where everybody pulls their punches, nobody dies (one guy hurts his leg, accidentally) and doesn't change the dynamic of the franchise in any significant or lasting way? Same with Infinity War. It's all just a series of fakeouts trying to sucker in viewers to keep up with cartoon melodrama so they can feel like they're part of a big, important thing.

But the same can be said for all movies. No one really dies. I mean I swear I saw Boromir die in Lord of the Rings, only for someone who looks just like him to be in Game of Thrones. Talk about a fake out. I legitimately thought they killed actors in death scenes! How am I supposed to get invested in a death scene if I know they're not really dying?

Wrong argument, wrong reasons. "Movies are fake anyway". Really? Is that it? You've never seen a movie that made you care?

What movie has had a lasting impact on anything, ever? What movie could you talk to everyone in the Nation and they all agree, yes X had a lasting impact?

I don't think "the Nation" (?) could agree on whether it wants cake or death, much less what makes a transcendental movie. But if you're interested Sight & Sound, Library of Congress and Cahiers du Cinema usually have good picks.

For all its 'fake outs' Civil War did change the dynamic of a team that was once a team now not being a team. In the same way Boromir dying changes the dynamic of Boromir being alive to not being alive. Its a paradigm shift. The Avengers were a team of heroes. Civil War broke up the team. To a team not being on a team is a pretty big shake up.

Even if the Avengers didn't make up by the end of Civil War (which they do, with RDJ's blessing) everybody's back fighting side by side in Infinity War. The "war" amounted to nothing. Nothing that happened in it mattered in any of the subsequent movies, except to introduce even more good guys who needed the screentime before solo'ing their own tentpoles.

I'm not saying you have to like them, but it seems like a willful disregard for story to imply nothing changes from movie to movie. I mean can you legitimately watch Iron Man 1, and then Infinity War and say nothing has changed in the slightest and Marvel has stagnated with fake outs?

Movie #1 felt fresher than movie #20. Crazy. Look, I liked Iron Man and if you compare it to Infinity War, yeah, we didn't have talking raccoons back then. There's nothing "willful" to having an opinion about a franchise after having watched 20+ movies in it. I see the journey and all we've really had has been stories about dudes overcoming the *same* character flaws and learning to work as a team. Over, and over, and over.

 

[Kyrian007]

I want it to be good, that's about it. Just entertain me. That being said...
I take much enjoyment in other's misery. So if it doesn't work, if it isn't entertaining on its own... I at least want it to be a huge middle finger to everyone breathlessly speculating on how "Marvel is going to bring 'X' back." Maybe even a middle finger to everyone watching the movie in general.
The best way to accomplish that, would be to have the movie be a huge sweeping slow burn build up. Figuring out how the infinity stones work. Gathering the people and McGuffins necessary to undo it all. Overcoming every obstacle in their path against seemingly impossible odds. Assembling and fighting their way toward a final and suitably apocalyptic battle, once and for all with Thanos?
Only to then find him peacefully doing some menial task on his farm, content in the simple labor of tending to his fields. Not offering any resistance at all. When they confront him, he just smiles and says, "what? Don't you get it? WE are the ones that died, not everyone else. I didn't exclude myself from the 50% that were to die... it was my time too. That "turning to dust" thing? That's just what it looked like from this end. Everyone who was "dusted," they are alive and well back in the universe. We simply vanished from that world and are now in an afterlife inside an infinity stone."
Yup, a massive "it was all a dream/the afterlife." The screeching of the fanboys and the gallons of their salty tears... glorious.

 

[SupahEwok]

I want AntMan to take the surviving Avengers into the Microverse, which for bullshit reasons turns out to connect to other realities or whatever, and they get Mickey Mouse and Luke Skywalker to come kick Thanos' ass.

 

[Worgen]

I'm ok with some coming back if its clever but there should be no everyone comes back thing. I really want it to commit to the bad shit happens ending of the infinity war. There are a few ways to res some but if they do all then it will really hurt any kind of feeling of permanence in the marvel universe. Actually the best way they could do it would be the character is dead but someone else takes up the mantel.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Actually the best way they could do it would be the character is dead but someone else takes up the mantel.

Not to mention super convenient for all the A-listers whose contracts are up and need cheap replacements at hand.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

I want Gamora to be the one to kill Thanos. And I don't want it to be easy. Even with the addition of Captain Marvel, I want the final battle against Thanos to require effort. I don't want Captain Marvel to just show up and curb stomp him. I don't want any form of redemption or regret. I don't want Thanos to do what a certain other character did and be all like "Yeah, I've seen the error of my ways and I'm cool with the heroes defeating me and undoing my work." He's spent his entire life killing, torturing, and being a piece of shit. I want him to own it and die the monster he is.

I want it to be good, that's about it. Just entertain me. That being said...
I take much enjoyment in other's misery. So if it doesn't work, if it isn't entertaining on its own... I at least want it to be a huge middle finger to everyone breathlessly speculating on how "Marvel is going to bring 'X' back." Maybe even a middle finger to everyone watching the movie in general.
The best way to accomplish that, would be to have the movie be a huge sweeping slow burn build up. Figuring out how the infinity stones work. Gathering the people and McGuffins necessary to undo it all. Overcoming every obstacle in their path against seemingly impossible odds. Assembling and fighting their way toward a final and suitably apocalyptic battle, once and for all with Thanos?
Only to then find him peacefully doing some menial task on his farm, content in the simple labor of tending to his fields. Not offering any resistance at all. When they confront him, he just smiles and says, "what? Don't you get it? WE are the ones that died, not everyone else. I didn't exclude myself from the 50% that were to die... it was my time too. That "turning to dust" thing? That's just what it looked like from this end. Everyone who was "dusted," they are alive and well back in the universe. We simply vanished from that world and are now in an afterlife inside an infinity stone."
Yup, a massive "it was all a dream/the afterlife." The screeching of the fanboys and the gallons of their salty tears... glorious.

I'd actually be fine with something like that. It sounds interesting, though I doubt they'd ever do it. My only problem with it, and with the possibility of Infinity War being the final MCU movie, is that it doesn't feel conclusive. For a Villain Wins story just feels hollow and begging for a sequel. Even if Captain America, Iron Man, and Co. are the ones that are actually dead that still leaves Black Panther, Doctor Strange, the Pyms, and Co. and fight to bring them back and Heroes are extraordinarily good and pulling some BS to win the fight. If I'm going to get a villain wins ending for the MCU, the villain needs to crush them in body, spirit, everything. Otherwise, I'll just be left disappointed.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

My only problem with it, and with the possibility of Infinity War being the final MCU movie, is that it doesn't feel conclusive.

There's like half a dozen more movies in production.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

My only problem with it, and with the possibility of Infinity War being the final MCU movie, is that it doesn't feel conclusive.

There's like half a dozen more movies in production.

I'm talking theoretically here. If the MCU decided to just stop at Infinity War as is, with Thanos snapping and warping away. It just wouldn't be a satisfying ending even if you want the villain to win in the end. We all know the MCU will never die.

 

[Kyrian007]

snip

I'd actually be fine with something like that. It sounds interesting, though I doubt they'd ever do it. My only problem with it, and with the possibility of Infinity War being the final MCU movie, is that it doesn't feel conclusive. For a Villain Wins story just feels hollow and begging for a sequel. Even if Captain America, Iron Man, and Co. are the ones that are actually dead that still leaves Black Panther, Doctor Strange, the Pyms, and Co. and fight to bring them back and Heroes are extraordinarily good and pulling some BS to win the fight. If I'm going to get a villain wins ending for the MCU, the villain needs to crush them in body, spirit, everything. Otherwise, I'll just be left disappointed.

Yeah, it wouldn't be the end of the MCU. It would be a fairly definitive end to The Avengers though. I found it more than a little odd that the MCU's original Avengers lived through the snap while the "dead" were made up pretty much entirely of those who came later, and who had more movies already planned. That "reversal" idea of mine was one of the first thoughts about it I had, especially after rewatching Age of Ultron and seeing that "statue" end credits sequence. It begs the question "is that a memorial statue?" The two really terrible problems with it are it are a: it kind of kills Tony's "dream sequence" vision from Age of Ultron and b: It really undercuts Hawkeye's rumored arc. Otherwise I like the idea that for the "remaining" heroes to bring back the "dead" Avengers and half of everyone else... they would also be bringing back Thanos. And, the ones that died prior to the snap would remain dead. Something that would (in one specific case especially) really be bringing back a really pissed off Thanos. Dude is a certified nightmare even without the infinity gauntlet.

 

[Something Amyss]

Just saw the Superbowl ad spot, and...it makes me disappointed we won't gert a full movie within the duration between the "Decimation" and whatever the Endgame turns out to be.

I mean, it's a shame on a personal note. I'm not convinced it'd be anywhere near as big as Endgame, but it's such an interesting concept that will likely go unexplored with any major characters (maybe Agents of SHIELD does something, but I don't care?).

[quote="Kyrian007" post="18.1056618.24288938"Yeah, it wouldn't be the end of the MCU. It would be a fairly definitive end to The Avengers though. I found it more than a little odd that the MCU's original Avengers lived through the snap while the "dead" were made up pretty much entirely of those who came later, and who had more movies already planned. That "reversal" idea of mine was one of the first thoughts about it I had, especially after rewatching Age of Ultron and seeing that "statue" end credits sequence. It begs the question "is that a memorial statue?" The two really terrible problems with it are it are a: it kind of kills Tony's "dream sequence" vision from Age of Ultron and b: It really undercuts Hawkeye's rumored arc. Otherwise I like the idea that for the "remaining" heroes to bring back the "dead" Avengers and half of everyone else... they would also be bringing back Thanos. And, the ones that died prior to the snap would remain dead. Something that would (in one specific case especially) really be bringing back a really pissed off Thanos. Dude is a certified nightmare even without the infinity gauntlet.[/quote]

My first reaction to who survived and who didn't was...well, my first raction was "yeah, no. We already know several of these people have movies, come on," but slightly after that was that they were preserving the original Avengers for some kind of sendoff. That could take a lot of forms, but I mean...they're going to start cutting back on/killing off the earlier stars anyway, and we know that, so it makes sense for some or all of them to die. None of this is shocking to much of anyone, I'm sure.

What's eluded me is a way to make that actually interesting.

If I'm being honest, I'm not sure if I like your idea. "They were dead all along" seems somewhat anticlimactic for the second part of a big tentpole action movie, but...I also don't want to see just a boilerplate punch-up where one or more of the original Avengers dies in a predictable heroic sacrifice. I mean, that'd be okay, I guess, but they did this whole thing where we're waiting two years for the ending, and it'd be nice if there was more to it than the Avengers Assemble for one last hurrah (yay!) and someone dies (awww).

I'm also pretty sure there'd be riots in the theaters if they were dead all along. Most of all, I'm positive Marvel doesn't have the guts to be that ambitious.

The question of "do we bring back Thanos" would be cool, I admit.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

All I want is for it to come down to Steve and Tony vs Thanos.

 

[Hawki]

All I want is for it to come down to Steve and Tony vs Thanos.

Not that I particuarly care, but if Tony can't beat Thanos with the Guardians, Strange, and Spidey, why would just Steve and Stark be any better?

 

[irishda]

-snip-

Bro, just say you hate people not liking these movies and get it over with.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

-snip-

Bro, just say you hate people not liking these movies and get it over with.

I didn't care that he didn't like them, I cared that he doesn't think they should exist. He's the one who shouldn't be watching them and getting over it

 

[Kenbo Slice]

All I want is for it to come down to Steve and Tony vs Thanos.

Not that I particuarly care, but if Tony can't beat Thanos with the Guardians, Strange, and Spidey, why would just Steve and Stark be any better?

Because thematically this is the end of their stories and it makes sense for them to be the last ones standing.

 

[Hawki]

Because thematically this is the end of their stories and it makes sense for them to be the last ones standing.

That's an answer as to "why," not an answer as to "how."