What's the appeal of Visual Novels?

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
I haven't tried these, but I have a friend who loves VNs and she recommends these for mystery games that you didn't list.
I've had my eye on AI ever since it came out, but was wary based on some of the early user reviews. 428's visual style is a little out of my comfort zone. I've never heard of Root Double, but it looks cool. Analogue I've seen Steam recommend to me, but I always just ignored it for some reason.

I'll probably buy and play all of them, starting with Root Double, and doing AI last, just in the case there's a sale.

Thanks!
 

Elvis Starburst

Unprofessional Rant Artist
Legacy
Aug 9, 2011
2,739
724
118
Incorrect. Art is something that moves society forward, to an egalitarian state of being. The communist manifest is art. The bible is art. Anime, jrpg's, and visual novels are not art. In fact, they've caused society to regress, leading me to believe they are in fact "anti-art", a term I just invented.
You sound exactly like those boring old schmucks at the various movie award things like the Golden Globe Awards that seemingly refuse to acknowledge 2D animated movies as anything to do with the medium or be remotely worthy of praise... despite them being highly well rated, regarded, and beloved to a large audience of people
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,490
3,437
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
You sound exactly like those boring old schmucks at the various movie award things like the Golden Globe Awards that seemingly refuse to acknowledge 2D animated movies as anything to do with the medium or be remotely worthy of praise... despite them being highly well rated, regarded, and beloved to a large audience of people
No, his definition would actually have to make some logical sense for him to even be on that level with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Elvis Starburst

fOx

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2017
583
399
68
Country
United States
You have very weird nonsensical definitions for words that no one else uses.
Then they are using the terms incorrectly.

Users here have tried to argue that art is something that creates emotion. Yet I could take a video of me kicking a dog, and it would inspire emotion. Hopefully anger, disgust, outrage, ect. Yet I do not think anyone would call it "art." The Room may inspire laughter and mirth, and yet I do not think anyone would really call it art, either.

There must be a separation between what we call "art" and what we consider mere "expression." No one will call Birdemic a work of art. But why? I think the answer is simple. Art is something that seeks to follow a higher calling. That seeks to uplift humanity. And there is no higher calling then to uplift the human soul out if its base state, to something spiritually meaningful. A relationship with god.
 

fOx

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2017
583
399
68
Country
United States
He's clearly just fishing for a controversy, stirring up shit. Just ignore him.
How is this controversial? Multiple people in this very thread have voiced the very same opinion. An opinion that related to the threads topic. Or were people hoping for an echo chamber? The appeal of visual novels is that they inveigle players by appealing to base instincts, such as sex, or by acting as a sort of escapist fantasy, wherein the player can be told how special, unique, attractive, ect they are. But this is all false. It reduces the player to a mere consumer, and art to a mere product.

Visual Novels, as a rule, tend to have poor writing from entry level writer unfit to work in the anime or manga industries. They often use sparse art work consisting of photos with character art placed over them. The character art is typically just a base, with different facial expressions placed over them. It requires very little real talent to pull off. There are more expensive VN's, but they tend to be pornographic in nature. There has yet to be a visual novel that any serious minded critic would call "art," and, frankly, the very nature and business of the medium makes it unlikely that such a work will ever exist.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,490
3,437
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Then they are using the terms incorrectly.

Users here have tried to argue that art is something that creates emotion. Yet I could take a video of me kicking a dog, and it would inspire emotion. Hopefully anger, disgust, outrage, ect. Yet I do not think anyone would call it "art." The Room may inspire laughter and mirth, and yet I do not think anyone would really call it art, either.

There must be a separation between what we call "art" and what we consider mere "expression." No one will call Birdemic a work of art. But why? I think the answer is simple. Art is something that seeks to follow a higher calling. That seeks to uplift humanity. And there is no higher calling then to uplift the human soul out if its base state, to something spiritually meaningful. A relationship with god.
I mean if you just want to be wrong then its your call.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
26,990
11,308
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
Incorrect. Art is something that moves society forward, to an egalitarian state of being. The communist manifest is art. The bible is art. Anime, jrpg's, and visual novels are not art. In fact, they've caused society to regress, leading me to believe they are in fact "anti-art", a term I just invented.
Yeah, dude, you sound like one of those news casters from the 90s who called almost any (adult) anime porn because of a few gory scenes/nudity here or there. Or how Australian politicians that blame anime for the ills of their problems. Anime and the anime industry has its own problem, don't get me wrong, but it ain't causing all the of the world to regress. If that's the case, the same applies to the Video Game Industry, Music, TV, & Hollywood (who are an industry of constant fuck ups and covering shady shit up. Pretending their on certain peoples side when its convenient). If anything that is making things regress is those in power who care nothing, but their greed, and screw over other for not being the same race, sex, or religion. And those that defend or try portray them in the right. That is what regresses society. You also sound like the old man Roger Ebert, who claimed all video games weren't art. Only to back-paddle hard when he caused a major shit storm with either rebuttals or death threats. As much I hate(d) Ebert (Sieskel too. They are not good film critics) I would never stoop to death threats. You do sound pretentious and up your butt about it. I may not care much for the VN genre, but I do not look down on others for enjoying the genre. Pornographic or not. That would be very hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. There are VN with great stories out there. You just have to bother to find or play them.

If the soundtrack to Cowboy Bebop can get non-anime fans in to watching and loving the show or taking an interest anime, that is art. If scenes in DMC3 & 5 can make me feel something, it's fucking art. The same applies to Evil Within 2 or Killer 7. That is what happens when you have well written characters with motivations or in-universe reason for the things they do.

The series may be have many goofy moments, but when they pull serious moment. They pull it off with flying colors.



I teared up a little with Nero's scene, because of how much he cared. Lady's too, do to what she had to do to her father. The tragedy between two brothers of different ideologies. That may sound "silly" to you, me and plenty of others don't care.
 
Last edited:

fOx

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2017
583
399
68
Country
United States
Both exist, and both are beatiful.

Not that you would know that from anime, which, for the most part, wildly homophobic and transphobic.

Yeah, dude, you sound like one of those news casters from the 90s who called almost any (adult) anime porn because of a few gory scenes/nudity here or there. Or how Australian politicians that blame anime for the ills of their problems. Anime and the anime industry has its own problem, don't get me wrong, but it ain't causing all the of the world to regress. If that's the case, the same applies to the Video Game Industry, Music, TV, & Hollywood (who are an industry of constant fuck ups and covering shady shit up. Pretending their on certain peoples side when its convenient). If anything that is making things regress is those in power who care nothing, but their greed, and screw over other for not being the same race, sex, or religion. And those that defend or try portray them in the right. That is what regresses society. You also sound like the old man Roger Ebert, who claimed all video games weren't art. Only to back-paddle hard when he caused a major shit storm with either rebuttals or death threats. As much I hate(d) Ebert (Sieskel too. They are not good film critics) I would never stoop to death threats. You do sound pretentious and up your butt about it. I may not care much for the VN genre, but I do not look down on others for enjoying the genre. Pornographic or not. That would be very hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. There are VN with great stories out there. You just have to bother to find or play them.

If the soundtrack to Cowboy Bebop can get non-anime fans in to watching and loving the show or taking an interest anime, that is art. If scenes in DMC3 & 5 can make me feel something, it's fucking art. The same applies to Evil Within 2 or Killer 7. That is what happens when you have well written characters with motivations or in-universe reason for the things they do.

The series may be have many goofy moments, but when they pull serious moment. They pull it off with flying colors.



I teared up a little with Nero's scene, because of how much he cared. Lady's too, do to what she had to do to her father. The tragedy between two brothers of different ideologies. That may sound "silly" to you, me and plenty of others don't care.
I agree with your criticism of hollywood, which also produces, almost entirely, nothing but anti-art. The marvel films, for instance, are just as bad as anime. As is star wars. I view both as socially regressive. Anime actively encourages the worst in us, and is, on an individual level, destructive. Hence tye existance of hikikomori's, and otaku, who are bad at social interaction because they avoid it. On a larger scale, this is one of many factors that has led to a massive population decline. The japanese themselves are even aware of this. MEMEME! literally depicted the dangers of addiction to consumerist products, while Paranoia Agent suggested that such products were used as a way to avoid societal and personal trauma, and would lead to mass decline of japanese society.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,490
3,437
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Not that you would know that from anime, which, for the most part, wildly homophobic and transphobic.
No, not really, certainly not as much as our entertainment was. You were much more likely to see a gay stereotype in a positive roll in anime then western media. Actual trans characters are somewhat rare but they tend to have better representation in anime then western media till pretty recently. Look at Steins Gate.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
Actual trans characters are somewhat rare but they tend to have better representation in anime then western media till pretty recently. Look at Steins Gate.
Luka isn't trans in the Gates I played. He's just feminine. Or are you not referring to Luka?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bedinsis

fOx

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2017
583
399
68
Country
United States
No, not really, certainly not as much as our entertainment was. You were much more likely to see a gay stereotype in a positive roll in anime then western media. Actual trans characters are somewhat rare but they tend to have better representation in anime then western media till pretty recently. Look at Steins Gate.
Positive representation of trans characters is not common in anime. Most of them are either stereotypes, or worse, "traps," "futas," or some other concept that is either deeply bigoted or deeply fetishized. The fact that you seem to be implying that these representations are *positive* is very saddening.

Comparatively, I don't see either of these in western media today. Going back in the last 20 years they have been the minority, and in the last ten, very very rare. Homophobia is not socially acceptable in todays western world. You would have to go bsack to the 90s to find deeply offensive mainstream depictions of lgbt characters in hollywood films.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,490
3,437
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Luka isn't trans in the Gates I played. He's just feminine. Or are you not referring to Luka?
I haven't played the game, just watched the anime. The character appears to be trans in it, just maybe not in name since he is super feminine but seems to want to be a woman and is uncomfortable with being a male. But, its possible that I am miss-remembering, it has been awhile since I watched it.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
I haven't played the game, just watched the anime. The character appears to be trans in it, just maybe not in name since he is super feminine but seems to want to be a woman and is uncomfortable with being a male. But, its possible that I am miss-remembering, it has been awhile since I watched it.
That might all be true, but that's also a projection of what westerners think 'trans' is. It's like you're diagnosing him as having gender dysphoria, and therefore, he must be trans. Another culture might not see it that way. I'm not saying you're wrong or that your conclusion is wrong, mind.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,490
3,437
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Positive representation of trans characters is not common in anime. Most of them are either stereotypes, or worse, "traps," "futas," or some other concept that is either deeply bigoted or deeply fetishized. The fact that you seem to be implying that these representations are *positive* is very saddening.

Comparatively, I don't see either of these in western media today. Going back in the last 20 years they have been the minority, and in the last ten, very very rare. Homophobia is not socially acceptable in todays western world. You would have to go bsack to the 90s to find deeply offensive mainstream depictions of lgbt characters in hollywood films.
You're just wrong. There is Tiger from my hero academia who is a trans man, Lily from Zombie Land Saga is transgirl, and Bon Clay from One Piece who is one of a kind. None of these portrayals are sexualized, Tiger is pretty much just straight up heroic, Lily is from a comedy series so hers is played for a bit of comedy but only in her death, and Bon Clay might be very stereotypical but hes also leaves the badguys and helps our heroes who treat him as a friend. Compare this to Southpark or Family guy who had whole episodes about 'eww gross trans,' with an episode of South Park dedicated to Mr Garrison transitioning, including showing bloody vaginoplasty video and in family guy making fun of Glenn's dad the whole time they first thought he was gay then when they found out he was transitioning to become a woman then every other time he was ever mentioned.

It's true that finding bad representiations of lgbtq people is much rarer in western media now, but so is it in anime and it was actually less common back when we were doing it more then it is here.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,490
3,437
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
That might all be true, but that's also a projection of what westerners think 'trans' is. It's like you're diagnosing him as having gender dysphoria, and therefore, he must be trans. Another culture might not see it that way. I'm not saying you're wrong or that your conclusion is wrong, mind.
Japan has a complicated relationship with gender in ways that are different from our complicated relationship with it. Like I think that "traps" are kind of their own separate thing there, like that kind of thing has its own place, while here in the west its just a guy dressed as a woman. (or sometimes vice versa but for a woman to be in drag at this point, I think it more of requires a fake mustache or something) Keep in mind, this is just speculation from what i have observed and heard through the grape vine, I haven't really looked into it enough to give a better take than that.

I checked the wiki for Steins Gate and it looks like its complicated enough in game, that it seems like either interpretation could be valid.
 

Bedinsis

Elite Member
Legacy
Escapist +
May 29, 2014
1,446
714
118
Country
Sweden
I agree with your criticism of hollywood, which also produces, almost entirely, nothing but anti-art. The marvel films, for instance, are just as bad as anime. As is star wars. I view both as socially regressive. Anime actively encourages the worst in us, and is, on an individual level, destructive. Hence tye existance of hikikomori's, and otaku, who are bad at social interaction because they avoid it. On a larger scale, this is one of many factors that has led to a massive population decline. The japanese themselves are even aware of this. MEMEME! literally depicted the dangers of addiction to consumerist products, while Paranoia Agent suggested that such products were used as a way to avoid societal and personal trauma, and would lead to mass decline of japanese society.
Just out of curiosity: what movies would you consider actual art? I am asking for actual examples, not descriptions of what the movies must do.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,490
3,437
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Just out of curiosity: what movies would you consider actual art? I am asking for actual examples, not descriptions of what the movies must do.
He actually gave the bible and the communism manifesto as examples. He uses a weird definition for art that no one else uses.