What's Wrong With Communism?

[A random person]

Communism on paper is a great idea, but it does not translate well into reality (unless you have a very small group of people who you trust). It only takes one person who decides to take advantage of everyone else and things start going to hell.

Essentially this. I think communism could possibly work on small scales where the human aspects are manageable, but when it comes to countries it's pretty much the epitome of good in theory, bad in practice.

So really, what's wrong with Communism?

Everything. Corrupt leaders & lazy people. If you had the choice to go through 18 years of education to become a brain surgen, or 10 years to become a postman, and they pay the same because wealth is distributed, you'd sooner become a postman. Then you have a lack of skilled people in your country, the quality of life is lowered, and everyone is worse off.
In short, communism sucks.

Wow, really, read some fucking history. USSR is the reason communism doesn't work. Also see china. The only reason china is doing well is because it started to incorporate capitalism. Same thing with vietnam.

This has a lot to do with mentality though. Everyone has been out for themselves for the last milleniums so you can't expect people to adapt immideatly. If you were to try it for some 200-300 years or so perhaps people would be different. For example, communities far from the cities with a harsh climate usually has very helpful and trusting inhabitants because that's what they needed to survive. I think that most native tribes were like that before they were discovered and "civilized".This shows that human beings are not inheritently selfish. That depends on the environment where they are raised. They can adapt to being helpful if it's on their own and the communities interest. We are flock animals after all and we wouldn't be that if everyone was inherently selfish.

Also, I don't think there's anything in the books about Communism that states that everyone has to have the exact same wage all the time. If you have a graph that shows the wealth of the population you will se that it very much resembles a set of stairs were the difference between each step becomes larger the higher and further you come. The idea is that you cut a bit from the ones above the middle and give that to the lower ones the lower ones would contribute more to society.

They also define the highest steps as the ones that works the hardest and most. There are very few jobs that are actually worth less than any other job. A doctor for example has to rely on nurses and cleaners to do his job. It might look more important but he couldn't do it on his own therefore the other ones are just as important.

I might be thinking about Socialism though.

Mankind was sort of communist from the beginning. The founder of the first stone tools probably didn't charge the other tribe members for making their own. Most people that study this suggests that they had one appointed stone-tool maker that spent some of the days making stone tools and he/she got fed until their needs were satisfied.

The way things work now is that corporations runs a lot of the show and as much as one might think politicians are very inefficient CEOs aren't that much more efficient. The only real difference is that a government is a lot easier to keep track of and you can demand politicians to retire. Also, a politicians job is to make it as much of the population as happy as possible while a CEO's job is to make money for the corporation. I'd rather trust the politician. What you choose in the end, i guess, is if you prefer as many people as possible happy or if you want some people to be happier than the rest.

I think the problem with most of the communist countries to this day is that they were achieved trough armed revolutions rather than elections. The revolutionaries were the lower-class under-educated people and therefore they had no clue how to actually make this kind of government work. A lot of the well-educated people left those countries because the revolutionaries saw them as their old enemies that they wanted revenge on and they could provide for their families much better were they got paid better. You need disciplined intellectuals to make a government like this to work.

The way i see it. Communism could work if the change came slowly so people could adapt and it was worldwide so the selfish couldn't escape their duty. If mankind worked together towards creating a better world for everyone rather than just their own we could probably advance in technology faster and thus everyone could have it just as good as the CEOs have it today. It would just be a matter of time.

I would very much like comments on this so i can improve on my reasonings and find solutions to the problems you see.

Probably a bit too optimistic, but you bring up good points. People do naturally have altruistic instincts (have to say that while humans aren't perfect, they aren't crap either), and some of the problems with the USSR and China could be traced to the revolutionaries not being that educated and how sudden the new system was.

Overall, I still think a communist government is best on a small scale, some because of the communist part, but mostly because of the government part. Government is less efficient on larger scales simply because people can't manage larger scales as well. Human limitations, really.

 

[somekindarobot]

What I think is the overarching problem with communist theory is that it's just too simplistic. There are only three eras of history: ancient, feudal, and capitalist; and these were based entirely on European history of course. How would it fit into the history of, say, Polynesia? There are only two kinds of people: oppressors and the oppressed. Absolutely, positively everything is controlled by economics. Marx even had the gall to try and predict the future, and failed worse than Arthur C. Clarke. For example, the Communist Revolution should have started in the most industrialized nations first, i.e. Great Britain, not a backwater like Russia. Marx wouldn't have believed it if you went back and told him. The social, political, and economic system we have now could use some improvements, but at least it can account for the chaos that is mass human civilization.

But that's just my idea. Feel free to talk about it.

 

[Finnboghi]

If you had read the Communist manifesto instead of just listening to anti-commie propaganda you would know you could do all those things.

But how? Everything has to be shared equally... how can anyone be an individual in that situation if all is equal? That is what confuses me on the subject.

*snipped for relevance to my point*

Your individuality remains intact, and you can do as you wish, so long as everyone is equal (not the same, just equal).

dude, what is heavier a ton of Feathers or a ton of Depleted Uranium Anti-tank rounds?

a ton of feathers in reality has the same weight as the ton of Depleted Uranium Anti-tank rounds.

thusly, as ton is = to a ton, is the "same" as Same = Equal

unless you mean, A = b where the value of A is 5 and the value of b is -(-5)

ya see kids, Algebra even has it's use here in the forum.

Thank you for proving my point with such an excellent example.

As you said, a ton of feathers and a ton of depleted uranium armour piercing high explosive shells both weigh a ton.

And again, as you say, because there's a ton of each, they are equal.

But they're not the same.

They are equal.

Because there's a ton of each.

But they're not the same.

And thus concludes my argument, thanks to your excellent example of how equality does not necessitate the absence of individuality.

Thank you.

 

[UbarElite]

What's wrong with true communism? Nothing. A true communist society is a utopia. Unfortunately, the people within the system are the problem. The initial generation or 2 who start a communist society understand what they came from and the poverty they wanted to escape by making all people equal economically. Unfortunately further generations do not quite understand the problems that their society came from and couple that with the fact that a communist system is easily abused, people will eventually not have the motivation to work, or at least not work hard. Why would you spend near 10 years of training to become a doctor and have to work in such a stressing job holding fragile lives in your hands when you could do anything else for the same pay? The answer is because you want to save lives, and you will get people who do want to save lives despite the problems with becoming a doctor and the stress that job entails. However, unlike in a capitalist system, you will lose those people who would do it for the potential money involved. Similar to how in ancient Chinese dynasties further generations did not experience the revolution that was necessary to put their family in power and thus begin to decline in maintaining their nation, people will eventually forget the economic hardships they came from in a communist system and thus will not work as hard to maintain the economy.

 

[quiet_samurai]

It'a not really the actual process of communism that is bad, but the people that try and implement it. For it to really work people have to truly believe we are all truly equal and we all should contribute for one another. Now that would be nice, but it will never happen.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

Firstly, my friend, t'was a mistake to create this thread. Entirely because everyone expects me to get into it, then I do get into it, then we argue for thirty freaking pages and everyone just gets sick of it. So a bit inconvenient on my end, but whatever.

Still, you've got a question, and it shall be answered.

"What's wrong with comminism?" Is a subjective question, and peoples' answers to it will be different depending on how much money is in their wallet.

I'm not going to get into specifics because I don't want to start a flame war and it's 5:33AM and I'm tired. But in general the wealthier people in the world (America) are afraid of all their "hard work" being taken from them and given to feed starving children in Africa.

Basic information on communism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

More in-depth information from the Young Communist League of Canada:
http://ycl-ljc.ca/en/who_we_are/faq.php

The biggest argument against communism is that it doesn't work because people are selfish. Why don't we change that, then? People can change.

My philosophy on this entire topic is "When there's a will, there's a way."

you bring a smile to my face Akai. you know... some people you just can't trust them to be consistent and loyal. You my friend are like clockwork, a well oiled, predictable and repetitive clockwork. you give fanatically passionate a good rep. I could argue some of your points but like you just said, fuck it. nobody is going to change their beliefs ,its early and not worth talking over.

whats really funny is that you've talked this over with us caps so much that you can cut the shit and go strait to the point of contention. no mucking about in the principles and things. lol, just shows how much we talk about it here.

What can I say? I want a better world, and you can't have one in capitalism.

People don;t change even generation to generation it is rare to see real change in humanitys 50,000 year history there have been but a few major changes and human nature is to be greedy and do as little work as possible because if you can conserve energy and get what you need nature tells us that we have succeeded but in communism you can not have the basic instinct but all humans have it and forever will have it.

Firstly, I do not believe it is human nature or instinct to be selfish, because I know several people who are not selfish at all, either by nature or by actions.

And it is not opinion that people can change, it is a fact. And there have been mass changes in the past.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

It'a not really the actual process of communism that is bad, but the people that try and implement it. For it to really work people have to truly believe we are all truly equal and we all should contribute for one another. Now that would be nice, but it will never happen.

Then what we need to do is to find out what's wrong with the process and correct the problem, and our airship can take to the sky.

 

[Crescent Sun]

It's favorite color.

Red... everyone knows red is evil. Look at the Sith.

best. case. against. communism. ever.

Thank you! Thank you! No applause!

P.S. Will accept applause...

China's red star, USSR the Red Bear... it all makes sense *Applauds* Now we know the tell of all evil countries. We can prevent WW3

 

[cocoadog]

okay i literally just posted this in another forum but... that's what you get you get my axe of capitalism right in your face.

 

[lostclause]

It's favorite color.

Red... everyone knows red is evil. Look at the Sith.

best. case. against. communism. ever.

Thank you! Thank you! No applause!

P.S. Will accept applause...

China's red star, USSR the Red Bear... it all makes sense *Applauds* Now we know the tell of all evil countries. We can prevent WW3

The Red, white and blue? But I suppose they are one of the evil countries.

 

[angryscotsman93]

Too many Americans are afraid of it.
AND, others believe that Obama will make America a communistic society.
But, i see no problem in this. Communism is a great idea if a country already has a stable economy, and hey, free healthcare would be great. It's a great idea it's just been used wrong.

So really, what's wrong with Communism?

I don't think that the main problem is truly with Communism (though the amount of capitalist drilling into our skulls at a young age don't help much), but that the stigma lies more with the fact that we've witnessed entire countries fall apart after living under Communist governments that ended up falling apart, either because we crushed'em beneath the ever-greedy boots of Capitalism, or because their economies fell apart at some point. Anywho, the thing is this: We've seen Castro. We've seen Stalin. We've seen Mao. All of these people started out aiming for the Communist Ideal, as I'll call it: no discrimination, everybody gets the same because all are equal, etc. Feel free to correct me if I've got some mistakes, here. I'm always willing to learn. Anyways, they AIMED for these ideals- but it fell apart in the end, and we ended up staring at what we saw as a brutal, backwards dictatorship. So, this means that when people say, "Communism," we think, "Oh shit, KGB!" It's just how we're programmed.

However, you're right. Communism in of itself is a good idea, it's just that a wohle system cannot be implemented, since SOMEONE needs to take charge, and that can't be done if we're all truly equal. However, in terms of limited usage, it'd be perfect- but good luck getting a Republican to shut the fuck up and listen to your pitch...

That was meant in regards to the "Screwball" Repubs, like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, the retarded monkey-man.

 

[Crescent Sun]

The Red, white and blue? But I suppose they are one of the evil countries.

Exactly

 

[wizzerd229]

the problem with communism is the fact humans will always corupt it

 

[internetzealot1]

Because its not natural. Life is an every-man-for-himself-game, and hell if I'm gonna let some druggie leech off of my work. We only live once, so we have to make the most of it for ourselves

 

[Instant K4rma]

Communism looks great on paper, but no one has ever been able to pull it off. And its impossible for Obama to make a communistic community. True communism has no leaders.

 

[Leesee]

Theres nothing wrong with the idea its the people that put it into action that are the problem

 

[Muffinthraka]

It doesn't work. For a society to work everyone must have a job and some jobs are more difficult or demanding than others. For communism to work those with the more demanding jobs must be willing to work for the same as those with easy jobs.

 

[Ninonybox_v1legacy]

communism is a good idea IN THEORY, wealth and power distributed to all sounds great....but somehow it always ends up doing opposite. oh well

 

[red the fister]

If you had read the Communist manifesto instead of just listening to anti-commie propaganda you would know you could do all those things.

But how? Everything has to be shared equally... how can anyone be an individual in that situation if all is equal? That is what confuses me on the subject.

*snipped for relevance to my point*

Your individuality remains intact, and you can do as you wish, so long as everyone is equal (not the same, just equal).

dude, what is heavier a ton of Feathers or a ton of Depleted Uranium Anti-tank rounds?

a ton of feathers in reality has the same weight as the ton of Depleted Uranium Anti-tank rounds.

thusly, as ton is = to a ton, is the "same" as Same = Equal

unless you mean, A = b where the value of A is 5 and the value of b is -(-5)

ya see kids, Algebra even has it's use here in the forum.

Thank you for proving my point with such an excellent example.

As you said, a ton of feathers and a ton of depleted uranium armour piercing high explosive shells both weigh a ton.

And again, as you say, because there's a ton of each, they are equal.

But they're not the same.

They are equal.

Because there's a ton of each.

But they're not the same.

And thus concludes my argument, thanks to your excellent example of how equality does not necessitate the absence of individuality.

Thank you.

well played.

i should have gone with feathers in free fall vs feathers in high gravity.... /grumble

or better yet, the length that Brewmasters go through to ensure that this production run of *high quality beer* has all the same characteristics as the first vat of the same brand/stile/flavor of *high quality beer*. the brew is affected by ambient conditions that the manufactures have little to no control over.

the same is true for each generation of humans.

even if we all are indoctrinated to the same propaganda we would come out viewing it (and out place relative to it) differently. maybe your parents gave you praise when you excelled in your education (and maybe they didn't), maybe you are a personable chap who befriends others without even a hint of effort (or maybe you are an asocial prick who stumbles into friendships that just shouldn't be). maybe you are a talented, driven individual on a quest for fame and fortune (maybe you're content to be an utter failure at everything you do and simply wish to exist, supported on the backs of those who strive for perfection).

truly, to different individuals and in my opinion they are Not Equal. simply Existing does not grant Equality - the choices We make with Our lives determine our Worth and Value. and yes, as Western/Capitalist Society sees it I am of Little Value but i'm not a failure for I Strive to Excel.

we are all born equal and the same, Bloody, Wet, Filthy and Helpless beasts. then we grow into People and that's when the Equality Ends.