http://library.thinkquest.org/C002291/high/present/stats.htmMaxTheReaper said:
There is no later. Not for millions of innocent dying children.
Someone just died of hunger.
There's another.
And another.
And another.
Rest in peace.
What's Wrong With Communism?
- Thread starter GoldenCondor
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There is no later. Not for millions of innocent dying children.
Someone just died of hunger.
There's another.
And another.
And another.
Rest in peace.
I'm a dangerously honest person; if I were trying to make a communist out of you, you'd know.MaxTheReaper said:
My intentions are solely to present the facts on the matter.
Communism is bad because it breaks too easily. It just degenerates into dictatorship because some opportunist figures out how to play with people's emotions and control them. Eventually somebody becomes a dictator and doesn't rule kindly. Communism either causes the group to disband or to form a tribal/fascist society depending on the size. It really just doesn't take into account people's flaws.
Um, yeah...so do you know how much this "free" healthcare is going to cost? And while we're on that subject, have you actually studied the effects of socalized health care in countries that have it? I'm not talking acedemically, just from a lay person's perspective. It's a mess, and in poorer parts of a country the healthcare lags behind and many people suffer while the richer parts of country get better, premium care. We won't even go into the fact that many, many people are denied life saving surgies because they may not live long enough to make it worthwhile to the system or the fact that people with socialized medicine still come to America where we have some of the best hospitals in the world.GoldenCondor said:
Take it from a veteran, if you want to see socialized healthcare take a good long look at the VA because that's what we've got. Yeah private health care is insanely expensive, but if I hadn't coughed up the money and gotten away from the VA for a while the fact that I had cancer, had had it for years would not have been discovered until it had spread all the way through my body. Is that the kind of care you want to look forward to and trust your family to?
I'm not afraid of the idea of communism, but the fact of the matter is that it has never been implemented without some form of corruption and the rejection of basic human rights. There's a reason people try to flee communist countries and a reason why these countries go to extreme lengths to lock their people in. As it stands communism has never been sucessfully implemented and I really don't want to be in a 'test group' so to speak to get it right.
BTW, I don't think that about our president. He's just been an idot about certain things. Already he's changed his posiion on our troops since gaining office which doesn't surprise me. I also think he is swayed too easily by public opinion and what people whine that he should be doing for them, which can be dangerous. It's not the president's job to be popular, it's his job to lead this country and I wish to God people would remember that.
pretty much because it's different, also It's an idea that's good on paper, but a lot of things look good on paper, but end up not working the way it's intended.
Just because a government run company is sucessful, especially if it ships abroad, does not mean that the people in that country benefit. There's a big difference. Especially since most of the funds of government run companies are siphoned back into the government, not to the people or the workers who helped put it there.Agema said:
If you honestly think communism is going to solve all the world's ills then you're a very deluded idealist. Communism will never usher in an utopian society where children stop starving and people stop dying in the streets, because in the end what needs to happen is for humans to actually help eachother - not adopt a whole new political system.Akai Shizuku said:
Communism also depends on what it terms as 'equality' but it's really not - it's making everyone the same, period. Regardless of the work you do you get paid the same as everyone else, there is almost no motivation to do a well outside of personal satisfaction. Those that succeed in their positions are given more responsibility but still recieve the same amount of pay as the day laborer who sits around doing nothing all day. And you can't fire people because it's all government controled and everyone is guaranteed a job. This is why the system falls apart, why it becomes corrupted a few people start taking more and more. In the end Communism is government control, pure and simple.
I don't want to be the same as everybody else, I want to work for what I get and by the way - the majority of starving children aren't in capitlist countries that you despise so much so find a different argument against capitalism.
BTW - your avatar is disgusting and everytime I see it I can't help but think of the millions of people who died, starved or where imprisoned for nothing while it waved proudly. Sorry.
See, this is just were the entire theory of communism seems like beating a dead horse: people will never be fully equal to each other because we all have different strengths. And also, communism does encourage sameness at it's core: same pay for all jobs, no property ownership, not having anything that others don't have, never being truly rewarded for doing something well etc. In the end it either becomes corrupt or people just fail to achieve and unfortunately the former seems to happen first.Finnboghi said:
I play seven instruments and speak four languages. Let's say I have a neighbor who can't do that but knows how to design and build a house completely from the ground up. Then let's say that my other neighbor does nothing but smokes pot all day. Are we all equal from a social standpoint? Should all three of us be treated the exact same way, with the exact same pay? No.
haven't read all the replies, something might have already said this, but: communism would work fine if people didn't take advantage of the system. if humans could be fine with being equal, communism would work. but some people can't stand being equal- they have to be above others, leading to what I call Soviet Communism- that is, as Animal Farm put it, "all are equal; some are just more equal then others". so, to actually answer the question, nothing is wrong with communism- something is wrong with the people.
Communism is a fundamentally flawed system of government. It is great for a small 3rd world country just getting started because it gives people jobs and if done correctly, will substantially raise a countries GDP. This is the good part, the early years, if you will. After a communist state becomes stable workers start to realize they have lifetime jobs so there is no need to make an attempt to improve at work and thus quality of goods suffers. These shoddy goods cannot compete with those made in capitalist society an recessions and even depressions can occur. Also the same thing happens with farmers and the food supply is diminished, causing th government to either let people starve or spend millions importing food. Thus the economy falters even further and will eventually decay into ruin. That was the downfall of Soviet Russia in the 1980. Modern day communists like China saw the mistakes they made and learned their lessons. China is successful because it has found a good balance between communism and capitalism. Which I believe is a good formula for an idealist society.
Yes but having actually read the manifestoSouplex said:
Basically. The idea of being able to persue happiness basically means you have the choice to try and advance your quality of life, real communism offers no such oppourtunity as everyone is stuck at the one level of existence, there is no real point in excelling past your quota, no need to work harder than you have to, no route to greatness. I've read the manifesto front to back, the loss of the family and any semblance of formal culture are major turnoffs for me.OneBig Man said:
Yes, thank you for regurgitating all the ignorant and uneducated things that everyone else has already said. I've already refuted each and every one of your points in past posts in this God-forsaken thread and I will not do so again. You can go have a cookie now.Amoreyna said:
Why Communism blows chunks:
A Communist state, as outlined by Marx and Engels, grows out of a dictatorial regime(Socialism) where power is entrusted to an individual, who equalizes the country by stripping the "bourgeousie" of its ownership of property and the means of production and placing those things under state control.
1. So, you've debacled the monarchy and you are well underway seizing land, food, and basically anything else that can be taken and redistibuted under the auspices of furthering the revolution. When, suddenly, people are pissed off that you're taking their shit. They rebel, you slaughter them. Chalk one up for your utopian vision.
2. So, you're finished murdering various pissed off peasants, when, oh shit -- you realize you have a country to run and your band of revolutionary zealots can't hack it when it comes to accounting, or diplomacy, or basically anything other than preaching the Marxist gospel and killing non-believers. So, you set out to build up a bureaucracy in order to support your ambitious goals -- your Great Leap Forwards and 5-Year Plans. Elitist bureaucrats who run the organs of institutionalized oppression. What can go wrong?
3. So, you've institutionalized the revolution. You live in opulence. Your bureaucrats live in opulence. And your people live in utter poverty. Whoops. So, much for a classless society.
4. The niggling thing about Communism (and Socialism by default) is that it requires cooperation. Hence, Communism (community, communal, common, etc) and Socialism (society, associate, etc). People need to buy into your massive land reforms, redistribution campaigns. They need to believe in the ultimate goal -- a classless, stateless society. They need to believe that that goal will eventually be reached. And if it isn't reached, God forbid they would want to rise up from their misery through market reforms, privatization, democracy, and ending your corrupt regime.
Do I hate Communism? No. There have been various instances of small-scale, functioning communist societies around the world. Why do they work? Because people voluntarily enter and leave these communities. They truthfully believe in the mantra: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Communism is a delicate system, much more so than Capitalism, as it requires that everyone share the fruit of their labor with each other, without compensation, just the expectation that the others will do the same. And ultimately, greed isn't the sin that destroys Communism. That's just a simplistic and flawed view of the issue.
A Communist state, as outlined by Marx and Engels, grows out of a dictatorial regime(Socialism) where power is entrusted to an individual, who equalizes the country by stripping the "bourgeousie" of its ownership of property and the means of production and placing those things under state control.
1. So, you've debacled the monarchy and you are well underway seizing land, food, and basically anything else that can be taken and redistibuted under the auspices of furthering the revolution. When, suddenly, people are pissed off that you're taking their shit. They rebel, you slaughter them. Chalk one up for your utopian vision.
2. So, you're finished murdering various pissed off peasants, when, oh shit -- you realize you have a country to run and your band of revolutionary zealots can't hack it when it comes to accounting, or diplomacy, or basically anything other than preaching the Marxist gospel and killing non-believers. So, you set out to build up a bureaucracy in order to support your ambitious goals -- your Great Leap Forwards and 5-Year Plans. Elitist bureaucrats who run the organs of institutionalized oppression. What can go wrong?
3. So, you've institutionalized the revolution. You live in opulence. Your bureaucrats live in opulence. And your people live in utter poverty. Whoops. So, much for a classless society.
4. The niggling thing about Communism (and Socialism by default) is that it requires cooperation. Hence, Communism (community, communal, common, etc) and Socialism (society, associate, etc). People need to buy into your massive land reforms, redistribution campaigns. They need to believe in the ultimate goal -- a classless, stateless society. They need to believe that that goal will eventually be reached. And if it isn't reached, God forbid they would want to rise up from their misery through market reforms, privatization, democracy, and ending your corrupt regime.
Do I hate Communism? No. There have been various instances of small-scale, functioning communist societies around the world. Why do they work? Because people voluntarily enter and leave these communities. They truthfully believe in the mantra: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Communism is a delicate system, much more so than Capitalism, as it requires that everyone share the fruit of their labor with each other, without compensation, just the expectation that the others will do the same. And ultimately, greed isn't the sin that destroys Communism. That's just a simplistic and flawed view of the issue.
To be fair, most Communist leaders and bureaucrats lived pretty austerely. I think many did genuinely believe in the ethos, rather than grub around for personal gain.
I'd agree with you that the revolution manifesto looks horrific by today's terms. However, Marxism was born in a revolutionary era, a long period of demands for reform, rights, political instability and often civil wars that ran between the late 18th century and the second world war. These were major preoccupations for public leaders and intellectuals, and would heavily have influenced their thinking. In terms of Marx considering killing the bourgeoisie, this is also the period where the working classes regularly were or felt they were repressed by the state (e.g. Haymarket Massacre, Peterloo Massacre) anyway. In those terms, Marx's view of how Communism would come about was very much a product of its time. It should be fair to say that in the last 100+ years, I expect modern Communists would have refined ways to implement Communism without revolution and mass murder.
I'd agree with you that the revolution manifesto looks horrific by today's terms. However, Marxism was born in a revolutionary era, a long period of demands for reform, rights, political instability and often civil wars that ran between the late 18th century and the second world war. These were major preoccupations for public leaders and intellectuals, and would heavily have influenced their thinking. In terms of Marx considering killing the bourgeoisie, this is also the period where the working classes regularly were or felt they were repressed by the state (e.g. Haymarket Massacre, Peterloo Massacre) anyway. In those terms, Marx's view of how Communism would come about was very much a product of its time. It should be fair to say that in the last 100+ years, I expect modern Communists would have refined ways to implement Communism without revolution and mass murder.